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MSuper 22" with 1600 Wh/ 2400 Wh


OliverH

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On Facebook Wheelzworld posted pictures of the new 22" MSuper. Looks like the 18" V3 scaled up. No mudflaps.

It's mentioned to get up to 50 km/h. If we doesn't got killed by a MSuper V3 with over 40 km/h we may manage to get killed by the MSuper 22" ;)

If I look on the battery capacity I get lucky. Is this payable? It's definitely a niche product.

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52 minutes ago, OliverH said:

It's mentioned to get up to 50 km/h. If we doesn't got killed by a MSuper V3 with over 40 km/h we may manage to get killed by the MSuper 22" ;)

That's practically guaranteed as with 22" wheel at this speed the torque would be basically non-existent ... and if they're planning to re-use the current MS3 motors just with larger rims it's a recipe for (fatal) disaster :( 

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47 minutes ago, HEC said:

That's practically guaranteed as with 22" wheel at this speed the torque would be basically non-existent ... and if they're planning to re-use the current MS3 motors just with larger rims it's a recipe for (fatal) disaster :( 

Well, maybe its not totally nonexistent torque. Torque is proportional to the radius. 11/9=1.22, so the 22" might end up being about 20% weaker than the 18". 

at the same time , comparing a 14" 800w wheel with an 18" 1500w - 14/18 * 1500/800 = 1.45. So the 1500w 18" is supposed to be 1.45 times stronger than the 14" 800w

now compare 14" 800W. with 22" 1500w.  - 1.45 times stronger / 1.22 times weaker = approx,  1.18. So the 22" 1500w will have approx 20% more torque than the 14" 800, which is already pretty strong.

as long as one doesnt go too fast :) 

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45 minutes ago, Cloud said:

as long as one doesnt go too fast :) 

I was referring to the top mentioned speed of 50 Km/h where the toque will be hitting bottom for sure ;) And indeed it all depends on (unknown) torque / power characteristic of the used motor. Also having larger diameter wheel means part of the weight being distributed further from the centre of the rotation plus overall larger mass to spin (also resulting in higher momentum) so the real figures will be a bit off from purely theoretical calculations.

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5 hours ago, HEC said:

That's practically guaranteed as with 22" wheel at this speed the torque would be basically non-existent ... and if they're planning to re-use the current MS3 motors just with larger rims it's a recipe for (fatal) disaster :( 

Exactly my thoughts as I saw one picture with the rim. Bigger spokes. So likely the same motor or slightly modified, But that's speculation not based on facts. Looking forward to see first pictures and specs.

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Considering my 550W V5F+ 14" gives me stronger torque than my (now sold) 820Wh Msuper v3 I don't think the calculation is that simple. To begin with you have to consider the size of the motor, the circumference of the windings where the torque is generated (distance from wheel center axle and distance to end of tire). Also pedal position in relation to wheel center and rider weight will have different results as to how much tilt the rider can push down. On the Msuper I could stand on my toes on the front edge of the pedals and overlean is impossible at my weight on that wheel. A heavier rider might get the opposite result with the Msuper giving more torque because of being able to tilt the pedals harder. Overleaning is easy if I want to on the V5F+ it folded on me two times from accelerating too hard.

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Why not ask someone who already rides one, about large diameter wheels....

My KS18 1200W based 26" wheel has 40% greater rolling circumference, which increased the speed from 40k to 56kph.

Torque is subsequently reduced, compared to the standard 18" and appears to have greater torque than the original 18" 500W and less than the 1200W. At a guess, say equal to 700W

Its not as easy to out lean as you might first expect and I think this is due to the less leverage of standard pedals and distance from the increased diameter

the 26" is easily my favourite wheel, is in absolute cruise mode at 40/45k, it's more agile at low speed than you imagine and it's off road handling is light years ahead of smaller wheels. Beware.... Once you ride a large dia wheel, you may never want to go back.

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5 hours ago, nomad said:

Considering my 550W V5F+ 14" gives me stronger torque than my (now sold) 820Wh Msuper v3 [...] On the Msuper I could stand on my toes on the front edge of the pedals and overlean is impossible at my weight on that wheel. [...] Overleaning is easy if I want to on the V5F+ it folded on me two times from accelerating too hard.

I don't understand how you have concluded that the V5 gives you stronger torque.

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In theory, the 22" version(current V3 motors and board just with larger rims) has less torque at low speed, but has larger torque than 18" in high speed such as the chart below.
V3-18-22.gif
Purple line assumes the torque/speed chart for V3, and blue is the 22".
Above speed of 30kph, especially beyond 40kph, 22" version will be much better. Therefore, the 22" is very suitable for high speed riders. 

However, because of the large wheel, the ride only gain smaller acceleration/deceleration which will give weaker brake for the same pedal. Although one can get the pedal extended, but the sudden brake requires the movement of the feet forward briefly and backward before the brake, which is the skill unusual for most people, or impossible in an emergency. 

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6 hours ago, nomad said:

Considering my 550W V5F+ 14" gives me stronger torque than my (now sold) 820Wh Msuper v3 I don't think the calculation is that simple. To begin with you have to consider the size of the motor, the circumference of the windings where the torque is generated (distance from wheel center axle and distance to end of tire). Also pedal position in relation to wheel center and rider weight will have different results as to how much tilt the rider can push down. On the Msuper I could stand on my toes on the front edge of the pedals and overlean is impossible at my weight on that wheel. A heavier rider might get the opposite result with the Msuper giving more torque because of being able to tilt the pedals harder. Overleaning is easy if I want to on the V5F+ it folded on me two times from accelerating too hard.

That is EXACTLY how i would describe it to compare a 14" and a 18"....The torque of my KS14 to the two 18"' i have the KS14 seams a bit stronger even if the 800W 14" is much less nominal power than the 1200W or 1500W 18" wheels....for example acceleration on an incline it always feels the 14 pushes more!

Otherwise i can totally agree, that it is very easy to overlean my KS14...but i have never got my KS18 or V3 to overlean...

So for me torque is not only a "number"...for me it always has something to do with what you do with the wheel...

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8 hours ago, nomad said:

..... Also pedal position in relation to wheel center and rider weight will have different results as to how much tilt the rider can push down. On the Msuper I could stand on my toes on the front edge of the pedals and overlean is impossible at my weight on that wheel. ........

That's very true and the V3 cannot be overleaned by light rider. The size of the pedal will also limit how steep the wheel climbs slope at constant speed. In order for V3 to fully gives out the torque, a pedal extensions have to be added. 
pedal-ext.jpg

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It looks like that Wheelsworld is the launch partner for the MSuper 22" or he declared himself to be the one. He posted first pictures on facebook and also a survey for a name. As the MSuper 22" is called an invest (battery capacity) I ask myself how many of the 22" will be sold. Is this only a showcase or do Gotway get the cost of development back (Return on investment (ROI))? 

After a lot of speculation it's time for some facts. @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo any specs and power/torque diagrams? Why is the design not altered to implement a mudflap? I like to understand how Gotway defines products (own desicion or market requirement (orders up front?), customer feedback)? How do Gotway calculate the businesscase?

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6 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

@zlymex

what are the screws on the pedal mount/shim for? putting the pedal higher or with more degree?

or what? :-)

That's right, for the pedal to swing higher. I tried to use a piece of Aluminium for that but it is too soft and slippery.

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11 hours ago, zlymex said:

In theory, the 22" version(current V3 motors and board just with larger rims) has less torque at low speed, but has larger torque than 18" in high speed such as the chart below.
V3-18-22.gif
Purple line assumes the torque/speed chart for V3, and blue is the 22".
Above speed of 30kph, especially beyond 40kph, 22" version will be much better. Therefore, the 22" is very suitable for high speed riders. 

However, because of the large wheel, the ride only gain smaller acceleration/deceleration which will give weaker brake for the same pedal. Although one can get the pedal extended, but the sudden brake requires the movement of the feet forward briefly and backward before the brake, which is the skill unusual for most people, or impossible in an emergency. 

Yes, maximum Torque should be higher for the larger diameter wheel at same high linear speed as the corresponding angular speed of the larger diameter wheel will be lower. However, i believe that the larger diameter wheel also Needs higher maximum torque than the smaller diameter wheel at same high speed. So , i dont think that having more torque at higher speed makes the larger diameter wheel any safer than the smaller diameter wheel due to higher torque.i believe the only reason it is safer is that it will go over small obstacles with less impact due to the ratio of the obstacle height to the wheel radius.

5 hours ago, OliverH said:

 @Linnea Lin Gotway @Jane Mo any specs and power/torque diagrams? Why is the design not altered to implement a mudflap? I like to understand how Gotway defines products (own desicion or market requirement (orders up front?), customer feedback)? How do Gotway calculate the businesscase?

 

I love your post @OliverH

When was the last time an euc manufacturer published power/torque diagrams? :) I applaud your optimism and persistence  though :)  why no mudflap? If you dont know the answer, i could probably answer that for you :) you are asking about Gotway's marketing strategy? Are you sure you are physchologically prepared to hear the answer? :) 

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5 hours ago, Cloud said:

Yes, maximum Torque should be higher for the larger diameter wheel at same high linear speed as the corresponding angular speed of the larger diameter wheel will be lower. However, i believe that the larger diameter wheel also Needs higher maximum torque than the smaller diameter wheel at same high speed. So , i dont think that having more torque at higher speed makes the larger diameter wheel any safer than the smaller diameter wheel due to higher torque.i believe the only reason it is safer is that it will go over small obstacles with less impact due to the ratio of the obstacle height to the wheel radius.

I love your post @OliverH

When was the last time an euc manufacturer published power/torque diagrams? :) I applaud your optimism and persistence  though :)  why no mudflap? If you dont know the answer, i could probably answer that for you :) you are asking about Gotway's marketing strategy? Are you sure you are physchologically prepared to hear the answer? :) 

I've a feeling how all the manufacturer handle this. There's a different way an US or European would drive such a business. 

If I ask about things I like that someone think about. I would like to see that the EUC manufacturer would do some more scientific work. This starts with requirement engineering/ market demands, designing the product based on this, test the durability on a bench where use cases can be simulated. And the basics of designing an EUC is this power/ torque curve. Having this you can proof that it matches to your speed and load (driver weight) specifications, it defines the maximum design speed.Driving_resistance.png

Power over speed and you can simulate wind resistance, slopes, ... - all with a simpel Excel spreadsheet. This is derived from automotive. They use this to find the right gear box setup in early design steps. 

This is a demo only. I only played with numbers.

Red is the motor power over speed. The other colours are presenting the different rider loads. If the curves cross that is the theoretical maximum speed you can get on a flat road, no wind, no bumpy road. To have a safety margin you need to get back by at least 2-3 km/h, better 5 km/h.

 

edit/ I've tried to display driving/ balancing in one diagram. I need to do it different with two maps.

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11 hours ago, Cloud said:

However, i believe that the larger diameter wheel also Needs higher maximum torque than the smaller diameter wheel at same high speed.

right, the decisive variable is torque divided by wheel size.^* However, if the larger wheel is the one with the shallower slope to begin with, there is always a speed above which torque divided by wheel size overtakes the steeper graph. Diving by a larger wheel size only move this speed to the right.

^* EDIT: I believe @zlymex's intention was to plot torque divided by wheel size for the same motor with different wheel sizes, so it might be that the y-annotation was misleading. 

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I wonder what is a stable speed for a 22" wheel? A motorcycle can go up to 400 km/h, that is 10 times the speed of the currently fastest EUC, how fast is safe on an MC by the way? Now as you have a single wheel, no suspension, no mechanical brakes, no handles to hold onto and are standing up it is pretty different.. On an EUC a safe cruising speed is limited mainly by the wheel size so far.

A 14" wheel is relatively stable up to around 20 km/h. I have about 2400 km on my V5F+ so far and this number is by personal experience.

A 16" wheel is relatively stable up to about 30 km/h. I have not owned a 16" wheel so I interpolate this number and also Inmotion allows up to this speed on the V8.

An 18" wheel is relatively stable up to about 40 km/h. I had 400 km mileage on an 820Wh Msuper v3 before I sold it.

The real stable cruising speed depend mainly on the road condition but there is also other safety factord such as mainly breaking distance. Also riding comfort usually lowers cruising speed although a much higher speed would still be stable. Anyway in general usage the 14", 16" and 18" wheels are in different speed brackets that's the point I want to get across. Because some are of the opinion that there is a set speed that no wheel should ever pass completely ignoring increased wheel sizes. But then comes the bigger wheels like it or not and they go faster. The reason to increase the wheel size is after all to increase usable speed, whether it's comfortable speed or bumpy speed! If nobody wanted to go fast we would not have any wheels bigger than 14". So in real usage what speeds will people ride on a regular basis? I think it looks something like this:

14" - around 20km/h
16" - 20-30 km/h
18" - 30-40 km/h

I think these ranges are comparable in stability. To some it looks like you might fall easier on an 18" wheel at 35 km/h than on a 14" wheel at 20 km/h. But it is not the case in my experience, over 25 km/h on a 14" wheel is less stable. As long as the wheels are powerful enough to sustain the speed without setting off any alarms this is the reality not insanity. Offroad will be lower speeds of course and Msuper 18" 84V is the only wheel released so far that can go up to 40 km/h without overload!

What speed can a 22" wheel handle in comparison to the smaller wheels, the size itself that is, not torque/power etc. Is there a simple calculation for this?

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Max speed of a motorbike is crucially linked to 1) the power of its motor and 2) the gear ratio of its last gear. Similar should be true for an EUC. The decisive factors are the motor power and, given there is no gearing, its limit rotation speed. The wheel size is then only a secondary design parameter the effect of which is comparatively small and easy to understand (I would believe pretty much summed up in @zlymex's graph). 

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1 hour ago, nomad said:

An 18" wheel is relatively stable up to about 40 km/h. I had 400 km mileage on an 820Wh Msuper v3 before I sold it.

Why did you sell your V3, and what did you replace it with?

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On 10/21/2016 at 3:58 PM, zlymex said:

In theory, the 22" version(current V3 motors and board just with larger rims) has less torque at low speed, but has larger torque than 18" in high speed such as the chart below.
V3-18-22.gif
Purple line assumes the torque/speed chart for V3, and blue is the 22".
Above speed of 30kph, especially beyond 40kph, 22" version will be much better. Therefore, the 22" is very suitable for high speed riders. 

@zlymex, am I correct that the y-axis depicts torque divided by wheel diameter, i.e. acceleration force, rather than torque? Otherwise, torque at zero speed should be equal anyways.

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21 minutes ago, MoNo said:

@zlymex, I am correct that the y-axis depicts torque divided by wheel diameter, i.e. acceleration force, rather than torque? Otherwise, torque at zero speed should be equal anyways.

That's right, and that's why I quoted the word torque, and the unit is kgf(kg force, not in Nm). It is actually the torque divided by wheel radius and divided by g(=9.8).

If the kgf is equal, then we have equal ability to climb or to accelerate.

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34 minutes ago, zlymex said:

That's right, and that's why I quoted the word torque,

yeah, too subtle for me :P

34 minutes ago, zlymex said:

and the unit is kgf(kg force, not in Nm). It is actually the torque divided by wheel radius and divided by g(=9.8).

nice normalization!

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