GotWay Msuper V3 1600wh specification

[HEC]

6 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Ooh I am a full members plus!  I wonder what that means? 

Maybe it's based on the "K/D" (comms /posts) ratio? If you above 1 you're plus?

Well - probably not as @Jason McNeil have higher "K/D" but he's not "plus" ... hum

[Cloud]

2 hours ago, zlymex said:

Let me put it this way. If there is a regulation saying "People riding an EUC at over 30kph will get fined of $100", that's simple and no misunderstanding. However, if the regulation says "People riding an EUC at over 80% of power will get fined of $100", then that will be chaos, people will ask all sorts of questions such as what is power? Is that the rated power of the motor? or the max continuous power? or the power at the highest efficiency? How can I know my power? Is there a power meter on the app? Will the power meter of the police different than mine?
That's what I mean by less unknown.

If you look at the speed-torque curve, there is a strict relationship between the two, and limiting speed is effectively take the torque into account. Therefore, there is no need to further add an 'torque alarm' any more, or take the torque into account again.

As for the rider's weight, ideally every warning should be the same, that is to say, not only the speed warning should be weight dependent, but torque warning and power warning should consider weight as well, if such warnings do exist. However, detection of rider's weight is difficult, it thus depends on the rider who decide the safety margin. Gotway already implement user definable tilt speed, for which people can choose according to the weight. I also think the 3rd warning should be user definable too as mik3 has already said. 

Here is one of my lift test result, recorded by WheelLog by JumpMaster.

Some points can be drawn from the chart and the test:
1. I can lift the wheel(V3) as long as I like, if I'm not tired.
2. I can control the speed smoothly
3. The current is not very large, about 2A, and is not very much speed related at no load.
4. The power is not very large too, at about 140 Watts, and is not very much speed related at no load.
5. The 3rd alarm(5 beeps per second, or continuous) sound at 44 kph.
6. There must be a negative current(the battery was charged) when I slow down, but the WheelLog did not show that, maybe Gotway did not provide the sign.
7. I don't know the accuracy of the current, I'll test it later. Gotway exaggerate the current by 80% in V2, that is, it show 18A for 10A.
8. I have tested that the voltage obtained are very accurate.
9. The speed is relatively accurate too, with only 2% exaggeration. V2 exaggerate 8% by my test.
10. There is no current or power in Gotway's app, I hope the coming version has.

@zlymex I agree with your conclusions from the graph but totally disagree about the 3rd alarm.

torque and power are less clear to the user but they dont have to be clear. You want to provide a clear direction to the user about the 3rd alarm be ause you believe that the user should define the 3rd alarm. I believe that the user shoukd never be able to adjust the 3rd ( or whichever one is last) alarm because it defeats the entire purpose of the last alarm.  This is a fail safe, its a fool proof measure to protect the rider regardless of how stupid or erroneous the rider may be in deciding how to set the alarm.

the purpose of the first 2 alarms is for user convenience - to notify his of the speed so he can adjust his riding speed/ style based on the speed he is comfortable with.

the purpose of the 3rd ( last) alarm is to protect the user, to warn him that if he goes over it, he will faceplant. This is why it should never be user adjustable. Peole dont understand the limits of the wheel and cant be allowed to decide. If you let them decide, they will push the limits and faceplant. Of course, if there is a good tiktback mechanism that cannot be set above a vertain safe speed, them maybe the 3rd alarm could be adjustable. However, i believe that even in this case, tiltback is not a sufficient safety measure and it should work in conjuction with the non- adjustable 3rd alarm as a redundant safety measure. ( alternatively the 3rd alarm could be adjustable up to a certain value but yhe user should not be able to raise it above a certain value and not abke to turn it off). Can you imagine car manufacturers allowing the drivers to decide when the air bags should deply, or allow them to just take them out if they want to? This is not how effective safety measures work.

this being said, it wouldnt matter how clear to the user the logic of ghe 3rd alarm is as long as its safe. 

Now, you are saying that the alarm can be based on speed because speed takes torque into account due to the torque- speed curve. i dont understand this logic. Torque -speed curve only shows the relatiknship between the maximum torque at certain speed. It foes not show the dynamics of torque increase/ decrease during accelerations and breaking. Also, if the last alarm is based on speed it only addresses one unsafe scenario to aboid situations when torque is low due to high soeed. But it doesnt address all other uspnsafe scenarios, for example when a heavy rider is accelerating fast at low speed, and the wheel does not have resources ( enough torque) to accelerate so fast.  

I do agree that the 3rd alarm should also kick in at a certain speed, but its not enough ti do just that. It should be torque/ "power" dependant plus it should kick in at a certain high speed , whichever condition occurs first,

[zlymex]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

Regarding the coil windings there seems to be a very fast reacting current limit implemented in the firmware (http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/5499-motor-slippage-on-acm-and-msuper-v3/?do=findComment&comment=65201). But this 120A exceed the maximum allowed package limitation current of normaly 75A. (Or did they switch to mosfets to other packaging as the by now "normal" To-220?)

For the mosfets the limits are defined by the current, too. Dissipated power for the conducting state is I²*Rds on. So it would make sense to implement the "mosfet/overheat protection" by current limiting, too. But this could be allowed to step in "much slower" than the 120A limit.

The package limit for TO220 varies, I don't know but the largest I found(IRLB3034) for TO220 is 195A:

Also, V3 use 12 MOSFETs, that is, two in pairs and double the current limit.

[zlymex]

19 hours ago, Cloud said:

you believe that the user should define the 3rd alarm. I believe that the user shoukd never be able to adjust the 3rd

I know what the 3rd alarm is. But the 3rd alarm kicks in at 44kph, way too high to me. I'll never ride my V3 at 44kph or beyond.
That is the reason why I want to adjust it. I didn't mean to disable the 3rd alarm.

We should distinguish what it is and what it should be.
What it is? The 3rd alarm kicks in at 44kph.
What it should be? The 3rd alarm should be adjusted to lower speed value depend on user's preference and weight so that it will be more safer than what it is.
 

[Cloud]

1 minute ago, zlymex said:

I know what the 3rd alarm is. But the 3rd alarm kicks in at 44kph, way too high to me. I'll never ride my V3 at 44kph or beyond.
That is the reason why I want to adjust it. I didn't mean to disable the 3rd alarm.

We should distinguish what it is and what it should be.
What it is? The 3rd alarm kicks in at 44kph.
What it should be? The 3rd alarm should be adjusted to lower speed value depend on user's preference and weight so that it will be more safer than what it is.
 

Ok it makes sense, but why cant you use and adjust the 2nd alarm to the soeed you want? Is it adjustable?

[zlymex]

@Cloud    (my access to the forum is very slow, I had hard time to quote)

The 2nd alarm is 30kph fixed, I'd like my 3rd alarm to be 35kph most of the time.

[Cloud]

49 minutes ago, zlymex said:

@Cloud    (my access to the forum is very slow, I had hard time to quote)

The 2nd alarm is 30kph fixed, I'd like my 3rd alarm to be 35kph most of the time.

I see. 

Well then what Gotway needs to do is to make the 1st and 2nd alarms adjustable, rather than make the 3rd one adjustable

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Maybe they need to get rid of the first two alarms entirely (or make them disabled and optional as default) as they are very annoying while watching other people's videos and just set one beeping alarm judiciously at a well calculated, safe limit.  The first two "cry wolf" alarms might be making people too complacent as they are going off all the time in some videos.  

If the wheel is normally quiet throughout most of it's safe speed range and only beeps when absolutely necessary riders might be more attuned to that warning?  Add in mandatory tiltback to make it harder to push through that upper dangerous ceiling, and they might have a wheel approaching Ninebot safety levels.  Why do you think there are rarely postings about Ninebot riders face planting?  i don't think it's just because the wheel is on the slower side.  It's darn hard to keep going past 22 kph when the pedals tilt up which makes it hard to push past that speed limit.

[Cloud]

37 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Maybe they need to get rid of the first two alarms entirely (or make them disabled and optional as default) as they are very annoying while watching other people's videos and just set one beeping alarm judiciously at a well calculated, safe limit.  The first two "cry wolf" alarms might be making people too complacent as they are going off all the time in some videos.  

If the wheel is normally quiet throughout most of it's safe speed range and only beeps when absolutely necessary riders might be more attuned to that warning?  Add in mandatory tiltback to make it harder to push through that upper dangerous ceiling, and they might have a wheel approaching Ninebot safety levels.  Why do you think there are rarely postings about Ninebot riders face planting?  i don't think it's just because the wheel is on the slower side.  It's darn hard to keep going past 22 kph when the pedals tilt up which makes it hard to push past that speed limit.

Hunka, this is exactly how i always believed and said it should be like. Just one alarm meaning " this is it!" Cant ride any faster! plus the tiktback.

Right now the first 2 alarms are there by default but can be turned off if the rider wishes.

@zlymex how come in the other thread about the high speed fall, the guy says he was able to adjust the 3rd alarm? You are saying its not adjustable?

[Shoe73]

3 minutes ago, Cloud said:

Hunka, this is exactly how i always believed and said it should be like. Just one alarm meaning " this is it!" Cant ride any faster! plus the tiktback.

Right now the first 2 alarms are there by default but can be turned off if the rider wishes.

@zlymex how come in the other thread about the high speed fall, the guy says he was able to adjust the 3rd alarm? You are saying its not adjustable?

I think he was talking about adjusting the tilt back speed, that's what Gotway allows you to adjust.

I also believe alarms should not be used as a speedometer for normal riding.  An alarm means to me something is wrong, slow down!

[Chriull]

19 hours ago, zlymex said:

The package limit for TO220 varies, I don't know but the largest I found(IRLB3034) for TO220 is 195A:

Thanks for the link! I also thought that here already a link to a to220 with a package current limit of ~120A was posted, but could not find it anymore... there is quite much information hidden in the numerous posts here - but almost impossible to find...

If someone would start an EUC wikipedia, i'd assume the forum members could fill it up quite immedeately by more or less copy paste their posts from in here...

Quote

Also, V3 use 12 MOSFETs, that is, two in pairs and double the current limit.

 

That is unfortionately only half the truth... (this topic was imho also lenghtly discussed around here somwhere, somtimes long ago...)

regarding the conducting state paralleling mosfets works quite well - by the positive temperature cooefficient both mosfets share their burden as they can handle it even with some difference in specifications. They just should be "thermaly coupled" as imho @esaj mentioned.

so for this case one can reduce the power dissipation down to (almost) 1/4 per mosfet, so down to 1/2 for the pair - which is imho a great relief for the overheating problems the wheels have!

just for switching, one cannot presume that the load is divided. For a couple of tens to hundret nanoseconds (~switching time) one mosfet will have to take most/ the whole load. To ensure even load distribution some quite sophisticated feedback over both mosfets would have to be implemented - imho such a thing is by now not used for our wheels, but maybe there already exist "advanced" driver control curcuits for driving a mosfet pair perfectly synchronous?

so, without the ensured synchronicity each mosfet has to be designed to survive the whole power dissipation while switching instead of "quartering" it like the above mentioned conducting losses. This could be the by now the existing problem, why gw and kingsong have the relatively low switching frequeny and steep switching slopes (which mainly produces the PWM noise)

also (imho) the temperature for the alarm and then cut-off is measured somwhere within the compartment on the motherboard? Which gives quite some delay and by this very imprecise results. Once the air temperature in the compartment reaches the certain threshold it could already be too late for the mosfets or on the other side the ovetload situation could also be "long" over again, but the wheel still cuts off by the (deleyed) rising air temperature. By measuring with one or more temp sensors mounted at the heatsink near the mosfets, an ambient air temp sensor, the known energy which is dissipated by the mosfets the firmware could easily simulate and know the "thermal state" of the mosfets and by this issue quite precise warnings and (final) alarms.

 1st, 2nd and 3rd (speed) alarm settings:

but my first wish regarding a smarter firmware would be the speed (limit) warnings/alarms. Here we already had numerous reports from people accelerating through a not anymore happening tiltback directly into the cut-off/overlean! The firmware knows the actual speed, the needed acceleration to keep the rider stable and can easily calculate the maximum possible speed for the actual load situatin (torque/speed curve + internal power limitation). So the firmware could warn immediately once the limit is to be reached within 2-4 seconds with a dynamic tiltback and massiv/continous beeping!

 that this is not already implemented in actual firmwares is imho (one of) the biggest lapse by the manufacturers!

@Jason McNeil, maybe you could push some of the manufacturers into this direction to increase our safety while riding?

[Chriull]

19 hours ago, zlymex said:

The package limit for TO220 varies, I don't know but the largest I found(IRLB3034) for TO220 is 195A:

Also, V3 use 12 MOSFETs, that is, two in pairs and double the current limit.

 

Just have seen your other post

with the mentioning of  IRFB3207 versus IRFB4110 used in different GW motherboard versions. This was imho already posted before and there i noticed the different package current limits of 75A vs. 120A...

[esaj]

On 18.10.2016 at 6:48 AM, zlymex said:

It is from a Chinese standard file.

Sorry for a small thread hijack, but what is the JB-marking on the corner? I have a small 775 DC motor I use as spindle motor for my CNC, and it has a "JB"-logo (or maybe it's "BJ", hard to say from the logo, but one of the markings starts with "JBSD..."), and I've been trying to find the manufacturer to get more precise specs of the motor, but haven't been able to find anything with "JB Motors", "BJ motors" or such (as there are quite a lot of companies named like that). The motor in question is this (exact same markings/numbers, so they're not running serial numbers or such):

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

You could try contacting Banggood to see if they can give you their supplier info for that motor as it looks just like the one they have here:

http://www.banggood.com/12V-To-18V-11500rpm-To-18000rpm-2_2A-High-Power-775-Spindle-Motor-p-998866.html

In the last review, someone has a photo posted with the JB emblem on it.

[steve454]

13 hours ago, Chriull said:

The firmware knows the actual speed, the needed acceleration to keep the rider stable and can easily calculate the maximum possible speed for the actual load situatin (torque/speed curve + internal power limitation). So the firmware could warn immediately once the limit is to be reached within 2-4 seconds with a dynamic tiltback and massiv/continous beeping!

@Chriull I am hoping that a future firmware update will do just that.  It would lessen the chance of cutoff and maybe even eliminate cutoff completely, making the wheel much safer.

[zlymex]

On 2016/10/19 at 5:48 PM, esaj said:

Sorry for a small thread hijack, but what is the JB-marking on the corner? I have a small 775 DC motor I use as spindle motor for my CNC, and it has a "JB"-logo (or maybe it's "BJ", hard to say from the logo, but one of the markings starts with "JBSD..."), and I've been trying to find the manufacturer to get more precise specs of the motor, but haven't been able to find anything with "JB Motors", "BJ motors" or such (as there are quite a lot of companies named like that). The motor in question is this (exact same markings/numbers, so they're not running serial numbers or such):

 

That 'JB' means Ji Biao -- 机标 -- Jixie Biaozhun（机械标准）, Machinery Standard.
There are other standard abbreviations such as:
GB -- Guo Biao -- 国标 -- National Standard
JB -- Jun Biao -- 军标 -- Military Standard
ZB -- Zhuan Biao -- 专标 --- Specialized Standard

I don't know what is BJ Motor mean, probably another name for BeiJing Cars.

[Ivar Dijkstra]

On Tuesday, October 18, 2016 at 4:29 AM, Cloud said:

I also think its related to power, but a better test would be to let someone much lighter ride at the same speed and see if the alarm goes away. Slowing down and making the alarm go away kinda supports the the hypothesis that the alarm is speed related ( and simply adjusted down per different battery levels )

With the mcm4 hs I (85 kg) have the 3rd alarm at 30kmh gps. While a friend around 55kg had the alarm at 34kmh gps. If the battery drains wil the speed get lower and lower.

[pArmitage]

My, what a wingspan this wheel gets with its pedals unfolded, according to the dimensions in that chart.

[Noillek]

Hi all,

 

I'm trying to figure out the battery specs from the Msuper V3 1300Wh... based on 84v i cannot match the voltage with an exact number of batteries 18650, also the mAh.

What im trying to understand is how is the battery xSyP (how many in series and parallel). the closer that i get is 22S5P for a 3.7v 3100mAh...  my estimations, with a very basic understanding about the topic.

 

Thank you

 

Regards,

Pedro

[US69]

5 minutes ago, Noillek said:

Hi all,

 

I'm trying to figure out the battery specs from the Msuper V3 1300Wh... based on 84v i cannot match the voltage with an exact number of batteries 18650, also the mAh.

What im trying to understand is how is the battery xSyP (how many in series and parallel). the closer that i get is 22S5P for a 3.7v 3100mAh...  my estimations, with a very basic understanding about the topic.

 

Thank you

 

Regards,

Pedro

It is the same number of cells as the 1600wh!!!

120 pieces (20s6p) with a cell of 2900mah! (Instead of 3500mah for the 1600wh)

[Noillek]

1 minute ago, KingSong69 said:

It is the same number of cells as the 1600wh!!!

120 pieces (20s6p) with a cell of 2900mah! (Instead of 3500mah for the 1600wh)

Thank you @KingSong69, was duelling with this calculations that didnt add up.

[genrot1]

Hi.
ever tried realny range? I do not believe 160 km

[Dmitry]

Yes, I did. 50km for 120kg rider, 12'C, 30-40kmph. 

Note that v3s+ turns off at 60kmph, tested with real 90kg rider dressed in moto armor.

[THG]

Does anyone know if this model is sold as high-speed and high torque?

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, THG said:

Does anyone know if this model is sold as high-speed and high torque?

Only one version, but I'd love to have a high torque model.