GotWay Msuper V3 1600wh specification

[Linnea Veteran]

[mik3]

@Linnea Lin Gotway Could it be possible to make the third alarm adjustable like the tilt-back is? The default setting could be still as it is now.

[zlymex]

"Spin alarm: Shut off once being lifted over 2 seconds"

The above is not true. I can lift any Gotway EUC for over 20 seconds without shutting off

[Roll Model]

Now if we had the same chart for the other Gotway wheels we'd have something!

But it is shocking to see actual data from the manufacturer. Before you know it, customers will start expecting Specs from the seller before they buy the machines!  :~

[Tilmann]

1 hour ago, zlymex said:

"Spin alarm: Shut off once being lifted over 2 seconds"

The above is not true. I can lift any Gotway EUC for over 20 seconds without shutting off

Hi @zlymex, while I can confirm, that I can lift any of my GotWays for as long as I can hold'em level in the air without causing a shut off, I think, there might be some information "lost in translation". 

As far as I can tell, Gotway wheels (as all other wheels I know) do not detect any "off the ground" condition and do not switch off for that reason. What seems to trigger a shut off when lifting ewheels, is an overspeed condition. As it is rather difficult to hold an EUC exactly level in mid air, it typically starts speeding up in either direction very soon and arrives at a model specific cut off speed within seconds. When that speed is reached, shut down is imminent (i.e. 2 seconds from this point on sounds plausible). Hence, when doing the famous "lift test" to identify that model specific cut off speed, the objective is, to approach that limit as gradually as possible to get a precise reading exactly when that point is reached. When I was doing the "lift test" with my Msuper V3 (weight 19.7 Kg), I was using a U-formed hook to hang it under a table. That way, I can use all my strength to keep the wheel almost level while it slowly spins up to maximum speed (result: my Msuper V3 / 820Wh cuts off between 52 and 53 kph).

Anybody, who tried to hand carry an EUC up or down the stairs without switching it off before, probably went though the same experience: either it spins up until it beeps and cuts off, or you manage to keep it level enough to limit the spin speed within bounds and then put down the wheel to firm ground with a screaming tyre  (unless you're the proud owner of an Inmotion V8 with that wonderful temporary deactivate switch in the handle).

@zlymex, do you speak Mandarin by any chance? If so, could you kindly check my suspicion, that the incorrect statement "Spin alarm: Shut off once being lifted over 2 seconds" is the result of a translation flaw?

[Greg Spalding]

What is so odd is that they wouldn't fix that problem in the factory before shipping those wheels.

I mean, that is a very dangerous problem for all of the obvious reasons to those of us here

Forget that the specifications clearly state otherwise but that really goes a long way to show us that they don't put any attention on safety at that factory no matter HOW amazing their wheels are

[Tilmann]

21 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

What is so odd is that they wouldn't fix that problem in the factory before shipping those wheels.

I mean, that is a very dangerous problem for all of the obvious reasons to those of us here

Forget that the specifications clearly state otherwise but that really goes a long way to show us that they don't put any attention on safety at that factory no matter HOW amazing their wheels are

Now I'm puzzled. I just can't see much danger as a consequence of the described behavior. I'm not arguing, that tech specs should be accurate. I'm just not sure, if a real lift sensor would improve or reduce riding safety. Sensors can break or misfire. I think, I rather accept the inconvenience of a spin up before cut off than an additional circuit, that can cut the power to the motor at will. Am I missing something?

[Greg Spalding]

41 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

Now I'm puzzled. I just can't see much danger as a consequence of the described behavior. I'm not arguing, that tech specs should be accurate. I'm just not sure, if a real lift sensor would improve or reduce riding safety. Sensors can break or misfire. I think, I rather accept the inconvenience of a spin up before cut off than an additional circuit, that can cut the power to the motor at will. Am I missing something?

I do see your point I just think it's ridiculous to have to turn the wheel off every single time you picking up to walk up the flight of stairs and while Inmotion has made an underpowered under-ranged wheel in their V8 at least incorporated that switching to handle which cuts power to the wheel temporarily while you depress it

[EUCMania]

1 hour ago, Tilmann said:

Hi @zlymex, while I can confirm, that I can lift any of my GotWays for as long as I can hold'em level in the air without causing a shut off, I think, there might be some information "lost in translation". 

As far as I can tell, Gotway wheels (as all other wheels I know) do not detect any "off the ground" condition and do not switch off for that reason. What seems to trigger a shut off when lifting ewheels, is an overspeed condition. As it is rather difficult to hold an EUC exactly level in mid air, it typically starts speeding up in either direction very soon and arrives at a model specific cut off speed within seconds. When that speed is reached, shut down is imminent (i.e. 2 seconds from this point on sounds plausible). Hence, when doing the famous "lift test" to identify that model specific cut off speed, the objective is, to approach that limit as gradually as possible to get a precise reading exactly when that point is reached. When I was doing the "lift test" with my Msuper V3 (weight 19.7 Kg), I was using a U-formed hook to hang it under a table. That way, I can use all my strength to keep the wheel almost level while it slowly spins up to maximum speed (result: my Msuper V3 / 820Wh cuts off between 52 and 53 kph).

Anybody, who tried to hand carry an EUC up or down the stairs without switching it off before, probably went though the same experience: either it spins up until it beeps and cuts off, or you manage to keep it level enough to limit the spin speed within bounds and then put down the wheel to firm ground with a screaming tyre  (unless you're the proud owner of an Inmotion V8 with that wonderful temporary deactivate switch in the handle).

@zlymex, do you speak Mandarin by any chance? If so, could you kindly check my suspicion, that the incorrect statement "Spin alarm: Shut off once being lifted over 2 seconds" is the result of a translation flaw?

The behavior " spin without cut off if lift it level" is exactly how EUC works. If the gyro senses the EUC is perfectly vertical, it should not spin the wheel. Spin the wheel when tilting is detected until the tilting is corrected. 

[Tilmann]

@Greg Spalding: Agreed, that switch in the handle of the V8 looks like a nice improvement. And I hope, it's engineered to completely exclude any risk of malfunction, i.e. cause a motor shut off while riding. 

[Greg Spalding]

Just now, Tilmann said:

@Greg Spalding: Agreed, that switch in the handle of the V8 looks like a nice improvement. And I hope, it's engineered to completely exclude any risk of malfunction, i.e. cause a motor shut off while riding. 

the best of all

that would STINK

1 minute ago, EUCMania said:

The behavior " spin without cut off if lift it level" is exactly how EUC works. If the gyro senses the EUC is perfectly vertical, it should not spin the wheel. Spin the wheel when tilting is detected until the tilting is corrected. 

i understand

makes sense to me

thanks for the education

[xebeche]

6 minutes ago, Tilmann said:

@Greg Spalding: Agreed, that switch in the handle of the V8 looks like a nice improvement. And I hope, it's engineered to completely exclude any risk of malfunction, i.e. cause a motor shut off while riding. 

Switch on V8 (and V5) only works if the wheel is not moving, or is moving very very slowly. You also have the option to completely disable it in the app.

[houseofjob]

55 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

I just think it's ridiculous to have to turn the wheel off every single time you picking up to walk up the flight of stairs and while Inmotion has made an underpowered under-ranged wheel in their V8 at least incorporated that switching to handle which cuts power to the wheel temporarily while you depress it

Greg, wheel handle disengage is a relatively new feature to EUCs to begin with (it's only been implemented in the InMotion EUCs and the Ninebot S2 AFAIK).

Being a copycat market, and if history dictates correctly, a performance focused EUC company like Gotway will adopt / copy such details in their next season's line (example: the MSuper2 had no lights to speak of > KingSong comes to the market and basically carbon copies Gotway's tech, adding safety features like headlights, brake lights, tiltback > now the new MSuper3 EUCs sport headlights, brake lights and tiltback)

39 minutes ago, xebeche said:

Switch on V8 (and V5) only works if the wheel is not moving, or is moving very very slowly. You also have the option to completely disable it in the app.

@Tilmann @xebeche Let me clean this up; the handle disengage on both InMotion wheels works only if the wheel is idle or under a certain speed threshold (I've tested this on my V8..... can't find a proper spec, but it feels to be ~5kph or lower). The Ninebot One S2/A1 handle disengage has a similar threshold.

Edited October 17, 2016 by houseofjob

[16bitSprite]

It would be pretty easy to install a custom momentary cut off switch on the underside of the handle. However as for me Id rather just to press the normal power button before lifting. Keeps the wheel looking slick. ?

[Cloud]

8 hours ago, Linnea Lin Gotway said:

Kudos to Gotway to listening to some of our suggestions and including more specific info ( like the riders weight at which the maximum climbing angle is measured, or speed at which the max range is measured. Gotway is on the right track.

A few things worth noting and also things that id like some clarification on:

1. The reported Safe crusing speed seems to have been reduced from the earlier communicated 40kmh for 820wh/1640wh 67.2V version Msuper3  to 30kmh for 1600wh 84V version if i am reading the specs correctly. Not sure why since the 84v version was slated as having more torque. Perhaps Gotway is tying to be super conservative, which may not be a bad thing for their sake.

2. It would be good to know at which speed the 3rd alarm comes in ( or perhaps it is a floating alarm (80% of max power) depending on the riders weight and conditions?)

3. Cruising range is indicated at 160km for 70kg rider in real life test - i am not sure this is possible with the battery cells indicated - i am 100kg and my KS14 with 820wh gets me 25 mikes max. 1600 would get me 50miles max, and in reality probably less. If i was 0.7 times lighter, id get around 71 miles but not 100 miles. For another reference, a 60kg person i know rides 35miles on 680wh KS14.  1600wh would give him about 82miles. 

6 hours ago, zlymex said:

"Spin alarm: Shut off once being lifted over 2 seconds"

The above is not true. I can lift any Gotway EUC for over 20 seconds without shutting off

I believe Linnea simply meant that if you lift the wheel and tilt it and let it spin free up to the max speed, the cut off will occur approx. 2 seconds after. 

Of course if you lift the wheel and dont tilt it there will be no cut off as the wheel doesnt know uts been lifted.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Cloud

[Greg Spalding]

1 hour ago, houseofjob said:

Greg, wheel handle disengage is a relatively new feature to EUCs to begin with (it's only been implemented in the InMotion EUCs and the Ninebot S2 AFAIK).

Being a copycat market, and if history dictates correctly, a performance focused EUC company like Gotway will adopt / copy such details in their next season's line (example: the MSuper2 had no lights to speak of > KingSong comes to the market and basically carbon copies Gotway's tech, adding safety features like headlights, brake lights, tiltback > now the new MSuper3 EUCs sport headlights, brake lights and tiltback)

i appreciate more of this history of this new device category i have come to love and appreciate 

educating me is, as always, much appreciated 

thank you

i can't wait to see where the very near future will take us

again.... thanks

[zlymex]

5 hours ago, Tilmann said:

@zlymex, do you speak Mandarin by any chance? If so, could you kindly check my suspicion, that the incorrect statement "Spin alarm: Shut off once being lifted over 2 seconds" is the result of a translation flaw?

Yes, Mandarin is my mother tongue, I checked and find no spec for V3s+ in Chinese as it is meant for oversea market only. I also checked the spec for V3 in Chinese, there is no such entry in the spec either. And I cannot find either spec or entry in the spec in Chinese for MCM4, MSuperV2 and ACM16.

You are absolute correct on the detection of the cut off mechanism, Gotway know that too for sure. 

When doing a lift test, the "footrest lifting speed" must be shut off in order to obtain a gradual speed increase up to 50kph. However, I found no difference(or not much difference) to reach max speed whether the lift is slow or fast. I always get around 53.5 for my V3(67.2V/820Wh, new version) and around 52.5 for my V3(67.2V/820Wh, old version).

[zlymex]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

1. The reported Safe crusing speed seems to have been reduced from the earlier communicated 40kmh for 820wh/1640wh 67.2V version Msuper3  to 30kmh for 1600wh 84V version if i am reading the specs correctly. Not sure why since the 84v version was slated as having more torque. Perhaps Gotway is tying to be super conservative, which may not be a bad thing for their sake.

I think the 3rd alarm(used to be  80% of power) is delete in the spec because it is wrong. Gotway don't know the instant power(either in the EUC nor in app), how comes this 80% of power? By lift test(and the power in this condition is very small), the third alarm is always sound at 38kph(old version) or 44(new version), therefore, the 3rd alarm is a speed related alarm not power related alarm.

The torque(at low speed) is proportional to the armature current, and the armature current must be limited in the EUC in the case of near stall condition otherwise either the motor or the MOSFETs get fried. The 12 MOSFET version do have large current potential but the large motor(1500W for V3 and ACM instead of 1000W for V2) cancelling out  the torque. Therefore, we don't see much torque increase in the spec for V3s+.

[Cloud]

2 minutes ago, zlymex said:

I think the 3rd alarm(used to be  80% of power) is delete in the spec because it is wrong. Gotway don't know the instant power(either in the EUC nor in app), how comes this 80% of power? By lift test(and the power in this condition is very small), the third alarm is always sound at 38kph(old version) or 44(new version), therefore, the 3rd alarm is a speed related alarm not power related alarm.

The torque(at low speed) is proportional to the armature current, and the armature current must be limited in the EUC in the case of near stall condition otherwise either the motor or the MOSFETs get fried. The 12 MOSFET version do have large current potential but the large motor(1500W for V3 and ACM instead of 1000W for V2) cancelling out  the torque. Therefore, we don't see much torque increase in the spec for V3s+.

My understanding was ( and maybe i was wrong) that gotway sounds the 3rd alarm at 80% of the maximum Amps x Volts of sustained power ( not maximum possible momentary power) . Ok so during the lift test the third alarm sounds at 44kmh, but why isnt it possible that the 3rd alarm is still variable per power consumption up to a certain max speed (44?) . Also, power consumption may not be that small considering that you are accelerating the wheel which requires a raise in the consumed Amperes?

ok, so you are saying that the software caps the current in the stall conditions. But this would be a high momentary current. So in momentary high current demad situations i understand that msuper3 may not have an advantage over msuper2, but msuper 3 may still have an advantage in torque in sutuations where sustained performance at high torque is required? ( for example suring a slow steep hill climb?)

[zlymex]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

My understanding was ( and maybe i was wrong) that gotway sounds the 3rd alarm at 80% of the maximum Amps x Volts of sustained power ( not maximum possible momentary power) . Ok so during the lift test the third alarm sounds at 44kmh, but why isnt it possible that the 3rd alarm is still variable per power consumption up to a certain max speed (44?) . Also, power consumption may not be that small considering that you are accelerating the wheel which requires a raise in the consumed Amperes?

ok, so you are saying that the software caps the current in the stall conditions. But this would be a high momentary current. So in momentary high current demad situations i understand that msuper3 may not have an advantage over msuper2, but msuper 3 may still have an advantage in torque in sutuations where sustained performance at high torque is required? ( for example suring a slow steep hill climb?)

The 3rd alarm is either a power related or speed related. I think at somewhere Linnea said the 3rd alarm is independent of the battery status, that's already indicate it is a speed related alarm. The "80% of power" is an very old saying from Gotway ever since MCM2 and there is no current sensor chip in that ECU.That "maximum Amps" is undefined by Gotway or unknown by riders. Further more, even if it is a 80% power, the safty margin is too small.

It is also my opinion that increase the 3rd alarm from 38kph to 44kph is a improper thing because normally people should avoid riding an EUC beyond 40kph.

The current limits by firmware may well be time dependant(say limit is higher momentarily), but definitly there are limits. I've measure the armature DC resistance of V3 motor to be less than 0.1 Ohm, it will run to several handreds amps if no limit in stall condition. I have tested that V3 has larger torque than V2 MS, but not as large as the ratio of 1500W to 1000W should be. Also, V3+(84V) seems to have larger torque than V3 as well but not as large as the ratio of 84V to 67.2V should be.

[zlymex]

1 hour ago, Cloud said:

Also, power consumption may not be that small considering that you are accelerating the wheel which requires a raise in the consumed Amperes?

Power consumption is very small as I can read the amp from Wheellog, and I can lift the EUC at a relatively constant speed, no fast accelerating, I even de-accelerate during the test. I'll show you my test graph later.

[Marty Backe]

3 minutes ago, zlymex said:

The 3rd alarm is either a power related or speed related. I think at somewhere Linnea said the 3rd alarm is independent of the battery status, that's already indicate it is a speed related alarm. The "80% of power" is an very old saying from Gotway ever since MCM2 and there is no current sensor chip in that ECU.That "maximum Amps" is undefined by Gotway or unknown by riders. Further more, even if it is a 80% power, the safty margin is too small.

<snip>

I believe the 3rd alarm is related to power at some level, based on emperical evidence.

• 1st alarm - 1 beep
• 2nd alarm - 2 beeps
• 3rd alarm - 3 beeps

On my MSuper and ACM I have the first two turned off, so I never hear them.

I normally never hear the 3rd alarm because I don't ride at extreme speeds. But whenever my battery level drops under 20% under load, I start getting the 3rd alarm until I reduce my load (i.e., slow down). As my battery gets lower and lower, the speed that I need to limit myself to gets lower and lower.

[Cloud]

14 minutes ago, zlymex said:

The 3rd alarm is either a power related or speed related. I think at somewhere Linnea said the 3rd alarm is independent of the battery status, that's already indicate it is a speed related alarm. The "80% of power" is an very old saying from Gotway ever since MCM2 and there is no current sensor chip in that ECU.That "maximum Amps" is undefined by Gotway or unknown by riders. Further more, even if it is a 80% power, the safty margin is too small.

It is also my opinion that increase the 3rd alarm from 38kph to 44kph is a improper thing because normally people should avoid riding an EUC beyond 40kph.

I dont mean to argue, and the alarm may very well turn out to be speed related, but just because Linnea said the 3rd alarm is not based on the battery status doesnt mean its not based on volts or amperes. This statement can mean so many things.

my opinion is that when Linnea said the 3rd alarm is not based on the battery status, she meant : the alarm does not kick in based on the remaining battery capacity.   (As opposed to low battery beeps/ alarms) 

This alarm may still indirectly be related to the battery voltage and the current demand.

also, just because thr "maximum amps" value that  Gotway considers maximum is unkniwn to us and not indicated in the specs by Gotway doesnt mean that there isnt a certain value Gotway consideres the maximum. Perhaps it is the maximum sustained wheel power ( which can be derived from the torque/revolutions curve for the motor). I am sure the motor factory knows the maximum piwer the motor can produce under sustained load.

 

 

[Cloud]

6 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I believe the 3rd alarm is related to power at some level, based on emperical evidence.

• 1st alarm - 1 beep
• 2nd alarm - 2 beeps
• 3rd alarm - 3 beeps

On my MSuper and ACM I have the first two turned off, so I never hear them.

I normally never hear the 3rd alarm because I don't ride at extreme speeds. But whenever my battery level drops under 20% under load, I start getting the 3rd alarm until I reduce my load (i.e., slow down). As my battery gets lower and lower, the speed that I need to limit myself to gets lower and lower.

I also think its related to power, but a better test would be to let someone much lighter ride at the same speed and see if the alarm goes away. Slowing down and making the alarm go away kinda supports the the hypothesis that the alarm is speed related ( and simply adjusted down per different battery levels )

[zlymex]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

• 1st alarm - 1 beep
• 2nd alarm - 2 beeps
• 3rd alarm - 3 beeps

There is no such speed alarm as 1 beep per second. We get one occasionally because it is an incomplete 2 beeps per second alarm.   There is a 1 beep per second alarm, that is a low battery warning.

Therefore, 1st alam - 2 beeps, 2nd alarm - 3 beeps, 3rd alarm - 5 beeps(continuous). 

6 minutes ago, Cloud said:

a better test would be to let someone much lighter ride at the same speed

Better still, a lift test, at least for 1st and 2nd alarm.