Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 17 minutes ago, Chris Westland said: Osmos (France) has done a great deal to promote adoption of hubless products, and has many ideas presented on their site. This might suggest ways to develop EUC's that are hubless. What do they propose how to do the mechanical drive transmission to the wheel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyiu00 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 To me, making the wheel super thin is already enough. No need to be hubless. A super thin 18 inch that weight less than 5 kg with 1kW continuous power for steep hills and 50km milage with ultra capacitor redundant protection will be near perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I guess the question is whether abandoning the hub is a technological necessity to build a 5kg 1kw 18" wheel. My feeling is that it might well be, but I don't have really deep technological insight. I will take the 16" variant of this wheel though. I think only the battery for 50km mileage weighs currently already 3+kg, so we are quite far away from this device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyiu00 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I think hubless requires more complex mechanical design which for sure will be more heavy and will defeat the original simplicity purpose of a euc. Complex mechanical system will certainly reduce reliability and increase maintenance cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 My hunch is that gear wheels are lighter than magnets and copper. The announced weight for the Orbit seemed to suggest the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyiu00 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 35 minutes ago, MoNo said: My hunch is that gear wheels are lighter than magnets and copper. The announced weight for the Orbit seemed to suggest the same. That could be true for the current technology. E-scooter has been using geared motors. But you can just use gear box or chains, there is still no need to go hubless. But someone already made a geared euc before and it wasn't very successful as it will be hard to maintan balance because the motor has to turn both ways very quickly to maintain balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyiu00 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, MoNo said: I think only the battery for 50km mileage weighs currently already 3+kg, so we are quite far away from this device. Yes, I do not expect this to happen tomorrow. But we users just need to keep buying new wheels to keep the money running, and in 5 - 10 years from now, that might not be a dream anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 14 hours ago, MoNo said: What do they propose how to do the mechanical drive transmission to the wheel? Osmos touts "unsprung mass" which would translate to light weight for an EUC. Their website gives the general description of the mechanics, then they have a number of pages of projects in various fields that use their tech: Idea : Reduce the rotating part to a bare minimum. Principle : A bearing with a thin section and large diameter (about 300 mm). The rotating part: a tyre, a centre-free rim and a brake ring all integral with the rotating outer ring of the bearing. The fixed part: the non-rotating inner ring of the bearing on which the vehicle's steering system is directly attached. Result : An empty wheel that is free of midwheel structural constraints and that presents a series of advantages and technological breakthroughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16bitSprite Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 6 hours ago, MoNo said: I assume the problem is to make the mechanical connection between motor and wheel, the transmission. It might be really difficult to come up with a transmission which is reliable and free of play, let alone noiseless. One of the more difficult decisions is whether and how to protect the transmission from dirt. Otherwise, I would assume this design saves quite some weight, as the motor can be much smaller. A possible solution (which had been dismissed by some commenters in this forum): Is it just me or do the people using this look like they are sort of struggling to keep the front wheel steady? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I didn't notice anything. I would be concerned about the unsupported areas, and landing too hard on them might warp the wheel. I guess the rim has to be super tough to resist deformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik's Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 5 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: I didn't notice anything. I would be concerned about the unsupported areas, and landing too hard on them might warp the wheel. I guess the rim has to be super tough to resist deformation. Another gripe is all those real-life conditions like mud and road debris... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
16bitSprite Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Maybe each wobble is a little more noticeable with the set up they are using then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik's Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 4 hours ago, 16bitSprite said: Is it just me or do the people using this look like they are sort of struggling to keep the front wheel steady? Don't think that it's just you. Frontwheel mounted solutions (common on cheaper bikes and DIY) are prone to traction problems at low speeds. "Water skiing"-effect is there just like on fwd-cars.... Me not likey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 On 23/10/2016 at 6:37 AM, Chris Westland said: @hyiu00 why do you think that Inmotion is moving in the right direction, and others aren't? Does Inmotion have R&D resources that the others lack? Inmotion's products look good, but I have no experience with them; I actually like what IPS is doing also (though it seems small scale, since they needed some sort of kickstarter funding to initiate the IPS ZERO project). Just wondering what you know that we don't. Inmotion is big. And I mean BIG! Comparing to them almost any other of the current EUC manufacturers (that includes GW and KS) are basically mum's & pop's garage shop. They're really big in China for several years and they have a big range of self balancing devices (apart of well knows V3, V5 and V8) as well as other electric mobility devices like scooters and so on. Just few days ago in the "social section" of the Inmotion mobile app (which you can download and use even without having any product registered with them) there was a picture from distribution with boxes and boxes of one of the new electric scooters and just at first glance you can see the difference to pictures or videos from visits to GW, KS and other "factories" (basically some old warehouse with couple of shelves and two three guys assembling wheel from E-bike parts) - it's such massive difference. And they're indeed backed by R&D which is shared / used across all their products. While their main market is still in China / Asia they've been expanding quite rapidly to the rest of the world in past 2 years and become more known brad worldwide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, HEC said: Inmotion is big. And I mean BIG! Comparing to them almost any other of the current EUC manufacturers (that includes GW and KS) are basically mum's & pop's garage shop. They're really big in China for several years and they have a big range of self balancing devices (apart of well knows V3, V5 and V8) as well as other electric mobility devices like scooters and so on. Just few days ago in the "social section" of the Inmotion mobile app (which you can download and use even without having any product registered with them) there was a picture from distribution with boxes and boxes of one of the new electric scooters and just at first glance you can see the difference to pictures or videos from visits to GW, KS and other "factories" (basically some old warehouse with couple of shelves and two three guys assembling wheel from E-bike parts) - it's such massive difference. And they're indeed backed by R&D which is shared / used across all their products. i'd still like to know WHEN and IF they will ever put a larger battery in a wheel to give users more range? they should have done that already..... otherwise wheels like the V8 seem to be more for tricks than travel (they should make a "BETTER MSuper," etc) IMHO, of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 11 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said: i'd still like to know WHEN and IF they will ever put a larger battery in a wheel to give users more range? they should have done that already..... otherwise wheels like the V8 seem to be more for tricks than travel (they should make a "BETTER MSuper," etc) IMHO, of course Well - 32 Km is IMO plenty for large / tall / heavy "westerner". At "safe" cruising speeds with some slowdowns and stops at crossing or light it takes about 1.5h to drive such distance and anything beyond that would become soon uncomfortable for a regular commuting I'd say. So worst case scenario if your one way trip is over the half of the max distance just purchase second charger and keep in the office (if you allowed to keep and charge the EUC there indeed). For my commute I can make both trips on once charge even with occasional "detour" via grocery shop. If you need to commute anything more than that maybe EUC is not the best option? You can indeed get KS-16 or some of the GW wheels but frankly standing on EUC several hours twice a day (leaving aside the weather - which most likely is not concern for you ) is quite a strain. I do enjoy my morning and afternoon / evening "strolls" on EUC from / to work despite changeable weather and I can now ride (for leisure) for 2 or 3 hours without suffering foot pain (maybe with one short break) but I can't imagine myself making regular long rides like this. But I do agree that for leisure rides I DO miss the range as I'm "spoiled" by almost the double (or at least extra 70 - 75%) of range with KS-16 and I'm now unable to make my "regular" weekend ride without swapping battery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 minutes ago, HEC said: Well - 32 Km is IMO plenty for large / tall / heavy "westerner". At "safe" cruising speeds with some slowdowns and stops at crossing or light it takes about 1.5h to drive such distance and anything beyond that would become soon uncomfortable for a regular commuting I'd say. So worst case scenario if your one way trip is over the half of the max distance just purchase second charger and keep in the office (if you allowed to keep and charge the EUC there indeed). For my commute I can make both trips on once charge even with occasional "detour" via grocery shop. If you need to commute anything more than that maybe EUC is not the best option? You can indeed get KS-16 or some of the GW wheels but frankly standing on EUC several hours twice a day (leaving aside the weather - which most likely is not concern for you ) is quite a strain. I do enjoy my morning and afternoon / evening "strolls" on EUC from / to work despite changeable weather and I can now ride (for leisure) for 2 or 3 hours without suffering foot pain (maybe with one short break) but I can't imagine myself making regular long rides like this. i do appreciate your thoughts about this i just like a "CUSHION" when it comes to battery power i wish Inmotion had designed the V8 to have a 680Wh battery as an option (it didn't have to have an 820Wh one) love the TALL/HEAVY "westerner" comment i'm ONE of those..... but NOT the GOOD one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 I don't think it's only about the range. It's also about reducing the likelihood of unintended motor cut off (or is it just loss of torque?). Voltage drops from partially depleted batteries as well as the voltage drop from sudden current spikes (when high torque is demanded). As I understand, having multiple battery packs wired up in parallel helps reduce the voltage drop during current spikes. Of course I could be wrong entirely with my understanding. Someone please correct me if so. That said, I'm still probably going to sell my 820 Wh ACM because I like riding my 480 Wh V8 much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 14 minutes ago, HEC said: it takes about 1.5h to drive such distance and anything beyond that would become soon uncomfortable for a regular commuting I'd say Exactly right. 15 minutes ago, HEC said: I'm now unable to make my "regular" weekend ride without swapping battery. Interesting, does that mean that you do swap battery during a trip with the V8? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said: i wish Inmotion had designed the V8 to have a 680Wh battery as an option (it didn't have to have an 820Wh one) I believe @Jason McNeil is already "lobbying" IM for a "V8+" model with 60 cells and external handle (à la V5) which would then have 720Wh and almost the same range as KS-16 (due slightly better efficiency). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 10 hours ago, hyiu00 said: Yes, I do not expect this to happen tomorrow. But we users just need to keep buying new wheels to keep the money running, and in 5 - 10 years from now, that might not be a dream anymore. When it comes to battery development, buying EUCs is very unlikely to have any visible effect at all any time soon. The progression of battery technology will not be driven by EUC sells any time soon, because the markets for mobil phones, electric cars, and electric bikes will remain way larger for quite some time. That is actually good news, because we get the battery R&D for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 24, 2016 Author Share Posted October 24, 2016 9 minutes ago, HEC said: I believe @Jason McNeil is already "lobbying" IM for a "V8+" model with 60 cells and external handle (à la V5) which would then have 720Wh and almost the same range as KS-16 (due slightly better efficiency). I don't understand why all the hate on the V8 handle (I'm assuming you mean the trolley) by almost everyone. Looks like I'm the only one that think it's "just fine". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 6 hours ago, 16bitSprite said: Is it just me or do the people using this look like they are sort of struggling to keep the front wheel steady? It does look a little bit like that. I can imagine the feeling is strange. I guess one would have to try to find out whether it gives a comfortable and safe ride after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 31 minutes ago, John Eucist said: That said, I'm still probably going to sell my ACM 820 Wh because I like my V8 480 Wh so much more. having a lighter wheel in one's arsenal is always a great idea no question about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Spalding Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 51 minutes ago, HEC said: But I do agree that for leisure rides I DO miss the range as I'm "spoiled" by almost the double (or at least extra 70 - 75%) of range with KS-16 and I'm now unable to make my "regular" weekend ride without swapping battery. i spend more time (or almost all of my time) in Leisure riding and..... at 85KG.... NUDE.... LOL... battery power is important to ME, personally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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