hyiu00 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 As Xiaomi taking over the Segway patents, it also puts an end to the much needed R&D effort (such as battery and motor technologies) for such an immature product like the euc and other self-balancing vehicles. China's copyright laws just discourage innovation. It is okay to put design effort of refrigerators or TVs in China, but the market is going in the wrong direction when such an immature product is being designed in China. There should be a full spectrum of products in the markets for it to extend its life cycles, the cheap and not so reliable ones and the high end high safety ones, but now we only have the cheap side mostly. Inmotion is going in the right direction, but just one of them is not enough. The others just look depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 @hyiu00 why do you think that Inmotion is moving in the right direction, and others aren't? Does Inmotion have R&D resources that the others lack? Inmotion's products look good, but I have no experience with them; I actually like what IPS is doing also (though it seems small scale, since they needed some sort of kickstarter funding to initiate the IPS ZERO project). Just wondering what you know that we don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyiu00 Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 To me as a user I just look at their products. Inmotion at this point in time seems to have more advance products like the V5 and V8. The others might have a lot of R&D behind the scene, but if they are developing new products, I see no reason why they do not announce them to keep us hungry. Funding R&D in China will be difficult as there are copycat everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 37 minutes ago, hyiu00 said: To me as a user I just look at their products. Inmotion at this point in time seems to have more advance products like the V5 and V8. The others might have a lot of R&D behind the scene, but if they are developing new products, I see no reason why they do not announce them to keep us hungry. Funding R&D in China will be difficult as there are copycat everywhere. Copycats are a problem. In the end the customer likes to receive support (defects, fixed firmware, improvements). If some/ one of the manufacturer get the story how things are running over here they get a good customer base. If we look forward to regulations a manufacturer with a stable sales channel, service Center (e.g @1RadWerkstatt ), a much more better customer support a customer wouldn't try to save a couple of bucks. Today a future customer reading here could think: Why should I spend so much money for a high price EUC which could have problems with worn out pedal arms/ loosing nuts of the axle/ pedal arm, broken Hall sensors of the motor, fried Mainboards (blown mosfets), fuses releasing to early and being unsafe, buggy firmware and maximum speed being unsafe? This original builds are not tested and not designed properly in a scientific/ engineering manner I would spend some extra money and keep a loyal customer if I get a safe EUC, well designed and compliant to PLEV standard. But this would need a big mind move at current manufacturer. Not sure if this could only happen with new actors coming to the EUC market with more maturity because having a more engineering background and real experience in international sales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardmech Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 On 10/19/2016 at 2:21 AM, Chris Westland said: I've been curious about the particular motors used in EUC's. The most interesting developments in small motors relate to the TT Zero and other motorcycle races, that use motors like the Briggs & Stratton Etek. Victory, for example, started racing this year http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/20/victory-motorcycles-electric-bike-tt-zero/ and I believe has a commercial product planned. This sort of high-torque application, along with the control and regenerative circuitry would help EUCs a lot. I'm not sure if the price tag would be right, but it would certainly make sense to piggyback on the technology from a wealthier market. The EUC hub motors are terrible, there's multiple ways to drastically improve them but none of the manufacturers are willing to build new ones rather than recycling old ebike designs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 3 hours ago, lizardmech said: The EUC hub motors are terrible, there's multiple ways to drastically improve them but none of the manufacturers are willing to build new ones rather than recycling old ebike designs. Invest money would come into game if someone could show up a target design and a business plan. But modifying the motor would a second priority for me. First of all is control system with harness/ battery compliant to PLEV. Volumes are currently to low to get a different motor design (eliminating the eBike axle/ shaft) with high power density. The EUC design must grow/ make evolutions step by step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 6 hours ago, lizardmech said: The EUC hub motors are terrible, there's multiple ways to drastically improve them Can you be more specific? How can they be drastically improved and what are the obstacles that this hasn't been done so far? Quote but none of the manufacturers are willing to build new ones rather than recycling old ebike designs. I was under the impression that Inmotion is using motors designed by themselves, but I could be entirely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 6 hours ago, lizardmech said: The EUC hub motors are terrible, there's multiple ways to drastically improve them but none of the manufacturers are willing to build new ones rather than recycling old ebike designs. I am surprised that EUC manufacturers aren't using the Lynch / Etek motors, and learning about motor control from motorcycles like Zero and Lightening. B&S's Eteks seem to retail at ~$400, so they should be affordable for EUCs. EUCs may not comprise a huge market, but I'm sure it is bigger by volume than Electric Motorcycles. Better motors and BMS allow smaller batteries, higher torque, lighter EUCs and longer range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 To my understanding is a current major constraint with EUCs that they avoid gearing/transmission. That, I guess, puts quite drastic limits on the motor's specification, in particular on motor rotational speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, MoNo said: To my understanding is a current major constraint with EUCs that they avoid gearing/transmission. That, I guess, puts quite drastic limits on the motor's specification, in particular motor rotational speed. I can see why .... Rockwheel I think uses gears and is fast, but noisy. Gears can get dirty, and there will always be play in the gears (which is not good for an inverted pendulum system). Motorcycles have chains that can take up that slack, but they add weight. This probably suggests the need for an EUC motor design with different specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Chris Westland said: I am surprised that EUC manufacturers aren't using the Lynch / Etek motors, and learning about motor control from motorcycles like Zero and Lightening. B&S's Eteks seem to retail at ~$400, so they should be affordable for EUCs. EUCs may not comprise a huge market, but I'm sure it is bigger by volume than Electric Motorcycles. Better motors and BMS allow smaller batteries, higher torque, lighter EUCs and longer range. The Etek motor linked to in a seperate thread http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/ETK-ETEK.html weighs 20.8 lb and is stated as good for max 15hp (around 11kw) that spec doesn't look to me to be any better than current EUC motors pound for pound. To get that power it has a kV that is way too high for an EUC and would have to be geared. You only have to look at the massive levels of sales -not- that geared wheels like the Solowheel Orbit and Firewheel have to conclude that gearing isn't the wonderful solution some think it may be. high power is very easy to obtain with high kV motors, high torque most certainly isn't. Either the motor has to be substantially geared adding weight, complexity, backlash and expense, or you get torque the same way you get leverage by having the motive force (the magnets) as far away from the fulcrum (the axle) as possible. This makes an outrunner configuration with the magnets as close as possible to the tyre the best configuration possible - Oh that is exactly what we already have! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 hour ago, Chris Westland said: I can see why .... Rockwheel I think uses gears and is fast, but noisy. Gears can get dirty, and there will always be play in the gears (which is not good for an inverted pendulum system). Motorcycles have chains that can take up that slack, but they add weight. This probably suggests the need for an EUC motor design with different specs. I don't see there is any other choice. Either introduce gearing/transmission or being stuck with the current specifications/demands for torque and speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I wonder whether some sort of CVT transmission could be devised to work with EUCs. If you look at high speed electric bike motors they aren't very large in diameter. They appear slightly wider, but they appear to have oodles of torque. I still don't understand why some electric motors aren't suitable for EUC use. Are they just lacking hall sensors? If so, they could be easily incorporated no? Is there another reason? MW has some different diameter electric motors on their Alibaba site, but I've been told some don't work with EUC's. Is it just that their controller isn't programmed to work with them or is there another reason? Maybe @electric_vehicle_lover can shed some light... MW has a 16" motor that has a plug that looks the same as a Ninebot's plug. I find that an odd coincidence if it's just that, but that motor they said won't work in EUCs but works in different applications. Weird! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 5 hours ago, Chris Westland said: I am surprised that EUC manufacturers aren't using the Lynch / Etek motors, and learning about motor control from motorcycles like Zero and Lightening. B&S's Eteks seem to retail at ~$400, so they should be affordable for EUCs. EUCs may not comprise a huge market, but I'm sure it is bigger by volume than Electric Motorcycles. Better motors and BMS allow smaller batteries, higher torque, lighter EUCs and longer range. 400$ is to expensive. Etek is a different style and need a gear ratio to fit. Motors of EUCs are today direct drive low rpm motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Talking about design, I'm curious why none of the manufacturers haven't picked up on hubless wheels (like below), but then filled up all that space with an awesome amount of battery... And settle down @HunkaHunkaBurningLove - focus on the wheel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Wheel what wheel? I just see a hot chick standing next to a portable toilet seat... Not quite sure what DD a grafitti means but no matter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Keith said: The Etek motor linked to in a seperate thread http://www.robotmarketplace.com/products/ETK-ETEK.html weighs 20.8 lb and is stated as good for max 15hp (around 11kw) that spec doesn't look to me to be any better than current EUC motors pound for pound. To get that power it has a kV that is way too high for an EUC and would have to be geared. You only have to look at the massive levels of sales -not- that geared wheels like the Solowheel Orbit and Firewheel have to conclude that gearing isn't the wonderful solution some think it may be. high power is very easy to obtain with high kV motors, high torque most certainly isn't. Either the motor has to be substantially geared adding weight, complexity, backlash and expense, or you get torque the same way you get leverage by having the motive force (the magnets) as far away from the fulcrum (the axle) as possible. This makes an outrunner configuration with the magnets as close as possible to the tyre the best configuration possible - Oh that is exactly what we already have! That makes a lot of sense. So the design considerations would be closer to R/C electric planes/helicopters, butabilizers bigger. Maybe the sort of motors that are used on camera gimbal stabilizers. These are flat with a lot of torque. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 30 minutes ago, OliverH said: 400$ is to expensive. Etek is a different style and need a gear ratio to fit. Motors of EUCs are today direct drive low rpm motors. I'm curious how you would redesign the motors and electronics for EUC specifics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 30 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: Wheel what wheel? I just see a hot chick standing next to a portable toilet seat... Not quite sure what DD a grafitti means but no matter... DD? That's the size Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: MW has some different diameter electric motors on their Alibaba site, but I've been told some don't work with EUC's. Is it just that their controller isn't programmed to work with them or is there another reason? Maybe @electric_vehicle_lover can shed some light... MW has a 16" motor that has a plug that looks the same as a Ninebot's plug. I find that an odd coincidence if it's just that, but that motor they said won't work in EUCs but works in different applications. Weird! When we have our own OpenSource firmware, then we can try to drive any motor we have in front of us!! until then, let's keep trying to learn and make that OpenSource firmware!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxLinux Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: I'm curious why none of the manufacturers haven't picked up on hubless wheels Solowheel tried this too, and was equally unsuccessful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 hours ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Talking about design, I'm curious why none of the manufacturers haven't picked up on hubless wheels (like below), but then filled up all that space with an awesome amount of battery... And settle down @HunkaHunkaBurningLove - focus on the wheel! I assume the problem is to make the mechanical connection between motor and wheel, the transmission. It might be really difficult to come up with a transmission which is reliable and free of play, let alone noiseless. One of the more difficult decisions is whether and how to protect the transmission from dirt. Otherwise, I would assume this design saves quite some weight, as the motor can be much smaller. A possible solution (which had been dismissed by some commenters in this forum): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, MaxLinux said: Solowheel tried this too, and was equally unsuccessful. I wonder if that may be because the fixed footplates make it too awkward to carry / store - keep the folding pedals and put the battery in the hole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: I wonder if that may be because the fixed footplates make it too awkward to carry / store - keep the folding pedals and put the battery in the hole... Agreed, the problem is that it looks too cool. I also have doubts about the ground clearance with this design. Off road this looks like a nightmare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 On 10/23/2016 at 2:29 PM, The Fat Unicyclist said: Talking about design, I'm curious why none of the manufacturers haven't picked up on hubless wheels (like below), but then filled up all that space with an awesome amount of battery... And settle down @HunkaHunkaBurningLove - focus on the wheel! I think one issue with hubless wheels (at least on the bikes that I've looked at) is that the mechanisms are hard to protect. With a hub, you just have a small, closed box to protect; with hubless, you have the full inside surface of the rim and tire. When a hubless mechanism picks up dirt and (gasp!) sidewalk turds, they tend to spread out over the mechanism, and it all eventually goes to ... Osmos (France) has done a great deal to promote adoption of hubless products, and has many ideas presented on their site. This might suggest ways to develop EUC's that are hubless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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