Liam Mit Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Dear all, My 12 month warranty struggle with supplier. Paid £825 ($1005) Inc Shipping. Unit: Kingsong 14C (800W|680Wh) Purchase Date: 6th August 2015 Perfect for 25 weeks. Ridden for 21 weeks (minus 2 weeks holiday + 2 weeks working away) Running cost / 21 weeks £39 per week. (approx $47) Previously owned: Ips - 1000+ miles no issues. Ninebot one - 1000+ miles no issues.Powerbrick failed - Emailed supplier October 2015. Email reply from Supplier (Company director) 'The first batch was pretty shoddy' 'Half of the chargers were defective out of the box' Unit fault- Emailed supplier 2nd Feb 2016. Scrapping from wheel, a large number of images sent to supplier showing foot pedal rubbing against wheel. Email reply from Supplier (Company director) 'is it a slightly bent axle causing the problem?' 'can it be hammer back into shape?' 'A bit of force should do the trick. You should be able to wedge it free by carefully using a chisel or flat head of the screwdriver.' Centre Axle Close up Unfortunately, mid Feb i was diagnosed with a seriously illness, in and out of hospital, doctors appointments... the Kingsong was the last thing on my mind. In June, after a number of emails from the supplier one of which i clearly remember asking him to take the unit back and rebuild it for me, it had been a long time since the unit had been dismantled, this request was ignored, the replacement wheel arrived 1 or 2 days later, after refusing to pay the shipping cost of £25. After another load of trips too and from hospital, doctors, nurses, etc. finally, I got around to fitting the 'new' motor, albeit some time later. Read and re-read the supplied manual several times The rebuild: Started out full of promise, rebuilt the unit in around 2 hours (took my time) Powered the unit up after fitting the very tight side panels, all the lights worked.The unit only works when it is moved 45 degrees to left or right. contacted supplier again, new board sent out - refitted same issue. Emails sent to king song 5x - Number of responses Zero Will post more images later for those of you who want to see in more details what $1005 buys you. To be continued..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 7 hours ago, Liam Mit said: Running cost / 21 weeks £39 per week. (approx $47) This is quite the saga... I'll be interested to here more. Did you buy this direct, or is your supplier someone else? Also, your running cost doesn't make sense to me - I see that you've divided up the cost of the unit, but shouldn't this be more about the cost for power, consumables, maintenance and repair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 8 hours ago, Liam Mit said: Dear all, My 12 month warranty struggle with supplier. Paid £825 ($1005) Inc Shipping. Unit: Kingsong 14C (800W|680Wh) Purchase Date: 6th August 2015 Perfect for 25 weeks. Ridden for 21 weeks (minus 2 weeks holiday + 2 weeks working away) Running cost / 21 weeks £39 per week. (approx $47) Previously owned: Ips - 1000+ miles no issues. Ninebot one - 1000+ miles no issues.Powerbrick failed - Emailed supplier October 2015. Email reply from Supplier (Company director) 'The first batch was pretty shoddy' 'Half of the chargers were defective out of the box' Unit fault- Emailed supplier 2nd Feb 2016. Scrapping from wheel, a large number of images sent to supplier showing foot pedal rubbing against wheel. Email reply from Supplier (Company director) 'is it a slightly bent axle causing the problem?' 'can it be hammer back into shape?' 'A bit of force should do the trick. You should be able to wedge it free by carefully using a chisel or flat head of the screwdriver.' Centre Axle Close up Unfortunately, mid Feb i was diagnosed with a seriously illness, in and out of hospital, doctors appointments... the Kingsong was the last thing on my mind. In June, after a number of emails from the supplier one of which i clearly remember asking him to take the unit back and rebuild it for me, it had been a long time since the unit had been dismantled, this request was ignored, the replacement wheel arrived 1 or 2 days later, after refusing to pay the shipping cost of £25. After another load of trips too and from hospital, doctors, nurses, etc. finally, I got around to fitting the 'new' motor, albeit some time later. Read and re-read the supplied manual several times The rebuild: Started out full of promise, rebuilt the unit in around 2 hours (took my time) Powered the unit up after fitting the very tight side panels, all the lights worked.The unit only works when it is moved 45 degrees to left or right. contacted supplier again, new board sent out - refitted same issue. Emails sent to king song 5x - Number of responses Zero Will post more images later for those of you who want to see in more details what $1005 buys you. To be continued..... Show the shaft to an engineer and you get a laugh. Sharp edges are at least one of the major issues. We need to ged rid of this eBike roots with a lot of "improvements" for EUCs from people with missing knowledge. Have a look on this crankshaft from a motor. Do you see sharp edges? Why not? https://goo.gl/images/vMGe8u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 It's good to see that the axle shaft can be replaced without replacing the entire motor. How did you get it out? Rubber hammer on one end while supporting the opposite side? That looks to be a common failure spot on these KingSongs. I don't know if other wheels use slightly thicker metal around where the wiring harness exits, but I've only heard of the breakage occurring on KS units. I don't recall reading any pedal scraping on motors with Gotway or Ninebot due to broken axles - just loose pedal bolts I think. I might be wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andress Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 @Liam Mit Hi! I had the same exact problem with my motor axle. At first Kingsong refused to give me new motor but after about two months and many many emails we agreed on them sending me new motor if I pay 90USD shipping. In the end it looks like I will get new unicycle with discount instead. Thats the reason why I would very much like to know how you got the axle out. Maybe I could get it replaced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Liam bought from me. This is the part of being a Wheel Provider that completely sucks, when a Customer feels that they need to air grievances in public because we're not able to see eye-to-eye. Liam purchased one of the very first KS14Cs & the first batch had some bad Chargers. I sent him a replacement when reported & replaced the other 7 (it was a small initial batch) immediately. When he told me about the scrapping problem, about six months after purchase, I wasn't sure if it was slightly bent axle or something else. I asked if it could be banged back to the horizontal—several months earlier he told me about an attempt to repair an IPS, so in these communications I had the impression he was alright for taking this on. I hadn't heard anything back from him, then five months later he posted on the forums he was trying to communication with KS in China but was not getting anywhere. Immediately sent him a replacement motor/pedal assembly, but seemed disappointed because he wanted a New Wheel replacement—I asked if he didn't mind paying for the shipping, when he said that he did, I covered the costs... Nearly another three months go by, then last week he told me he tried to put it back together, described that the 'Wheel does not know which is up...", I sent a replacement control-board Then two days ago received a communication of "I have no choice but to put this down as a terrible experience from start to finish." I've tried to reach out to him, suggested he send the Wheel back so we can get it going for him again, but he said it was past remedy & that the only viable option was a new Wheel. Over the past 2.5 years I've sold about 500 Wheels & most of these Customers have been fantastic to work with, & so too was Liam, which is what makes this all the more difficult. I'd be lying if I said that I've never considered calling-it-a-day, maybe it's naive optimism that the eventual popularity & continued improvements will make this into a viable business. I understand he's going through a difficult time with his health, but to me, it doesn't seem fair to hold the Reseller hostage by insisting on a new Wheel (which I no longer have/had in stock) than working to get the Wheel repaired. In retrospect, I probably should have made the suggestion about sending it back for repair, but since he didn't bring it up, didn't suppose that this was an issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 36 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: I'd be lying if I said that I've never considered calling-it-a-day, maybe it's naive optimism that the eventual popularity & continued improvements will make this into a viable business Given the huge number of customers that are extremely satisfied with your service there will always be a few bumps along the way. When I hear of the efforts of you reaching out to a customer in need of advice on a Sunday in my opinion that goes well beyond the call of duty! Hang in there buddy! I will gladly share business war stories the next time we talk.? Oops, out of reps! 1000 more please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 That's a series of unfortunate events, and hopefully there will be some sort of win win resolution to be found. There are always a couple sides to a story so as third party observers we have to reserve judgement until both sides are heard. In business I've learned that with some situations you just can't win. You provide the best service that you can and do everything possible for a client, but in the end you just can't please everyone all of the time. People will have their own range of expectations, and those might not mesh with what you can provide. With these EUCs, resellers really are dependant on the quality of the product and do not know who they are selling to or what they are doing with them. That's pretty risky. If I was in the business and selling to trick riders jumping off walls all day my products wouldn't last very long. Covering warranty for that would be an endless costly headache for me. Sometimes customer expectations do not match what the product was originally designed for (including rider weight limits). Sometimes it's a design fault of too thin metal expected to resist 220 pounds jumping down off a curb or just a one off defect. I'm not sure what happened in the OP's case, but it sounds like having a customer attempt a complex repair might be more costly and problematic in the end than having it shipped back for an exchange. At this point I don't know if that's still an option on the table or not. Hopefully a bandage might be able to stop the bad blood from flowing. EDIT: In these Kobayashi Maru situations, if the customer is willing to return the wheel, parts, and accessories on Wheelgo's dime for shipping, maybe a full refund to them and calling it quits might stem the flow a bit? Repairing it in house and selling it as a refurbished wheel might at least recoup some costs and at least appease the customer? If it doesn't happen that often it could be chalked up as a cost of doing business and maintain some goodwill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 @Liam Mit sorry to hear about your problems. Sometimes the product quality or the quality of its certain parts is not up to a customer's standards, especially in this developing industry. Yes the chargers shipped prior to november 2015 were not good quality, the plastic would overheat and melt and the charger construction itself was not too solid. I myself had one of those and experienced the same problem. Axle failure is also becoming a more common issue, especially for heavy riders, after a certain mileage ridden. My axle also cracked at some point. There has been reports of ninebot axle bending and gotway axle breaking also, so i imagine this issue goes across multiple brands. In many cases, the manufacturers themselves discover design issues after much feedback comes back from riders, as certain problems manifest themselves after some usage. Communication with the manufacturer can be frustrating, and the distributors are in many cases at the mercy of the manufacturers. Ive had great experiences with Jason, but this doesnt mean your frustration is ungrounded. Id recommend to stay in contact with Jason, my experience is that if you are fair to him in terms of your expectations, he will be more than fair to you, as he, when in doubt, leans towards the interests of the end user. sometimes direct communication with kingsong also helps, keep at it, as the first thing they will always tell you is that you are not covered. You need to patiently continue making your case and many a time, they will eventually make it up to you. You seem to be very handy, so in your case, receiving parts and putting them in yourself seems like a better option than shipping the wheel for repair. good luck and keep us posted as to the progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 What i found really strange...is that a working wheel after putting it together again, only works when it is tilted 45 degree to the side...and that also with a complete new board??? when i think a bit about it, the only thing that gets to my mind is....that the motor cable or another plug are plugged in false or in false direction..... Anyone else an opinion? perhaps really easy to fix...... @Jason McNeil @Liam Mit Communication by E-Mail can sometimes go a bit wrong...written or unwritten word easily can get to mis-interpretation! As Jason is known here in the forum as Top-notch reseller, but also Liams description has its arguments or standpoints....i would suggest both of you to get back into communication just once more...a solution for sure can found ;-) btw: the charger.....haha ...looks like from 1920...i had each possible KS wheel now...but never seen such a thing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 3 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: <snip> 2.5 years I've sold about 500 Wheels & most of these Customers have been fantastic to work with, & so too was Liam, which is what makes this all the more difficult. I'd be lying if I said that I've never considered calling-it-a-day, maybe it's naive optimism that the eventual popularity & continued improvements will make this into a viable business. I understand he's going through a difficult time with his health, but to me, it doesn't seem fair to hold the Reseller hostage by insisting on a new Wheel (which I no longer have/had in stock) than working to get the Wheel repaired. In retrospect, I probably should have made the suggestion about sending it back for repair, but since he didn't bring it up, didn't suppose that this was an issue Given the relative low cost, people's expectations are too high for this nascent market. For that cost some people will expect hundreds to dollars worth of repair effort as you outlined above. Do they really think that your margin is so high that you can freely give as you have. It's a testament to your character that you hung in there through it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 11 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: It's good to see that the axle shaft can be replaced without replacing the entire motor. How did you get it out? Rubber hammer on one end while supporting the opposite side? That looks to be a common failure spot on these KingSongs. I don't know if other wheels use slightly thicker metal around where the wiring harness exits, but I've only heard of the breakage occurring on KS units. I don't recall reading any pedal scraping on motors with Gotway or Ninebot due to broken axles - just loose pedal bolts I think. I might be wrong? To replace the shaft it depends on the motor manufacturer. Some statirs are welded to the shaft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Mit Posted October 16, 2016 Author Share Posted October 16, 2016 Morning all, Time for some images, let see I detail what £825 buys you. I have all the time in the world to rattle kingsong's world... My mate tv went wrong yesterday, I am looking forward to curry's asking him to strip and self diagnose his issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 16, 2016 Share Posted October 16, 2016 I don't want to be the bad guy here, and I can understand and sympathize with your frustration with what has happened with your wheel along with your health issues. To pull back on the zoom though and sum things up - you bought a Kingsong. The pedals started scraping the motor shell. The reseller thought they might be bent so they asked if they could simply be unbent. You thought you could repair it so parts were shipped and received. You managed to remove the axle shaft amazingly enough and reveal the fractured axle. Even with replacement parts you could not put the wheel back together in a working state. Jason offered to take the parts back and repair it for you which seems darn pretty reasonable to me, but no you want a brand new wheel to replace an used, broken one. Fast forward to now, and it's time for public judgment time to reward Jason and Kingsong for this problem even though they seem to be trying to help you. You have a ton of parts there. If you can't fix it why not ship it all back to have it fixed for you? That part I don't quite understand. Why do the heavy lifting? Take for example if I drive my new car around for half a year, get a CV joint failure, try to fix it myself with parts they send me, fail to get it working, should I receive a brand new car for my troubles? Probably not gonna happen. It should get repaired under warranty if there's a factory defect or part failure. If I choose to try to fix it myself I would think it quite generous for them to still offer to repair it for me. Where is the downside to having them repair it? Are you thinking Kingsongs are all lemons that cannot be fixed so you want a brand new one? How fair can that be if you rode it for 6 months already? Are you trying to demand compensation for your inconvenience? Maybe you only rode it only 10 km in six months time so it's still pretty brand new? I'm just trying to understand how to justify asking for a brand new wheel to replace a used one that broke after 25 weeks which you tried repairing but failed to. Please help explain the logic here. In any case it appears to me that you may be the one who could be just a little more reasonable here. If I'm wrong please explain it to me. Tell me I'm just not getting it or am missing some key points. I know I may not be the sharpest tool in the box so if you can explain it a bit further I would appreciate it. I have no affiliation with Jason or any company here. On the other hand if there is a mutually beneficial resolution why not find a path to it rather than feel there is no other choice but to be bitter and post a negative themed thread here about it? That sounds like a lose lose proposition to me. If they can fix your wheel to get you back to enjoying riding it isn't that the best option at hand? Life is too short and our health can be an uncertainty. Why not work to make things more positive I figure? Maybe you can still work things out to your benefit before you decide to burn those bridges down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 On 10/16/2016 at 1:13 AM, Marty Backe said: Given the relative low cost, people's expectations are too high for this nascent market. The question of warranty is independent of costs. The product must function as announced during the warranty period. Period. I also tend to disagree with the low cost claim. Thousand bugs is not so low cost and I would believe one can buy the single components of a wheel for 150-200 bugs. The remaining 800 bugs should be more than enough to (also) cover any warranty issues. Quote For that cost some people will expect hundreds to dollars worth of repair effort as you outlined above. That is exactly right and is the main incentive for producers and sellers to make these unpleasant incidents/failures as unlikely as possible, which is exactly what we all want. Quote Do they really think that your margin is so high that you can freely give as you have. Yes, and they are absolutely correct if warranty cases are as seldom as they should be. Of course, the costs could easily exceed the margin of a single sell, but that is what I would expect, and which will, again, minimize warranty cases in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 On 10/19/2016 at 5:36 PM, Mono said: The question of warranty is independent of costs. The product must function as announced during the warranty period. Period. I also tend to disagree with the low cost claim. Thousand bugs is not so low cost and I would believe one can buy the single components of a wheel for 150-200 bugs. The remaining 800 bugs should be more than enough to (also) cover any warranty issues. That is exactly right and is the main incentive for producers and sellers to make these unpleasant incidents/failures as unlikely as possible, which is exactly what we all want. Yes, and they are absolutely correct if warranty cases are as seldom as they should be. Of course, the costs could easily exceed the margin of a single sell, but that is what I would expect, and which will, again, minimize warranty cases in the long run. Mono stated this 100% correctly, in my opinion. Yes, a retailer MAY not make a profit on a particular machine, but the overall profit from the business will only go down a bit. Its called "the price of doing business". Sometime the retailer needs to suck it up. Then he can swear at the manufacturer, threaten to withdraw business, whatever, but the consumer should not pay the price for a poorly designed product. This is not a shot at @Jason McNeil, or @Liam Mit , its a general statement about consumer reasonable expectations, and retailer responsibilities. Think about it, would you be mad if you bought a car, whose axle wore out before the tires? !!! EDIT wow. didn't realize this thread is over a year old. do we know if this was ever resolved (apologies, if that's already been discussed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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