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Jason McNeil

New KS18 Water Ingress Concerns

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It's fantastic that you are actively working for the benefits of the EUC community. It's individuals such as yourself, with some semblance of clout, that will see us get better and better wheels. Thank you.

And I agree with you regarding your concerns.

Edited by Marty Backe

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Very nice of you to shows this

Appreciate how you take serious the fact that your reputation rides on the line when you sell these wheels in the United States and how much you care about what products you were bringing in from China

That's the reason you have the reputation you do... That doesn't come easily

Thank you, from all of us

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Of course I would love to know more stats and specifications for this particular new wheel unless of course they are present somewhere else in this forum and I've yet to find them

as always, thank you in advance

Edited by Greg Spalding

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27 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

That's the reason you have the reputation you do

Thanks, there's still a great deal to be done. 

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For me there is a bigger question to be answered.

What evidence is there showing that this fan has any significant effect on cooling of the board ?

My personal experiments to improve KS cooling ( tested on my modded 26") has shown no improvement when adding a fan above the compartment. I've gone as far as lifting the board within the compartment to induce better airflow under the board. Was necessary to move capacitors to achieve the move.

I'm very interested to know exactly the improvement achieved, regardless the waterproofing issue

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48 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

Thanks, there's still a great deal to be done. 

but, i know it WILL be done with your "encouragement"

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Venting air from the top works. I did that as an experiment to fix the cooling problem, but I also added heat sinks under the board, the problem by having the wheel open on top is potential water entry.

I hope kingsong makes the top cover with the cooling vents available for sale since the cooling needs to improve on the original ks18a

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14 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

I've been holding back on ordering a batch of the new KS18s with the new motor, CB, & active cooling because of concerns over the decision to place the air inlets directly over the control-board. KS have added a fine mesh, which is supposed to keep the water out. I've asked them countless of times to demonstrate the effectiveness of this design in the scenario of heavy rain & a running fan.

Their first video had someone with jug pouring water over the perforated slots, all very good, but this is a far cry from the reality where the Wheel could be used for hours in wet conditions & is constantly moving about. I very much suspect that this mesh might catch some water, but if there is airflow (e.g. fan pulling air in) & the mesh becomes saturated, it's going to collect on the high-voltage board. My intent is to order a limited supply, do some more testing & insist that they package both the original covers (without slots) and perforated ones. If it checks out, the recommendation is to use the enclosed ones, but swap it out for long trips.

It's so frustrating that KS can't see for themselves that if there is a need for outside ventilation there are dozens of ways (like side slots with a downward oblique angle) to do this better than gravitation assisted failure :angry:

 

I have to say, sure this design is not the best, but i would easily do it with some Silicone "pads" over the air inlets!

This way i handle it also, with my self done Ventilation! I have some Silicons which are a Little big bigger in Diameter than my fans, which i just put over the fans in case of heacy rain!

 

Also:

The complete design of the cover of the board is/was never really waterproof at all! Only in front and back the cover has a gutter/expiration...on the left and right the cover is just laying on the pastic side of the Shell, and because it is squeezed into the front and back it even stands up a Little on the middle left/right, so that it is not recommended to use the KS18 at all at very heavy rain, as "flowing water" on the cover can move in on the sides!!! 

What i mean with the fan oppenings it did not become much worse :-)

13 hours ago, Mistagear said:

For me there is a bigger question to be answered.

What evidence is there showing that this fan has any significant effect on cooling of the board ?

My personal experiments to improve KS cooling ( tested on my modded 26") has shown no improvement when adding a fan above the compartment. I've gone as far as lifting the board within the compartment to induce better airflow under the board. Was necessary to move capacitors to achieve the move.

I'm very interested to know exactly the improvement achieved, regardless the waterproofing issue

I have put 2 small 50mm fans onto the board....one in ...one out!

Even when not using the fans...just the 2 hole alone gets down the temperature by about 6-8 degrees Celsius!

With using the fans, it even gets better, the board temperature goes down up to 15 degrees! There is another KS18 1200W user who has done one big 80mm fan, he is reporting the exact same....

Here the early Version, now i have some mesh on it, also you see the other solutions:

 

 

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There must be some smart way to channel air over the control board while keeping water out.  How about mounting the control board upside down to the top plate with a cutout that allows the fins from the aluminum heat sink to be exposed to the outside.  The heatsink window could be sealed with a gasket similar to how the Ninebot heatsink is mounted towards the motor.  That way air will cool and rain will cool even more.  You wouldn't need air going through the control board area as the heatsink connected to the MOSFETS is exposed.

They have some brilliant designers in China.  Someone must be able to come up with a few smarter solutions?  Even a simple RV roof vent type design with fan would work if designed smartly.

http://m.campingworld.com/category/fans-vents/16

Miniaturize a roof vent and put a small fan to move air through.  Add a waterproof intake vent as well for fresh air...

Edited by HunkaHunkaBurningLove

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The best method is the one used by IPS where the control board is on an aluminum enclosure, not only the aluminum enclosure protects the control board from dirt and water, it also improves cooling. King Song could do the same so even if water got in the case the control board would be protected. Also KingSong needs to oversize their control board since they can not handle the load from the motor properly, all it takes is a heavy rider over 100kg, a long steep incline of over 10 degrees, and a warm day and the control board is history, proper cooling and being able to handle the power from the motor it is a safety concern since when the board is drawing too many amps or its very hot it becomes unreliable.The KS18A it is a very good wheel but like most wheels it needs a better control board.

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You still can make cover with a gap around sides, or even just one side, to allow air flow on top of fan vent. I don't see major issue yet...

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29 minutes ago, One said:

What about using the Peltier effect to cool the board? No circulating fluid or moving parts and small,  too. Many small refrigerators already use this. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect

Has been discussed before. These devices don't make heat go away (conservation of energy) they simply move it by a few millimetres and in doing so create another source of heat as their efficiency is awful. What do you then do with all that heat that you couldn't have done without the Peltier device?

 

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On ‎2016‎-‎10‎-‎12 at 0:33 PM, KingSong69 said:

I have to say, sure this design is not the best, but i would easily do it with some Silicone "pads" over the air inlets!

This way i handle it also, with my self done Ventilation! I have some Silicons which are a Little big bigger in Diameter than my fans, which i just put over the fans in case of heacy rain!

 

Also:

The complete design of the cover of the board is/was never really waterproof at all! Only in front and back the cover has a gutter/expiration...on the left and right the cover is just laying on the pastic side of the Shell, and because it is squeezed into the front and back it even stands up a Little on the middle left/right, so that it is not recommended to use the KS18 at all at very heavy rain, as "flowing water" on the cover can move in on the sides!!! 

What i mean with the fan oppenings it did not become much worse :-)

I have put 2 small 50mm fans onto the board....one in ...one out!

Even when not using the fans...just the 2 hole alone gets down the temperature by about 6-8 degrees Celsius!

With using the fans, it even gets better, the board temperature goes down up to 15 degrees! There is another KS18 1200W user who has done one big 80mm fan, he is reporting the exact same....

Here the early Version, now i have some mesh on it, also you see the other solutions:

 

 

Thank you Sire , I think your installation of fans is very professional     ,      I solved the waterproblem by making a lid to put ontop if I go in rain and if I go in the mountains then I can use my raincover instead made of soft clear vinyl plastic , then I don't need any lid and air can circulate trough the vents

Soft vinyl cover v1 , I think it is this one I modified for KS18

Soft vinyl cover

Wheelcover tiger

MCGyver style

Edited by FLASH

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24 minutes ago, Keith said:

What do you then do with all that heat that you couldn't have done without the Peltier device?

 

Ok, just an idea - but your arguments sound plausible. 

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On ‎2016‎-‎10‎-‎11 at 9:58 PM, Jason McNeil said:

I've been holding back on ordering a batch of the new KS18s with the new motor, CB, & active cooling because of concerns over the decision to place the air inlets directly over the control-board. KS have added a fine mesh, which is supposed to keep the water out. I've asked them countless of times to demonstrate the effectiveness of this design in the scenario of heavy rain & a running fan.

Their first video had someone with jug pouring water over the perforated slots, all very good, but this is a far cry from the reality where the Wheel could be used for hours in wet conditions & is constantly moving about. I very much suspect that this mesh might catch some water, but if there is airflow (e.g. fan pulling air in) & the mesh becomes saturated, it's going to collect on the high-voltage board. My intent is to order a limited supply, do some more testing & insist that they package both the original covers (without slots) and perforated ones. If it checks out, the recommendation is to use the enclosed ones, but swap it out for long trips.

It's so frustrating that KS can't see for themselves that if there is a need for outside ventilation there are dozens of ways (like side slots with a downward oblique angle) to do this better than gravitation assisted failure :angry:

 

This is not a dealbreaker , if you don't like the fan and vent holes then order it without and get all the new improvements instead   :P

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I have new control board and that top plate with fan and vent holes, i sealed holes with Gorilla tape.
I see no need for cooling fan, here and in my use.

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20 minutes ago, jesi said:

I have new control board and that top plate with fan and vent holes, i sealed holes with Gorilla tape.
I see no need for cooling fan, here and in my use.

I agree , I read here in the forum about some members having overheating problems when going in the mountains at the summertime , for normal use it's not needed , when I drove up a mountain here in hot summer then I reached 62 degrees celcius but nothing happened still I decided to mount a fan to see and learn how much difference it would make and it was a huge difference even with the fan turned off

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They should use heatpipes to move the heatsinks from the control board to a better location, it's cheap, compact and maintenance free.

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On 11/5/2016 at 2:44 AM, nomad said:

They should use heatpipes to move the heatsinks from the control board to a better location, it's cheap, compact and maintenance free.

They should leave the heat syncs in place, but connect heat pipes to them and route those to the outside through water seals to another heat sync.  This would effectively eliminate any heat issues without using fans that can fail.

Edited by SuperSport

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On 2016-10-11 at 4:05 PM, Marty Backe said:

It's fantastic that you are actively working for the benefits of the EUC community. It's individuals such as yourself, with some semblance of clout, that will see us get better and better wheels. Thank you.

And I agree with you regarding your concerns.

Indeed. Thank you Jason for trying to keep us as safe as possible! Oh, and I LOVE MY NEW MSUPER S+!!! In Montreal 30kmh feels fast enough with these notoriously terrible roads and I can just feel that extra power available to me if needed.

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