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I tested the max speed on my Gotway acm 16

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3 minutes ago, Mistagear said:

Just wondering why you blurred out vision of the phone you were holding ?

Yeah, I was curious about that too?

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1 minute ago, The Fat Unicyclist said:

Yeah, I was curious about that too?

Me too?

 

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8 hours ago, John Eucist said:

I think, possibly, the tilt back threshold actually caused the shut down since, I think, it requires a brief surge of power to make it tilt back and it was already near the hardware limits at the time.

Than it should not be possible to select a value off limit. There's still 48 km/h to select. Was this foreseeable risk or misuse? Depending to the app not. This speeds are stupid and should not be reached for a normal customers. 

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6 minutes ago, OliverH said:

Than it should not be possible to select a value off limit. There's still 48 km/h to select. Was this foreseeable risk or misuse? Depending to the app not. This speeds are stupid and should not be reached for a normal customers. 

Exactly my point!! It should not be possible to select that value especially since you are still able to select 48km! 

 

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Just now, Tishawn Fahie said:

Exactly my point!! It should not be possible to select that value especially since you are still able to select 48km! 

 

I would be happy to see test documents for different weights of riders from the manufacturer on which the maximum design speed was defined.

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4 minutes ago, OliverH said:

I would be happy to see test documents for different weights of riders from the manufacturer on which the maximum design speed was defined.

they gotta be testing these things with kids......there's no way these test were done with the average weight of an adult.

Edited by Tishawn Fahie

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I guess it depends on the average age and weight of their sales demographic.

https://www.reference.com/world-view/average-weight-teenager-china-faacc8a37d763c4b

If we here on the forum make up only less than 1% in sales, and the majority of their buyers are teens in Asia weighing 125 pounds that might explain things, but those lift test results of 48-51 kph are alarming.  That speed though could just be limited by the controller board as a safety cut off.  I don't think lift test speeds tell you very much. For example a cooling fan can spin at 2500 rpm, but you can stop it easily with your finger so there isn't a lot of torque.  Riding on a fan motor won't get you too far.

They really should take the maximum weighed rider (eg. 250 lbs) and use that as a reference weight to determine the top maximum speed while having a good amount of "safety speed" reserve.

 

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59 minutes ago, Mistagear said:

The real problem is Chinese manufacturers (all of them). None have proper methods to achieve correct performance figures and all exacerbate the problem by claiming exaggerated and unachievable figures.

I've have a number of requests to build 26" wheels but I'm not interested until there is a motor/pcb/battery combination with sufficient power and reliability to make it safe for riders to use. If/when we make them, they will be tested on a purpose built dyne-rig and people will be able to trust performance and weight advisory given.

Your point is well-taken, and you are someone who speaks from much experience as both a custom builder and veteran rider. However, I think it's more a business problem than engineering. The current state of self-balancing personal transportation technology is essentially owed to Segway and those who acquired/followed/copied. What is lacking are sufficient market forces to propel a company with the necessary technical and financial resources – and passion – to elevate quality and spur innovation.

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If max speed advertised as 45 km/h than you should reach that speed fairly easy, but in this situation you get cut off at advertised speed. My last MCM v3 was max 28 km/h but it shut down on me at 35 km/h (not intentionally, but I was ok). There should be at least 5 km/h or more over the advertised speed. This is not very good publicity for GotWay.

I have reached 40 km/h on my ACM, didn't feel like 40 km/h at all, very, very solid and fast machine.

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We'll see this problem for some time. In Europe there will be a change with Personal light electric vehicle (PLEV):

- a compliant EUC is than tested with the maximum design weight

- it's limited to 25 km/h

- it will have a redundant power management and also redundant control system

Devices which are not compliant are illegal or only usable for non public roads/ competition.

I'm not sure if all or at least 2-3 manufacturers are able to follow this PLEV path. Maybe some can survive in niche markets or change their business model and product portfolio but will opt out from EUC business.

There's currently s big German company joining the market with product like Egret, JDbugs and so on. And they do it with agile methods and teams. You never know if they address also EUC in the near future.

There could be EUCs from manufacturers we know today but there will be also new manufacturers joining this regulated market with much higher sales perspectives. And this new companies will have a higher maturity in engineering, marketing, sales and service. 

Manufacturer should listen to their distributors if they demand/ request safety features or offer help with test concepts and so on.

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6 hours ago, litewave said:

Your point is well-taken, and you are someone who speaks from much experience as both a custom builder and veteran rider. However, I think it's more a business problem than engineering. The current state of self-balancing personal transportation technology is essentially owed to Segway and those who acquired/followed/copied. What is lacking are sufficient market forces to propel a company with the necessary technical and financial resources – and passion – to elevate quality and spur innovation.

Nobody twists their arm to make claims which exceed actual performance. I understand the pressure to quickly release a new model but by selling untested equipment, it is detrimental to sales in the long run.

I would suggest the first Company to publish justified performance numbers for their wheels which in turn also have very low failure numbers, will be the Company which becomes the market leader.

The EUC product has evolved to the point where a Co should by now, be able to advise that an (xx)kg pilot is safe at (xx)kph, down to (xx)%battery and another weight pilot with appropriate figures to suit.

These guys are manufacturing automotive products and that industry has a century of accepted practice. They must start to conform otherwise EUCs will continue to be seen as cheap quality toys and no Co will survive.

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23 minutes ago, EU GUY said:

build with suspention systems and used on heavy downhill tracks. A new sport... Thats what i want to see become a reality. We are getting closer though. Imagine a bicycle shockabsorber on each side of the wheel with pedals connected and able to move up and down  

Controlling spring rebound without jettisoning the pilot will be very difficult to achieve.... Unless you bolt your feet to the pedal, I'll pass thanks.

BTW, 60kph is only one tyre size away, however, stopping is the problem

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Regarding the manufacturer’s testing specifications, well, I got them with my Dolphin D5. The test sheet shows many various tests performed on my wheel before it was sent to me. Speed tests as well. And it clearly states that the test load was 60 kilos.

Max specs speed of my D5 was said to be 25 km/h. And I was indeed able to ride at that speed without problems, but not faster (I am 65kg). Well, when it came to 25 km/h, the wheel started to beep (Dolphin allows for setting the tiltback to 0 degrees and that’s what I used to have). I always decelerated a bit and rode on. Only one time I made that terrible mistake to try to push the wheel beyond that speed or perhaps at least keep it for some longer time. It was beeping like hell but I did not care. I wanted to overtake a lady on rollerblades. Unfortunately, I was low on battery at that moment (after a long ride) and the wheel simply gave up and shut down on me. At least, that is what I think was the reason of shut down: high demand for power and low battery. I fell the way @EU GUY (“running” and falling) and got some bruises. Since than I wear a helmet.

My point is that in the above mentioned case I can only blame myself for not observing the alarms and not the manufacturer for not providing enough info.

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50 minutes ago, JoyRide said:

Regarding the manufacturer’s testing specifications, well, I got them with my Dolphin D5. The test sheet shows many various tests performed on my wheel before it was sent to me. Speed tests as well. And it clearly states that the test load was 60 kilos.

Max specs speed of my D5 was said to be 25 km/h. And I was indeed able to ride at that speed without problems, but not faster (I am 65kg). Well, when it came to 25 km/h, the wheel started to beep (Dolphin allows for setting the tiltback to 0 degrees and that’s what I used to have). I always decelerated a bit and rode on. Only one time I made that terrible mistake to try to push the wheel beyond that speed or perhaps at least keep it for some longer time. It was beeping like hell but I did not care. I wanted to overtake a lady on rollerblades. Unfortunately, I was low on battery at that moment (after a long ride) and the wheel simply gave up and shut down on me. At least, that is what I think was the reason of shut down: high demand for power and low battery. I fell the way @EU GUY (“running” and falling) and got some bruises. Since than I wear a helmet.

My point is that in the above mentioned case I can only blame myself for not observing the alarms and not the manufacturer for not providing enough info.

The device must take action to brake you down if you reach a threshold.

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3 hours ago, John Eucist said:

As long the euc market is not growing towards mass adoption then it will always be very small niche companies catering to us.  This means that poor quality control and business practices will continue.  It is unfortunate that the steep learning curve of eucs combined with legal issues of riding in their respective countries is hampering the growth of this sport.  We can only try our best to grow the sport by getting more people interested in it which will translate to better quality products, quality control, customer service, and business practices.

The EUC market will have a strong growing in Europe with PLEV for this companies prepared. Europe will/ has the ability to outperform the Asian market. 

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13 minutes ago, OliverH said:

The device must take action to brake you down if you reach a threshold.

Wow! I would imagine the person on the wheel suddenly flying like superman, :lol:

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17 minutes ago, OliverH said:

The device must take action to brake you down if you reach a threshold.

I don't think "brake" is a good idea.  However, when reaching that threshold it should "stop accelerating" when you try to lean.  This way you have a chance to not fall from the "not accelerating" compared to a total power cut.

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Great video and discussion!

From the viewpoint of a newbie who might not know what he is missing by not yet having experienced a 40kph+ ride: For me part of the fascination that got me hooked on EUC was the simplicity of it, the fact that you do not need a hangar full of equipment and a three-hour preparation before going out. Experimentalism is a necessity for pushing boundaries but to me, eWheeling is going to be something else if you are going to need backup systems and casings to protect the driver, etc. It almost feels like that "something" already exists... Paraphrasing a guy some 2000 years ago: stand up, take your wheel and go.

(OK, if anyone can make a combo of this and a EUC I am willing to stand down. ;) )

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10 hours ago, yourtoys7 said:

If max speed advertised as 45 km/h than you should reach that speed fairly easy, but in this situation you get cut off at advertised speed. My last MCM v3 was max 28 km/h but it shut down on me at 35 km/h (not intentionally, but I was ok). There should be at least 5 km/h or more over the advertised speed. This is not very good publicity for GotWay.

I have reached 40 km/h on my ACM, didn't feel like 40 km/h at all, very, very solid and fast machine.

yeah

Edited by ElectricWheelEric

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51 minutes ago, John Eucist said:

I don't think "brake" is a good idea.  However, when reaching that threshold it should "stop accelerating" when you try to lean.  This way you have a chance to not fall from the "not accelerating" compared to a total power cut.

You're right. Let's try it in other words. If the rider requests 70% of max power (maps in the firmware) there should be action (audio note, slower acceleration) to prevent further accelerating. There must always been a safety margin for foreseeable risk (bumby road,..). Maximum design speed must be safe to ride with normal use.  This needs a lot measuring and testing but this will establish a good reputation which has impact on long term sales and customers keeping with the brand.

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