Mistagear Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 1 hour ago, EU GUY said: I had a brain fart and thought it would be a good idea to test the speed right there and then. Just something i had to get out of my system i guess. Luckily, your injuries are relatively minor for a fall at that speed. Other members here should be aware, they may not be so lucky when attempting near max speeds. Warning... I'm 4 months and counting, and not yet recovered from a 50kph fall. Also noted the risky forward lean position which I have found necessary to counter the increased wind resistance above 40kph. This reason alone is why I personally think, no production EUC should be capable of speeds greater than 35/40 kph Just wondering why you blurred out vision of the phone you were holding ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 3 minutes ago, Mistagear said: Just wondering why you blurred out vision of the phone you were holding ? Yeah, I was curious about that too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pasi Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 1 minute ago, The Fat Unicyclist said: Yeah, I was curious about that too? Me too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 8 hours ago, John Eucist said: I think, possibly, the tilt back threshold actually caused the shut down since, I think, it requires a brief surge of power to make it tilt back and it was already near the hardware limits at the time. Than it should not be possible to select a value off limit. There's still 48 km/h to select. Was this foreseeable risk or misuse? Depending to the app not. This speeds are stupid and should not be reached for a normal customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 You're almost there, but I think you need to suit up like @EUC Extreme if you were to dance with the maximum speed devil again. Still, I don't think there's any protection that would prevent a neck injury if you were to hit your head and bend it in a bad way so be careful! A life changing paralysis isn't worth a cool video on Youtube no matter what people think. I wonder if the reference weight might be closer to 50-60 kg that they use to determine these speed specifications. Headwind, weight, inclines, battery age, psi, etc all likely come into play as it's a multi-factorial equation when it comes down to it. The problem with showing a speed value in an app is that it doesn't take a lot into consideration. They should have a greater safety margin over 45 kph if they want to state that as a possible speed achievable or limit the speed more to a max of 38 kph with mandatory tiltback. Even then with weight variances that might not be safe enough... so the app should ask for the rider's weight and compute a safer set of values. I'm no expert, but that's what I think at least. By the by @Duf mentioned your accident in one of his videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tishawn Fahie Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 6 minutes ago, OliverH said: Than it should not be possible to select a value off limit. There's still 48 km/h to select. Was this foreseeable risk or misuse? Depending to the app not. This speeds are stupid and should not be reached for a normal customers. Exactly my point!! It should not be possible to select that value especially since you are still able to select 48km! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 Just now, Tishawn Fahie said: Exactly my point!! It should not be possible to select that value especially since you are still able to select 48km! I would be happy to see test documents for different weights of riders from the manufacturer on which the maximum design speed was defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tishawn Fahie Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 4 minutes ago, OliverH said: I would be happy to see test documents for different weights of riders from the manufacturer on which the maximum design speed was defined. they gotta be testing these things with kids......there's no way these test were done with the average weight of an adult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 I guess it depends on the average age and weight of their sales demographic. https://www.reference.com/world-view/average-weight-teenager-china-faacc8a37d763c4b If we here on the forum make up only less than 1% in sales, and the majority of their buyers are teens in Asia weighing 125 pounds that might explain things, but those lift test results of 48-51 kph are alarming. That speed though could just be limited by the controller board as a safety cut off. I don't think lift test speeds tell you very much. For example a cooling fan can spin at 2500 rpm, but you can stop it easily with your finger so there isn't a lot of torque. Riding on a fan motor won't get you too far. They really should take the maximum weighed rider (eg. 250 lbs) and use that as a reference weight to determine the top maximum speed while having a good amount of "safety speed" reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistagear Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 The real problem is Chinese manufacturers (all of them). None have proper methods to achieve correct performance figures and all exacerbate the problem by claiming exaggerated and unachievable figures. I've have a number of requests to build 26" wheels but I'm not interested until there is a motor/pcb/battery combination with sufficient power and reliability to make it safe for riders to use. If/when we make them, they will be tested on a purpose built dyne-rig and people will be able to trust performance and weight advisory given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
litewave Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 59 minutes ago, Mistagear said: The real problem is Chinese manufacturers (all of them). None have proper methods to achieve correct performance figures and all exacerbate the problem by claiming exaggerated and unachievable figures. I've have a number of requests to build 26" wheels but I'm not interested until there is a motor/pcb/battery combination with sufficient power and reliability to make it safe for riders to use. If/when we make them, they will be tested on a purpose built dyne-rig and people will be able to trust performance and weight advisory given. Your point is well-taken, and you are someone who speaks from much experience as both a custom builder and veteran rider. However, I think it's more a business problem than engineering. The current state of self-balancing personal transportation technology is essentially owed to Segway and those who acquired/followed/copied. What is lacking are sufficient market forces to propel a company with the necessary technical and financial resources – and passion – to elevate quality and spur innovation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yourtoys7 Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 If max speed advertised as 45 km/h than you should reach that speed fairly easy, but in this situation you get cut off at advertised speed. My last MCM v3 was max 28 km/h but it shut down on me at 35 km/h (not intentionally, but I was ok). There should be at least 5 km/h or more over the advertised speed. This is not very good publicity for GotWay. I have reached 40 km/h on my ACM, didn't feel like 40 km/h at all, very, very solid and fast machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 We'll see this problem for some time. In Europe there will be a change with Personal light electric vehicle (PLEV): - a compliant EUC is than tested with the maximum design weight - it's limited to 25 km/h - it will have a redundant power management and also redundant control system Devices which are not compliant are illegal or only usable for non public roads/ competition. I'm not sure if all or at least 2-3 manufacturers are able to follow this PLEV path. Maybe some can survive in niche markets or change their business model and product portfolio but will opt out from EUC business. There's currently s big German company joining the market with product like Egret, JDbugs and so on. And they do it with agile methods and teams. You never know if they address also EUC in the near future. There could be EUCs from manufacturers we know today but there will be also new manufacturers joining this regulated market with much higher sales perspectives. And this new companies will have a higher maturity in engineering, marketing, sales and service. Manufacturer should listen to their distributors if they demand/ request safety features or offer help with test concepts and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistagear Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 6 hours ago, litewave said: Your point is well-taken, and you are someone who speaks from much experience as both a custom builder and veteran rider. However, I think it's more a business problem than engineering. The current state of self-balancing personal transportation technology is essentially owed to Segway and those who acquired/followed/copied. What is lacking are sufficient market forces to propel a company with the necessary technical and financial resources – and passion – to elevate quality and spur innovation. Nobody twists their arm to make claims which exceed actual performance. I understand the pressure to quickly release a new model but by selling untested equipment, it is detrimental to sales in the long run. I would suggest the first Company to publish justified performance numbers for their wheels which in turn also have very low failure numbers, will be the Company which becomes the market leader. The EUC product has evolved to the point where a Co should by now, be able to advise that an (xx)kg pilot is safe at (xx)kph, down to (xx)%battery and another weight pilot with appropriate figures to suit. These guys are manufacturing automotive products and that industry has a century of accepted practice. They must start to conform otherwise EUCs will continue to be seen as cheap quality toys and no Co will survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 As long the euc market is not growing towards mass adoption then it will always be very small niche companies catering to us. This means that poor quality control and business practices will continue. It is unfortunate that the steep learning curve of eucs combined with legal issues of riding in their respective countries is hampering the growth of this sport. We can only try our best to grow the sport by getting more people interested in it which will translate to better quality products, quality control, customer service, and business practices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUCGUY Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 1 hour ago, John Eucist said: As long the euc market is not growing towards mass adoption then it will always be very small niche companies catering to us. This means that poor quality control and business practices will continue. It is unfortunate that the steep learning curve of eucs combined with legal issues of riding in their respective countries is hampering the growth of this sport. We can only try our best to grow the sport by getting more people interested in it which will translate to better quality products, quality control, customer service, and business practices. I hope for a future where EUCs can reach speeds of 60 kmh and be build with suspention systems and used on heavy downhill tracks. A new sport... Thats what i want to see become a reality. We are getting closer though. Imagine a bicycle shockabsorber on each side of the wheel with pedals connected and able to move up and down on hard impacts. A lot of people "most" still look at me with open mouths when i ride up steep hills or on roads at 25-30 kmh without any signs of stopping. Most people know about the hoverboards because of the massive "negative" news about them, but not a lot know about brands like gotway or kingsong and what their wheels are capable of. most kids around here usually yell "airwheel" after me and think that what they get from that brand is as good as it gets. Most serious people and adults dont know about the more powerfull wheels "most likely" and some might call me names or say that they dont see the point of it when im riding in the woods and a distance trip that most bicycle riders would find exhausting. A quality documentary about EUCs and why they are so good is one of the things we need i think. Random videos on youtube wont do much because most of the people looking at them are riders themself. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistagear Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 23 minutes ago, EU GUY said: build with suspention systems and used on heavy downhill tracks. A new sport... Thats what i want to see become a reality. We are getting closer though. Imagine a bicycle shockabsorber on each side of the wheel with pedals connected and able to move up and down Controlling spring rebound without jettisoning the pilot will be very difficult to achieve.... Unless you bolt your feet to the pedal, I'll pass thanks. BTW, 60kph is only one tyre size away, however, stopping is the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoyRide Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Regarding the manufacturer’s testing specifications, well, I got them with my Dolphin D5. The test sheet shows many various tests performed on my wheel before it was sent to me. Speed tests as well. And it clearly states that the test load was 60 kilos. Max specs speed of my D5 was said to be 25 km/h. And I was indeed able to ride at that speed without problems, but not faster (I am 65kg). Well, when it came to 25 km/h, the wheel started to beep (Dolphin allows for setting the tiltback to 0 degrees and that’s what I used to have). I always decelerated a bit and rode on. Only one time I made that terrible mistake to try to push the wheel beyond that speed or perhaps at least keep it for some longer time. It was beeping like hell but I did not care. I wanted to overtake a lady on rollerblades. Unfortunately, I was low on battery at that moment (after a long ride) and the wheel simply gave up and shut down on me. At least, that is what I think was the reason of shut down: high demand for power and low battery. I fell the way @EU GUY (“running” and falling) and got some bruises. Since than I wear a helmet. My point is that in the above mentioned case I can only blame myself for not observing the alarms and not the manufacturer for not providing enough info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 50 minutes ago, JoyRide said: Regarding the manufacturer’s testing specifications, well, I got them with my Dolphin D5. The test sheet shows many various tests performed on my wheel before it was sent to me. Speed tests as well. And it clearly states that the test load was 60 kilos. Max specs speed of my D5 was said to be 25 km/h. And I was indeed able to ride at that speed without problems, but not faster (I am 65kg). Well, when it came to 25 km/h, the wheel started to beep (Dolphin allows for setting the tiltback to 0 degrees and that’s what I used to have). I always decelerated a bit and rode on. Only one time I made that terrible mistake to try to push the wheel beyond that speed or perhaps at least keep it for some longer time. It was beeping like hell but I did not care. I wanted to overtake a lady on rollerblades. Unfortunately, I was low on battery at that moment (after a long ride) and the wheel simply gave up and shut down on me. At least, that is what I think was the reason of shut down: high demand for power and low battery. I fell the way @EU GUY (“running” and falling) and got some bruises. Since than I wear a helmet. My point is that in the above mentioned case I can only blame myself for not observing the alarms and not the manufacturer for not providing enough info. The device must take action to brake you down if you reach a threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 3 hours ago, John Eucist said: As long the euc market is not growing towards mass adoption then it will always be very small niche companies catering to us. This means that poor quality control and business practices will continue. It is unfortunate that the steep learning curve of eucs combined with legal issues of riding in their respective countries is hampering the growth of this sport. We can only try our best to grow the sport by getting more people interested in it which will translate to better quality products, quality control, customer service, and business practices. The EUC market will have a strong growing in Europe with PLEV for this companies prepared. Europe will/ has the ability to outperform the Asian market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 13 minutes ago, OliverH said: The device must take action to brake you down if you reach a threshold. Wow! I would imagine the person on the wheel suddenly flying like superman, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 17 minutes ago, OliverH said: The device must take action to brake you down if you reach a threshold. I don't think "brake" is a good idea. However, when reaching that threshold it should "stop accelerating" when you try to lean. This way you have a chance to not fall from the "not accelerating" compared to a total power cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snurre Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 Great video and discussion! From the viewpoint of a newbie who might not know what he is missing by not yet having experienced a 40kph+ ride: For me part of the fascination that got me hooked on EUC was the simplicity of it, the fact that you do not need a hangar full of equipment and a three-hour preparation before going out. Experimentalism is a necessity for pushing boundaries but to me, eWheeling is going to be something else if you are going to need backup systems and casings to protect the driver, etc. It almost feels like that "something" already exists... Paraphrasing a guy some 2000 years ago: stand up, take your wheel and go. (OK, if anyone can make a combo of this and a EUC I am willing to stand down. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricWheelEric Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 10 hours ago, yourtoys7 said: If max speed advertised as 45 km/h than you should reach that speed fairly easy, but in this situation you get cut off at advertised speed. My last MCM v3 was max 28 km/h but it shut down on me at 35 km/h (not intentionally, but I was ok). There should be at least 5 km/h or more over the advertised speed. This is not very good publicity for GotWay. I have reached 40 km/h on my ACM, didn't feel like 40 km/h at all, very, very solid and fast machine. yeah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 51 minutes ago, John Eucist said: I don't think "brake" is a good idea. However, when reaching that threshold it should "stop accelerating" when you try to lean. This way you have a chance to not fall from the "not accelerating" compared to a total power cut. You're right. Let's try it in other words. If the rider requests 70% of max power (maps in the firmware) there should be action (audio note, slower acceleration) to prevent further accelerating. There must always been a safety margin for foreseeable risk (bumby road,..). Maximum design speed must be safe to ride with normal use. This needs a lot measuring and testing but this will establish a good reputation which has impact on long term sales and customers keeping with the brand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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