King Song 18A stable and fast wheel

[abinder3]

On 9/26/2016 at 2:27 AM, Raptor said:

As a Star Wars movie machinery in today's reality 

  For fast driving, I like sitting in this wheel ! Then he seems very stable .
 I did not great here though wery fast because I've already felt the functioning of the speed limiter !
To limiters fast accelerating throws a very very strongly back  !!! It may even throw you away ! 
I am, however,very very pleased with this wheel ! 

Here a small video : https://youtu.be/cqPki7qFuLk

 

 

It would be interesting to see the reaction it would get if about 10 people, dressed the way you are in this video, were to roll down a bike path sitting on KS18s like you were.  

[steve454]

3 hours ago, abinder3 said:

It would be interesting to see the reaction it would get if about 10 people, dressed the way you are in this video, were to roll down a bike path sitting on KS18s like you were.  

Or even riding standing, it would be like a squad of stormtroopers flying by.  Looked like great acceleration at the first of the video.

As tall as the KS18 is, in the video it is easy to see that riding seated would be an option not available on any other wheel, except maybe the Gotway monster.

[abinder3]

One thing for sure, that seat that comes with the KS18 isn't very comfortable.
(At least not for me.)

 

 

Allen

[Dingfelder]

On 10/19/2016 at 5:52 AM, Raptor said:

Unfortunately not my video !!! I found this on the Internet. I read Russian forum,and I found this video :

King Song KS18 a very very steep climb up the hill  : 

 

Wow thanks for this video!  It made a big difference in solidifying my desire to get a Kingsong 18.  I live around lots of steep hills, including the one to my my house, and am over 200 pounds.  I wondered if I would be terrifically disappointed by EUC's, but to judge by this video, I will probably be fine and have a lot of fun with them.

[Dingfelder]

On 2/25/2017 at 9:40 PM, jrkline said:

When I saw this video posting I recognized that hill.It is in Shenzhen about a mile behind the King Song facility.When I visited their facilty in Oct '16 the King Song people put me on the new 1200w 18A to test it with a 200lb rider and we (including the kid in the video) rode around these hills.He made it up no problem but it would only carry me half way up that hill.It is still very good at hill climbing.

Uh oh, now I am disappointed. I am 220 pounds and this video got me very hopeful.  It is hard to always think straight when you are excited about something fun coming your way.  I guess that's how they sell lottery tickets.

Honestly, I am actually kind of surprised.  I am new to the world of EUC's and even thinking about EUC's.  But at 220 lbs., I am very far from unusual here in America.  And it looks like I am at the far end of who can possibly ride a EUC.

[Dingfelder]

On 2/28/2017 at 8:03 PM, abinder3 said:

One thing for sure, that seat that comes with the KS18 isn't very comfortable.
(At least not for me.)

 

 

Allen

The seat is one of the main reasons I want to get the KS 18.  I have a bad back and am not sure how long I could stand up straight.  I get weary fast standing up because I have scoliosis.  I can do things ... but its' just not so fun when I have to spend energy and grit my teeth just to stand up like regular folks.  I was hoping the seat would be a nice way of relaxing and pacing myself between standing sessions.  Do you think someone with back problems would find the seat much of a relief?  And ... if you would mind turning it over in your mind for a while ... do you think there would be a way to make the seat work well?  Lotsa thanks for your feedback!

[US69]

2 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

Uh oh, now I am disappointed. I am 220 pounds and this video got me very hopeful.  It is hard to always think straight when you are excited about something fun coming your way.  I guess that's how they sell lottery tickets.

Honestly, I am actually kind of surprised.  I am new to the world of EUC's and even thinking about EUC's.  But at 220 lbs., I am very far from unusual here in America.  And it looks like I am at the far end of who can possibly ride a EUC.

dont worry...until January i had 220pounds=100kg, also (now down to 85 ,yeah))

its no prob to ride a KS18 or a v3 and in real life they brought me up every! hill....Sorry, this hill from the KS factory...thats just science and its more a problem that the tyre does not have contact to the bad road than that the motor would not have that power...

 

for the seat:

Seat on the Ks is not that comfortable..that is right...but: At all riding seated is only sometimes for quiet experienced riders and i would not recommend it before you are! only than you have a chance to get used to it!

[abinder3]

4 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

The seat is one of the main reasons I want to get the KS 18.  I have a bad back and am not sure how long I could stand up straight.  I get weary fast standing up because I have scoliosis.  I can do things ... but its' just not so fun when I have to spend energy and grit my teeth just to stand up like regular folks.  I was hoping the seat would be a nice way of relaxing and pacing myself between standing sessions.  Do you think someone with back problems would find the seat much of a relief?  And ... if you would mind turning it over in your mind for a while ... do you think there would be a way to make the seat work well?  Lotsa thanks for your feedback!

I don't know, but if someone could adapt a bicycle seat to have a groove under it like the seat that comes with the KS18 does, then maybe that would work.  You just wouldn't be able to have a bicycle seat mounted on the handle of the KS18 and be able to straddle it if you were to ride standing up. 

 

Allen

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

Uh oh, now I am disappointed. I am 220 pounds and this video got me very hopeful.  It is hard to always think straight when you are excited about something fun coming your way.  I guess that's how they sell lottery tickets.

Honestly, I am actually kind of surprised.  I am new to the world of EUC's and even thinking about EUC's.  But at 220 lbs., I am very far from unusual here in America.  And it looks like I am at the far end of who can possibly ride a EUC.

That specific hill is what, 40%? No current EUC will work with that for your weight.

If steeper hills (a bit like in that video, definitely over 10%) are your "I imagine doing this with a wheel" use case (instead of just regular hilly routes, 10% is already a lot), my opinion is, KS wheels will be the best for that - much better safety than Gotway (the possible competitor). The upcoming KS18S (25% stronger than AY) sounds perfect for you (if you can wait, there's no date) but 18AY seems also very good, if you look at the videos (maybe @jrkline can tell you more, he also has videos on that hill behind the KS factory).

Also, EUCs are quite weight sensitive, so if you're overweight, losing some weight will be a double positive :-)

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

17 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

Uh oh, now I am disappointed. I am 220 pounds and this video got me very hopeful.  It is hard to always think straight when you are excited about something fun coming your way.  I guess that's how they sell lottery tickets.

Honestly, I am actually kind of surprised.  I am new to the world of EUC's and even thinking about EUC's.  But at 220 lbs., I am very far from unusual here in America.  And it looks like I am at the far end of who can possibly ride a EUC.

If you want the ultimate hill climber,The 84v ACM is the only choice.It is the best tested hill climbing wheel there is.The KS-18B 1200w is very good and can probably do about 90% of what the ACM can.So if I were you,I would probably get the KS18B.

[kasenutty]

If you have a bad back and can't really stand up for very long, why do you need to be able to ride up a cliff?

[Dingfelder]

2 hours ago, kasenutty said:

If you have a bad back and can't really stand up for very long, why do you need to be able to ride up a cliff?

Not a cliff, but I do have a steep driveway.  And I can stand up for a while, but it's more tiring for me than most people by far, and I have to shift around a lot to relieve the pressure on my spine.  That's why I thought being able to switch between sitting and standing would be ideal.

I know I don't want to carry a 40 or 50 pound machine up my long driveway.  I'm reasonably strong but still, that would be a chore.

 

[Dingfelder]

2 hours ago, jrkline said:

If you want the ultimate hill climber,The 84v ACM is the only choice.It is the best tested hill climbing wheel there is.The KS-18B 1200w is very good and can probably do about 90% of what the ACM can.So if I were you,I would probably get the KS18B.

It's out now, and at a discount, so I've had my eye on it.  I think I will try to wait for the KS18S though, to get an even stronger motor.

Who makes the 84v ACM?

15 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

That specific hill is what, 40%? No current EUC will work with that for your weight.

If steeper hills (a bit like in that video, definitely over 10%) are your "I imagine doing this with a wheel" use case (instead of just regular hilly routes, 10% is already a lot), my opinion is, KS wheels will be the best for that - much better safety than Gotway (the possible competitor). The upcoming KS18S (25% stronger than AY) sounds perfect for you (if you can wait, there's no date) but 18AY seems also very good, if you look at the videos (maybe @jrkline can tell you more, he also has videos on that hill behind the KS factory).

Also, EUCs are quite weight sensitive, so if you're overweight, losing some weight will be a double positive :-)

A stronger version of the KS18 sounds great, thanks for the heads up.

What's going wrong with the Gotway's re: safety?  The Monster looks out of what I'd be comfortable spending on anyway, but I'm just curious.

16 hours ago, abinder3 said:

I don't know, but if someone could adapt a bicycle seat to have a groove under it like the seat that comes with the KS18 does, then maybe that would work.  You just wouldn't be able to have a bicycle seat mounted on the handle of the KS18 and be able to straddle it if you were to ride standing up. 

 

Allen

Yeah I thought of that too.  The narrow bicycle seats are pretty narrow and still comfy enough for hours of riding when you're bicycling, but I'm not surprised that they would still be too wide.  I've never seen an EUC in real life, myself, so I find it hard to picture how good or bad the seated experience would be.

17 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

dont worry...until January i had 220pounds=100kg, also (now down to 85 ,yeah))

its no prob to ride a KS18 or a v3 and in real life they brought me up every! hill....Sorry, this hill from the KS factory...thats just science and its more a problem that the tyre does not have contact to the bad road than that the motor would not have that power...

 

for the seat:

Seat on the Ks is not that comfortable..that is right...but: At all riding seated is only sometimes for quiet experienced riders and i would not recommend it before you are! only than you have a chance to get used to it!

It's good to know you've been riding around at that weight.  I could lose a few pounds, but for my frame, my ideal weight is still over 200.  

So riding while sitting down is actually harder?  I was assuming it would be easier and safer ... I guess I was wrong.  So is it harder to turn, or accelerate, or... what makes it especially difficult?

[Raptor]

5 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

It's out now, and at a discount, so I've had my eye on it.  I think I will try to wait for the KS18S though, to get an even stronger motor.

Who makes the 84v ACM?

A stronger version of the KS18 sounds great, thanks for the heads up.

What's going wrong with the Gotway's re: safety?  The Monster looks out of what I'd be comfortable spending on anyway, but I'm just curious.

Yeah I thought of that too.  The narrow bicycle seats are pretty narrow and still comfy enough for hours of riding when you're bicycling, but I'm not surprised that they would still be too wide.  I've never seen an EUC in real life, myself, so I find it hard to picture how good or bad the seated experience would be.

It's good to know you've been riding around at that weight.  I could lose a few pounds, but for my frame, my ideal weight is still over 200.  

So riding while sitting down is actually harder?  I was assuming it would be easier and safer ... I guess I was wrong.  So is it harder to turn, or accelerate, or... what makes it especially difficult?

This riding while sitting down is just a learning process difficult. This is just different than standing up while driving.While studying, it seems that the need for arms and legs, and the body more to moved. Only learning time,feeling occurs, wheel wants to fall sidewards out.  But it's just a learning process. If you have learned,seems anything at all do not have to do !  

 Brake sharply is the only one that is not so intense ! For braking, better stand up !  

Accelerate sitting down, however, is very acute ! But we must be careful because at the end of the acceleration velocity appears smaller than in reality ! I have on several occasions inadvertently accelerated until interrupted but my ks18 is switched on again ! Very frightening, however, has this ! 

[Dingfelder]

It sounds like a challenge, Raptor.  But I would like to try it.  Thanks for the tips!

I really liked watching this video showing someone on a long ride sitting down:

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

15 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

It's out now, and at a discount, so I've had my eye on it.  I think I will try to wait for the KS18S though, to get an even stronger motor.

Keep in mind, there's not even a date or official confirmation (don't know) yet. This may very well take 6+ months before available (uneducated guess). If you say you can get a good discount on a 18AY... not sure if waiting will do. Also, see KS16B vs 16S, the 16B is 1000€ now, the 16S 1700€ here so the upgrade may very well cost a bit (since the 18AY is already quite expensive, maybe also there will not be such a price increase.)

15 hours ago, Dingfelder said:

Who makes the 84v ACM?

A stronger version of the KS18 sounds great, thanks for the heads up.

What's going wrong with the Gotway's re: safety?  The Monster looks out of what I'd be comfortable spending on anyway, but I'm just curious.

Gotway makes the ACM (16 inch) and msuper V3 (18 inch), the smaller capacities (680,840 Wh) are 67V, the higher (1300,1600 Wh) are 84V which is stronger.

Warning: I'm not an expert or anything! I actually had a long answer to your original post typed out earlier but decided to shorten it to not get offtopic/GW vs KS war. So here are my thoughts.

My personal experience is, I did a ~15% incline run for about 10 mins (or less) with my 1300Wh ACM and that made the motor cables melt and short. There was some bad cabling/missing heat sleeves from the factory, but the overall conclusion was that these cables are too thin for what you could maximally demand from them anyways. You could also argue that mine was a freak occurrence and usually the ACM would have held without problems. Nobody else had this problem, and a lot of people use ACMs and other Gotways for hilly terrain (like @Marty Backe, @jrkline and others on their rides around Los Angeles hills) without problem.

I think it depends more on the actual incline. You could simplify and say, in comparison to lifting a rider, the actual power needed for riding is neglegible. This means, 15% incline means 1.5 higher power demand than 10% incline (because it has to lift your weight 1.5 times higher). Very rough estimate. It just means, incline %age matters (imho).

My subjective conclusion is, I would not use a Gotway wheel for rides that are constantly steeper than 10% incline AND combined with more than 5 minutes of uninterrupted riding. Anything not hitting these two points is most likely safe. By the way, 10% is a lot. Anything above, I cannot say it is unsafe, I can just say I don't know if it is safe and I don't want to risk a crash/damaged wheel.

This is why I believe more in the Kingsongs for long hills >10%, they seem to have better safety considerations, fuses, alarms etc - e.g. the new models 16S and 18S have improved cabling, mosfets, etc to deal with the stronger motors - Gotway just made 84V boards and batteries and left the rest the same. So KS seem to care more about safety and worst case design than Gotway (who seem to be improving btw).

What really convinced me of the KS hill abilities were these videos from behind their factory. @jrkline rode a 18AY up there (look for his videos in the video thread), and while it could not do it, it did not break, just refuse to go further. Which is exactly what you want. He's also about your weight class. So if you got proof that a KS18 can do extreme hills and safely refuse to do it if it can't, what else do you really want? And since you want to go for seated (not sure if that is a realistic end goal, it can be done, but EUCs aren't really made for seated riding) the KS18 has the by far best form factor anyways.

--

Finally, if you just talk about your driveway, any wheel will do a moderately short and moderately steep path, that's not the question. We're talking about the maximum incline any available wheel can do sustainedly. And for that (and only that) I think KS has an advantage in safety so I would prefer them to GW. [they have an advantage for safety in general, but since so many people ride Gotway with so little incidents, it seems to be less important in general, the GWs are good enough already].

Warning: I don't have any experience comparing wheels, be it on hills or in general.

[Dingfelder]

Thanks a lot, meep.  I think I can wait a few months without feeling too squirrely about it, no problem, so unless the wait becomes an extended one, I won't factor it in.  I'd love to ride tomorrow but don't feel like I have to.  

I appreciate your feedback on safety too.  I'd like a machine with adequate cabling, motor, overall quality and safety measurres to do its job.  And I'd pay a premium for it.  I think the Gotway Monster looks great in a lot of ways, but I don't want to pay that much of a premium.  I'm hoping the KS18 S falls half between the KS 18A and the Gotway Monster, if not a bit less.  I'm pretty frugal and rarely spend much money on anything, but for a quality item that looks like it would give me the most fun I've had since I was a bicycle nut as a kid, I'm willing to make a rare exception and go that far, for a change.

I have some steep hills in the development where I live, but think I could cover the whole run from my place to where the community mailboxes are in a couple/few minutes ... so If I understand properly what you're saying, the strain might not be too extreme around home.  I do live in a generally hilly area, though, so I know that almost all my other trip and trail options will be limited if I don't get a strong EUC.  

Thanks for filling me in on what you know and what you're thinking.  I've only been thinking about this stuff for a week or so, so there's a lot to learn and I'm all ears.

[HermanTheGerman]

On 28.2.2017 at 11:00 PM, abinder3 said:

It would be interesting to see the reaction it would get if about 10 people, dressed the way you are in this video, were to roll down a bike path sitting on KS18s like you were.  

And yelling "Allahu akbar!"

[Raptor]

8 hours ago, HermanTheGerman said:

And yelling "Allahu akbar!"

 While this comparison does not fit absolutely !

[HermanTheGerman]

19 hours ago, Raptor said:

 While this comparison does not fit absolutely !

Well, if you think this is better, then yelling: "May the force be with you!"

[MaxLinux]

On 4/23/2017 at 5:54 AM, Dingfelder said:

But at 220 lbs., I am very far from unusual here in America.  And it looks like I am at the far end of who can possibly ride a EUC.

Increasing weight strongly affects EUC hill climbing. I ride my IPS wheels for grocery shopping, and I have 2 tough hills on my route. I am relatively light, approximately 70 kg. With a backpack of groceries strapped on, I really notice the effect of the additional weight riding on those hills when I return home from the grocery store. My wheels still make the climb successfully, but I clearly notice the difference with the loaded backpack. This difference is very noticeable climbing a hill, but almost unnoticeable on level ground.

[MaxLinux]

On 4/23/2017 at 11:38 PM, kasenutty said:

If you have a bad back and can't really stand up for very long, why do you need to be able to ride up a cliff?

For fun, of course!!

[MaxLinux]

On 4/24/2017 at 2:32 AM, Dingfelder said:

Who makes the 84v ACM?

Gotway!

[MaxLinux]

On 4/24/2017 at 5:46 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

What really convinced me of the KS hill abilities were these videos from behind their factory. @jrkline rode a 18AY up there

So if you got proof that a KS18 can do extreme hills and safely refuse to do it if it can't, what else do you really want?

Those videos were very impressive. Hill climbing is the aspect of EUC performance I most care about, and ever since I saw jrkline's footage, I am much more interested in KS, starting to want one!

[Keith]

It was a bit difficult to find in all those video pages - but here it is: 

See around about 5'17" and 8'30" Also this video:

1'40", 3'40" and 8'00" ?