KS16 first impressions: Awesome dealer; still serious product reservations

[Jurgen]

Shit happens. EUC is for innovators, maybe early adopters, these are somewhat 'experimental' devices compared to your fully matured iPad.

Don't worry about your rant, it's just your testosterone levels that are a bit high, but at a certain age they'll automatically start to go down.

And you've shown that you have self-reflection, so eventually you'll learn to suck it up and move on to the really important things in life.

[Cloud]

@ErikT, first of all Welcome to the forum ! 

Please dont worry about expressing your honest opinion, and dont let anyone intimidate you into saying the same thing  the others are saying. We are here to have fun, and to say what we believe to be true, and not to reverberate what may be  the "official" forum opinion on a certain euc model.

Every wheel has its shortcomings, and no wheel is perfect. The industry is rapidly developing. The assessment of the wheel's quality depends a lot pn one's expectations and the standards one will apply. We are alla bunch of enthusiasts here, who are willing to overlook certain minor flaws for the thrill of the experience. You simply applied higher standards ( as they should be applied to something that is worth so much money). Problem is eucs are still made from cheap materials, and due to their novelty and a developing commercial network  pick up quite the cost when they get to the end user. 

Some of the points you made are due to the fact that you have only used the wheel for a day and you are coming from a different wheel experience. It takes a longer time to get used to the way a different wheel rides. For example, i would choose ks16 over airwheel x8 any time of day hands down. 

The pedals may be just a bit larger but it can make a world of difference. When i switched from a slightly smaller pedals to the ks16 pedals i became able to travel twice as long withoiut having to rest my feet. The secret is that the pedal now covers the entire surface of the bones supporting the foot. Before, a small part of the bone was overhanging and it made it extremely painful. Your toes dont have to be supported, it almost doesnt matter if they are.

A lot of the items ypu mentioned are minor, and many of them are adjustable - Jason will help you with the info you need. And he is right, that manual that comes with the wheel isnt very informative, but i am sure he can get you one if you think you need it.

it would be great to hear your impression of the wheel after a couple of weeks. 

Ride on.

 

 

[codersarepeople]

I received my KS-14C on the same day as OP here.  I'm glad I didn't post anything negative, seeing the blowback he got!

But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit upset.  I had read a few negatives about it (no EUC is perfect!), coming from a Ninebot E+, but the ankle pain was pretty extreme for me, and I felt the wheel was very unstable.

It's only been a few days, but my ankles are dealing with the pain better every day.  My right leg (mounting leg) is super brusied, some from the KS and some from trying to film some tricks for the video contest!  It's feeling more stable, and I'm feeling more comfortable going faster on it, finally managed to hit 30 kmph.

Some of these complaints are simply coming from a 16" to a 14" (wanted portability) and some are just getting used to things, but I'm definitely waiting a few weeks before I reach any conclusions.

[Cloud]

10 minutes ago, codersarepeople said:

I received my KS-14C on the same day as OP here.  I'm glad I didn't post anything negative, seeing the blowback he got!

But I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit upset.  I had read a few negatives about it (no EUC is perfect!), coming from a Ninebot E+, but the ankle pain was pretty extreme for me, and I felt the wheel was very unstable.

It's only been a few days, but my ankles are dealing with the pain better every day.  My right leg (mounting leg) is super brusied, some from the KS and some from trying to film some tricks for the video contest!  It's feeling more stable, and I'm feeling more comfortable going faster on it, finally managed to hit 30 kmph.

Some of these complaints are simply coming from a 16" to a 14" (wanted portability) and some are just getting used to things, but I'm definitely waiting a few weeks before I reach any conclusions.

Coming from a much stiffer ninebot e+, ks14c will feel very washy with a soft ride. The wheel will give in to the lean and will slowly assume horizontal position, which can be uncomfortable after being used to a much stiffer wheel. But its just as easy to get used to ks14c over a few weeks. Very interesting what you will say after doing some 200-300 km on it. You may fall in love  the foot pain will go away soon too  ( mine lasted the first 3 weeks)

[Marty Backe]

I just ordered a KS-14C. Every time I get on my current generic 14" wheel it initially feels very unstable compared to my ACM 16. But then I soon get used to it, and it then feels highly maneuverable. So I think the stability thing is just an artifact of it being 14" vs 16" or 18". It's not KS specific. 

[codersarepeople]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I just ordered a KS-14C. Every time I get on my current generic 14" wheel it initially feels very unstable compared to my ACM 16. But then I soon get used to it, and it then feels highly maneuverable. So I think the stability thing is just an artifact of it being 14" vs 16" or 18". It's not KS specific. 

That could be the case.  I thought one thing about KS is that when you steer "with your ankles" you are less stable, as opposed to steering with your calves as I did on my nb1e+.  Time will certainly tell though.  As long as this ankle pain goes away, I will be more than happy to sell my nb1 though, since now I feel like I can ride in the bike lane around town without facing constant beeping/tiltback.

[Cloud]

@codersarepeople, i bet that after riding ks14 for a month or two you will have no doubt in your mind that ninebot should be for sale. There will be no coming back to a bulkier, weeker, less manoeuverable and slower wheel, trust me.  Unless you keep it as a back up wheel,myhats a different story

[Marty Backe]

34 minutes ago, codersarepeople said:

That could be the case.  I thought one thing about KS is that when you steer "with your ankles" you are less stable, as opposed to steering with your calves as I did on my nb1e+.  Time will certainly tell though.  As long as this ankle pain goes away, I will be more than happy to sell my nb1 though, since now I feel like I can ride in the bike lane around town without facing constant beeping/tiltback.

My sense is that I steer the same on a 14" or 16".

BTW, what's worked great for me regarding ankle pain is to cut some 1" thick foam (the soft kind) and wedge it in the side of my shoe and stick it under my pants. An 8" or so long piece of foam. Substantially reduces the pressure against your leg but still allows for good control.

[EricGhost]

@ErikT I've never rode an EUC and after more than half a century of life on end of June 2016 I bought a KS16, here in my 2 cents:

1 - Do not give up! After the 1rst hour I was thinking I throw away my money and some of your feeling were mine too (out of the protective foam that was the 1rst thing I put on the wheel), but as I never rode an EUC I put the blame on me. Today the KS app says something more than 1300 Km (it's buggy so really I'm around the 1000 Km), I turn the wheel 90deg almost on a dime but do not ask me the exact mechanic   Now I feel the wheel and I turn it, at the beginning (two month ago) I would have been more accurate describing my temptatives, but now .... I even wonder why was so difficult to start wihout a post with one foot down,   After 7 days practices on the roller park I exit it, after 15days I was traveling with an unsure feeling and scare about any possible unexpected event, only after one month I start to feel confortable .....

2 - Do not bother the bad comments in the forum just write what you feel it's right just because you believe it, you were not offensive in your ranting and it was quite civilized and quite objective in addressing your feelings and that's difficult when anger has a grip on you, and I can understand you as in the 1rst hour on (more off than on) my EUC I was thinking at my over thounsand EUROs wasted

I'm not young and I like the KS16 approach on the safety issue, limited speed at 30KMh with strong batteries, reduced speed with weaker batteries, with FW 1.22 a smoother riding and overpower control, then I set the limits to 28-29-30-30 and so far enjoied 30-35km runs without problems. 

I hope in the next future to hear again from you joining the same positive feeling, good luck & practice

[HEC]

2 hours ago, Cloud said:

Coming from a much stiffer ninebot e+, ks14c will feel very washy with a soft ride. The wheel will give in to the lean and will slowly assume horizontal position, which can be uncomfortable after being used to a much stiffer wheel

Interestingly enough I have now exactly opposite issue coming from KS-16 to V8 ... I've got used after months of daily riding and thousands of Km to this leaning of the wheel into the curves and now I feel like V8 is "fighting" me during turns as it's much more stiffer and trying to stand up so I need to discover / learn another approach for the turns with V8.

[Greg Spalding]

4 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

I just ordered a KS-14C. Every time I get on my current generic 14" wheel it initially feels very unstable compared to my ACM 16. But then I soon get used to it, and it then feels highly maneuverable. So I think the stability thing is just an artifact of it being 14" vs 16" or 18". It's not KS specific. 

Good morning, Marty

glad to hear you will be getting the 14C, as well. How do you see that particular wheel fitting in with your particular riding? I know that you like to take longer rides and range is important to you. I'm wondering what range you would expect from the 14C?  Having a more Nimble wheel will be a lot of fun, as well.

When will it be arriving?

[Greg Spalding]

1 hour ago, HEC said:

Interestingly enough I have now exactly opposite issue coming from KS-16 to V8 ... I've got used after months of daily riding and thousands of Km to this leaning of the wheel into the curves and now I feel like V8 is "fighting" me during turns as it's much more stiffer and trying to stand up so I need to discover / learn another approach for the turns with V8.

I am anxious to hear more about this phenomenon for you. One of my concerns about the V8 is that it is so much thinner than one of the KingSong wheels so that you don't have the same great with your ankles on it, thereby giving you an impression that it is more difficult to turn. I wonder if this, if you stop to think about it, is part of the issue you are having with it?

[HEC]

27 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

I am anxious to hear more about this phenomenon for you. One of my concerns about the V8 is that it is so much thinner than one of the KingSong wheels so that you don't have the same great with your ankles on it, thereby giving you an impression that it is more difficult to turn. I wonder if this, if you stop to think about it, is part of the issue you are having with it?

I don't really steer by ankles (or calves) but mainly by shifting the weight / tilting and pushing the pedals by the feet. I personally don't have issues with V8 being thinner (coming previously from fairly slim Solowheel Xtreme) and most of the time I don't even touch the wheel side with my legs during ride though I do "grab" it if passing some more bumpy areas to avoid feet slippage or even being catapulted up ... The difference between V8 and KS-16 is for me manly in the different riding mode and as with any other wheel change it needs a bit of time to get use to it. I had no problems to ride it home yesterday afternoon and again back to work today morning but I just felt different comparing to KS-16 and required a bit more concentration from my side but I'm sure that will pass soon after more Km spent on the wheel

[Greg Spalding]

3 minutes ago, HEC said:

I don't really steer by ankles (or calves) but mainly by shifting the weight / tilting and pushing the pedals by the feet. I personally don't have issues with V8 being thinner (coming previously from fairly slim Solowheel Xtreme) and most of the time I don't even touch the wheel side with my legs during ride though I do "grab" it if passing some more bumpy areas to avoid feet slippage or even being catapulted up ... The difference between V8 and KS-16 is for me manly in the different riding mode and as with any other wheel change it needs a bit of time to get use to it. I had no problems to ride it home yesterday afternoon and again back to work today morning but I just felt different to KS-16 and required a bit more concentration from my side but I'm sure that will pass soon after more Km on the wheel

I appreciate that clarification

I suppose it does make it more fun that each wheel is a little bit different

I look forward to hearing your continued comments about this particular wheel which interests me a lot

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Greg Spalding said:

Good morning, Marty

glad to hear you will be getting the 14C, as well. How do you see that particular wheel fitting in with your particular riding? I know that you like to take longer rides and range is important to you. I'm wondering what range you would expect from the 14C?  Having a more Nimble wheel will be a lot of fun, as well.

When will it be arriving?

Hey Greg. Fedex says I'll get it this Wednesday - can't wait.

You know, I'm in the 'collectors' phase of wheeling :-)  I can't get enough of it, so I want to have the variety of a 14", 16", and 18" wheel. Kind of like having a collection of shirts to pick from for the day. "Hmmm, today I feel like riding a nimble 14 inch wheel".

I'm anticipating using the KS for more of my town riding, but I'm sure it won't be limited to that.

[Greg Spalding]

2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Hey Greg. Fedex says I'll get it this Wednesday - can't wait.

You know, I'm in the 'collectors' phase of wheeling :-)  I can't get enough of it, so I want to have the variety of a 14", 16", and 18" wheel. Kind of like having a collection of shirts to pick from for the day. "Hmmm, today I feel like riding a nimble 14 inch wheel".

I'm anticipating using the KS for more of my town riding, but I'm sure it won't be limited to that.

Sounds great to me. I have never gotten out of my collector's phase when it comes to photography so I can fully understand that

I'm anxious to find out what kind of range you will personally get on that new 14 inch wheel

a very exciting time for all of us, indeed

[ErikT]

First Impressions Review v2.0 (after 72 hrs KS16 ownership):

Let's try this again, and see if I can recover from the negative reputation thunderstorm I brought upon myself in the first version (OP)!

First, it's clear to me that all the flack resulted from most readers incorrectly believing that I was down on @Jason McNeil. Quite to the contrary, I was very complimentary toward Jason in the original post, and emphasized that my complaints were with the product, not him. But that didn't come till the end, by which time I suppose most readers were already pissed off.

So let me be really clear this time: @Jason McNeil (dealer who sold me the KS16) enjoys a "rock star" reputation on this site for good reason. He's a perfect gentleman, and you would be absolutely crazy to even consider buying a wheel from anyone else. What went wrong is that Jason has a standard "Welcome e-mail" full of critically important information that you absolutely need to have. The manufacturer's product manual is reportedly completely useless (I've not seen it myself). So Jason provides info about how to set up the smartphone app, instructions to unlock the speed limit and configure the speed warnings, and a bunch of other really useful stuff. But due to a fluke situation, they forgot to send it to me. So when I received the wheel with no documentation whatsoever and no clue where to start, I e-mailed Jason saying hey, there's no manual. He assumed I already had the critical e-mail, so he just replied offhandedly, "Don't worry, it's useless anyway, you don't need it". I was justifiably upset because it seemed the dealer who just sold me a $1700 (after import duties to Mexico) toy was brushing me off after sending me a wheel with no indication whatsoever of how to set it up!

Once we identified the source of confusion, @Jason McNeil has been an absolute savior. He sent me the missing e-mail, and suddenly everything started to make sense. So I have to say this again for any newcomers: DO NOT EVEN THINK OF BUYING ONE OF THESE THINGS FROM ANYONE ELSE. You urgently need information that Jason can provide, but the manufacturer doesn't bother to. If you buy this thing off eBay without Jason's support, you will be totally screwed!

Ok, have I adequately appeased Jason's fan club here now? I hope so, because I'm sticking to my guns on almost all of the product quality issues in the OP. This is an extremely poorly engineered product. Admittedly, now that I understand it better, I retract my statement that it's even worse than Airwheel. But now that I've calmed down and gotten over the emotional reaction, I'd say if Airwheel gets a C- in the engineering review, KS16 scores a C+ at best.

I'll elaborate on why I'm so unimpressed with the product quality below, but first some context will be most useful to newcomers who actually came to this thread to learn about the KS16, as opposed to the fan club members who came to put me in my place for attacking Jason (something I never actually did, by the way). After getting my airwheel, I fell in love with the EUC concept. If you never rode one of these things, my advice is GET ONE. They're cool as shit. But I knew I had bought the Hyundai of EUCs (Airwheel), and fortunately I can afford to do better. I decided ok, I'm going to just go buy the Porche of EUCs. I don't care what it costs. I came to this forum to discover what the Porsche of EUCs is, and after much advice from @Cloud and others in the Gotway threads, I finally decided that for my needs, KS16 was the better "Porsche choice" for me than Msuper3, the other model I was considering.

The single most important thing for newbies to understand is that there simply is no "Porsche of EUCs". It just plain doesn't exist, at any price. EUCs are apparently a nascent industry, and you have to be willing to tolerate the shortcomings inherent to any "early adopter" technology. A true statement about KS16 is that unless you're extremely good at researching complex technical information on your own, you almost HAVE TO buy it from @Jason McNeil, because the thing is practically useless until you either receive his welcome note e-mail or find the information it contains on your own, which would be hard. Furthermore, it's not a Porsche, or anything remotely close. I likened the Airwheel to a Hyundai earlier, but a better analogy would be that Airwheel is like horse & buggy, and KS16 is like a Toyota Tercel or Honda Civic. An old 1980s Honda Civic CVCC, to be precise.

My big mistake that led to my huge disappointment and angry rant in the OP is that I had built up my own expectations for the arrival of my Porsche. Again, that doesn't exist yet in the EUC market, at any price. I hope this review will help others avoid my mistake of thinking it did.

The trolley handle is a brilliant idea, but it's very poorly engineered. It needs to be 2" taller for a person of my height (6') to walk it comfortably without having to crouch over slightly. This is probably a design oversight stemming from its origins in Asia, where most people are shorter than I am. More importantly, it's poorly built. Collapsing it down so it locks in the down/carry position is clumsy. Sometimes one or the other side of the trolley handle doesn't lock down, so when you pick up the wheel it bends up (one side only), and you have to put it down and re-lock it. Poorly engineered mechanism.

The trolley handle is not designed to lift the weight of the wheel when extended. It should be - this is VERY important. When you're walking the wheel you're likely going to need to go over some obstacles the wheel can't drive over (that's probably why you're walking it rather than riding it in the first place). If you lift it up to go over the obstacle, first it's not designed to carry the weight with handle extended, but also the wheel will spin up so you "lay rubber" when you set it back down. A switch on the extended handle to temporarily disable the motor would be such an obvious design enhancement.

After disabling the voice prompt mode in the smartphone app, it no longer announces "Hello KingSong!" to the entire neighborhood over its rather loud built-in speakers during power-on. But when I push the small control button several times trying to get the headlight to turn off, I get the announcement (Hello Kingsong!) again during the process of trying to shut the light off! It's not possible to totally disable it, apparently. The most likely explanation here is I'm not using the small button correctly because I don't understand how it works. But that information isn't in Jason's welcome e-mail, and I don't have the manual, so I'm forced to guess. Meanwhile other forum users have confirmed that it's not possible to program which mode is desired for the light at startup. Why not? Is the lead product engineer still a sophomore in undergrad engineering school or something?

The PWM whine is quite noticeable and annoying. Look, DC electric motor control through pulse-width modulation is a very well developed field of engineering. It's been around for like 50+ years now. I'm not a power circuit engineer myself, so I can't tell you exactly what mistake was made in this design, but plenty of other products in the world are able to deliver high-torque PWM motor control without audibly noisy circuits. This is B-grade engineering at best.

Yes, it's true I made an absolute fool of myself in the OP by "not getting it" that the decorative LED array also serves as a battery level meter when the wheel is turned on and stationary. Glad you guys all had a good laugh. But now that I understand it, I'm back to tell you I'm as unimpressed as ever. A small LCD near the power button showing me battery level in XX% format would be so much better. First you have to turn it ON to check the battery level. Next those LEDs are on the sides, so it's a different place to look, and impossible to glance at while riding (although I suppose you could look at the phone app while riding). My objection stands from the OP: This thing is designed as a children's toy. Ok, I see why the manufacturer wants to appeal to the teenage hoverboard market, so a bunch of decorative lights appeals to that market. To me, the biggest disappointment was realizing I can't just take the LEDs out and throw them in the trash, because they're needed for the battery level function.

The placement and material selection for the "foam pads" is pathetic. It's clear to me that they just decided the thing would look cool with "foam pads", so they stuck some on. The height of placement is awkward as hell, and I have to believe they could have sourced softer foam that would actually deliver the function one intuitively desires when they think of a "padded" EUC. I'm tempted to just peel these pads off and make my own padding out of mattress memory foam or something. Admittedly that would have to be "sacrificial" if you dropped it on pavement, but that's probably true of these pads as well.

@Jason McNeil tells me the design center across the EUC market is "sacrificial" outer plastic skins, so you can beat the thing up then replace the outer skin for about $100. Ok, I feel a little better knowing that, but not much. Materials science is a well developed field. You could build the chassis out of carbon fiber and then have sacrificial foam pads that an engineer actually thought about the placement of, for example. This shit ain't that hard, folks, but it's pretty clear that the people designing these things are amateur-level engineers with little ergonomics training.

The pedals are indeed bigger than Airwheel, but still too small. Like the trolley handle, my guess is this is because these things come from Asia where people are smaller and have smaller feet. But seriously, dude, there are plenty of engineers in Asia who are able to comprehend the concept that if you're marketing a product to Westerners, you need to build it for Westerners. This is amateur-league engineering, plain and simple.

I definitely retract my statement that I "deeply regret the purchase" in the OP. But again, for newcomers to this sport, please understand the reason: I said that because I thought I had ordered the best of the best, and what I got was crap. What @Jason McNeil very patiently and politely helped me understand on the phone, is that the piece of crap I got really is the best of the best, as the EUC market currently stands. I didn't understand how much of an early-adopter phase the EUC market is still stuck in, and I now appreciate that my new wheel really is probably the best model on the market for my needs, even if it's still a piece of crap, which it is.

Seems like an awfully ripe opportunity for someone who actually graduated already from engineering school to come and upstage the current manufacturers by introducing something that really is the "Porsche of EUCs". I'm psyched to buy one as soon as it hits the market, even if it's double the price of KS16, and I'll be waiting for @Jason McNeil to tell me when that product is available. He's a perfect gentleman and I trust him completely to be honest and not try to sell me anything that's not a fit for my needs. Jason, if you're reading, I hope you'll call me first when someone eventually brings the Porsche of EUCs to market. Meanwhile I'll get over my attitude problem, and enjoy my new Toyota Tercel (KS16).

Erik

 

[Marty Backe]

I think your expectations are too high for this nascent technology. These are $1000 (plus or minus) devices designed and manufactured by Mom & Pop companies with limited resources. Given that, I think they're producing great products.

You don't like Bling (I don't either). I think KS is much more of a Bling company. Gotway is not. I think they both produce Porsche (performance) type products, but in the context of this market. In absolute terms you're correct - the quality is sorely missing.

You have strong opinions for sure, but your commentary is on the harsh side ("what I got was crap"), so you'll be inviting controversy. If you read the forums here and elsewhere you'll see that your views are more outliers, which unfortunately for you will mean that most people will dismiss them. Think about it, if KS was building and delivering "crap" to the masses, I don't think they would have much of a market share. My sense is that most people think of them in a positive light.

But in the end it's good to have a mix of opinions for people to consider when making their choices.

[Xoltri]

Interesting reading your follow up.  I took my KS16 12km to work today, I have about 1500km on it this year and I love it.  

The issue with the padding on the wheel is moot in my opinion.  Once you get some experience on the wheel your legs don't touch the padding much anyway.  If you are constantly squeezing the wheel between your legs you are either riding it wrong or need more experience.  That's normal though, when I was first learning on my old wheel I had bruises on my calves and wore all of the hair off of the inside of my legs.  Same with a buddy who spent a couple hours trying to learn to ride my KS16, his legs were brusied for a couple weeks.  So maybe while learning put some padding on that you can later remove.

It does seem to me though that you are focusing on all of the negative things on the wheel.  Sure, I'd like it if I could pick it up with the handle extended and not have it spin out.  But I've learned to work around this...as long as the wheel is touching the ground somewhat you can go up and down curbs just fine with the handle extended.  I do find the handle very useful, and even my wife who's 6"3' can use it just fine, so I'm surprised you say it's too short. 

Yeah, the lights on the side are a bit flashy for my tastes and I don't really use them for the battery level anyway.  But the app is infinitely better than some LED's on the wheel so I just use that.  Plus the visibility at night can't hurt.  And if I could choose I would probably eliminate the whine of the motor when driving, but neither you nor I are engineers so we can't really comment on the quality of the engineering being the cause of it.  Besides, quite simply you get used to it and it's not a big deal.  It looks like a device from the future and with the noise it kind of sounds like the future too.  Maybe larger pedals would be good, but there is a compromise to be had there too.  Larger pedals means that you have less clearance when turning.  I find them fine...sometimes if I am riding tense my feet get sore, but that's more from standing in one place than anything.  Getting off the wheel and walking a half block usually cures the soreness.

But anyway, the wheel is more than a collection of it's shortcomings.  It rides so smooth, up and down hills, even into the wind at 30km'h.  It's like nothing else really.  Once you are experienced enough with it to do that hopefully you will see why this is a good machine.  It really is an amazing ride.  I agree as a whole that the EUC market has some ways to go before it is mature.  But for now, I think most people agree that the KS16 is one of the best.

 

[Greg Spalding]

2 hours ago, ErikT said:

First Impressions Review v2.0 (after 72 hrs KS16 ownership):

Let's try this again, and see if I can recover from the negative reputation thunderstorm I brought upon myself in the first version (OP)!

First, it's clear to me that all the flack resulted from most readers incorrectly believing that I was down on @Jason McNeil. Quite to the contrary, I was very complimentary toward Jason in the original post, and emphasized that my complaints were with the product, not him. But that didn't come till the end, by which time I suppose most readers were already pissed off.

So let me be really clear this time: @Jason McNeil (dealer who sold me the KS16) enjoys a "rock star" reputation on this site for good reason. He's a perfect gentleman, and you would be absolutely crazy to even consider buying a wheel from anyone else. What went wrong is that Jason has a standard "Welcome e-mail" full of critically important information that you absolutely need to have. The manufacturer's product manual is reportedly completely useless (I've not seen it myself). So Jason provides info about how to set up the smartphone app, instructions to unlock the speed limit and configure the speed warnings, and a bunch of other really useful stuff. But due to a fluke situation, they forgot to send it to me. So when I received the wheel with no documentation whatsoever and no clue where to start, I e-mailed Jason saying hey, there's no manual. He assumed I already had the critical e-mail, so he just replied offhandedly, "Don't worry, it's useless anyway, you don't need it". I was justifiably upset because it seemed the dealer who just sold me a $1700 (after import duties to Mexico) toy was brushing me off after sending me a wheel with no indication whatsoever of how to set it up!

Once we identified the source of confusion, @Jason McNeil has been an absolute savior. He sent me the missing e-mail, and suddenly everything started to make sense. So I have to say this again for any newcomers: DO NOT EVEN THINK OF BUYING ONE OF THESE THINGS FROM ANYONE ELSE. You urgently need information that Jason can provide, but the manufacturer doesn't bother to. If you buy this thing off eBay without Jason's support, you will be totally screwed!

Ok, have I adequately appeased Jason's fan club here now? I hope so, because I'm sticking to my guns on almost all of the product quality issues in the OP. This is an extremely poorly engineered product. Admittedly, now that I understand it better, I retract my statement that it's even worse than Airwheel. But now that I've calmed down and gotten over the emotional reaction, I'd say if Airwheel gets a C- in the engineering review, KS16 scores a C+ at best.

I'll elaborate on why I'm so unimpressed with the product quality below, but first some context will be most useful to newcomers who actually came to this thread to learn about the KS16, as opposed to the fan club members who came to put me in my place for attacking Jason (something I never actually did, by the way). After getting my airwheel, I fell in love with the EUC concept. If you never rode one of these things, my advice is GET ONE. They're cool as shit. But I knew I had bought the Hyundai of EUCs (Airwheel), and fortunately I can afford to do better. I decided ok, I'm going to just go buy the Porche of EUCs. I don't care what it costs. I came to this forum to discover what the Porsche of EUCs is, and after much advice from @Cloud and others in the Gotway threads, I finally decided that for my needs, KS16 was the better "Porsche choice" for me than Msuper3, the other model I was considering.

The single most important thing for newbies to understand is that there simply is no "Porsche of EUCs". It just plain doesn't exist, at any price. EUCs are apparently a nascent industry, and you have to be willing to tolerate the shortcomings inherent to any "early adopter" technology. A true statement about KS16 is that unless you're extremely good at researching complex technical information on your own, you almost HAVE TO buy it from @Jason McNeil, because the thing is practically useless until you either receive his welcome note e-mail or find the information it contains on your own, which would be hard. Furthermore, it's not a Porsche, or anything remotely close. I likened the Airwheel to a Hyundai earlier, but a better analogy would be that Airwheel is like horse & buggy, and KS16 is like a Toyota Tercel or Honda Civic. An old 1980s Honda Civic CVCC, to be precise.

My big mistake that led to my huge disappointment and angry rant in the OP is that I had built up my own expectations for the arrival of my Porsche. Again, that doesn't exist yet in the EUC market, at any price. I hope this review will help others avoid my mistake of thinking it did.

The trolley handle is a brilliant idea, but it's very poorly engineered. It needs to be 2" taller for a person of my height (6') to walk it comfortably without having to crouch over slightly. This is probably a design oversight stemming from its origins in Asia, where most people are shorter than I am. More importantly, it's poorly built. Collapsing it down so it locks in the down/carry position is clumsy. Sometimes one or the other side of the trolley handle doesn't lock down, so when you pick up the wheel it bends up (one side only), and you have to put it down and re-lock it. Poorly engineered mechanism.

The trolley handle is not designed to lift the weight of the wheel when extended. It should be - this is VERY important. When you're walking the wheel you're likely going to need to go over some obstacles the wheel can't drive over (that's probably why you're walking it rather than riding it in the first place). If you lift it up to go over the obstacle, first it's not designed to carry the weight with handle extended, but also the wheel will spin up so you "lay rubber" when you set it back down. A switch on the extended handle to temporarily disable the motor would be such an obvious design enhancement.

After disabling the voice prompt mode in the smartphone app, it no longer announces "Hello KingSong!" to the entire neighborhood over its rather loud built-in speakers during power-on. But when I push the small control button several times trying to get the headlight to turn off, I get the announcement (Hello Kingsong!) again during the process of trying to shut the light off! It's not possible to totally disable it, apparently. The most likely explanation here is I'm not using the small button correctly because I don't understand how it works. But that information isn't in Jason's welcome e-mail, and I don't have the manual, so I'm forced to guess. Meanwhile other forum users have confirmed that it's not possible to program which mode is desired for the light at startup. Why not? Is the lead product engineer still a sophomore in undergrad engineering school or something?

The PWM whine is quite noticeable and annoying. Look, DC electric motor control through pulse-width modulation is a very well developed field of engineering. It's been around for like 50+ years now. I'm not a power circuit engineer myself, so I can't tell you exactly what mistake was made in this design, but plenty of other products in the world are able to deliver high-torque PWM motor control without audibly noisy circuits. This is B-grade engineering at best.

Yes, it's true I made an absolute fool of myself in the OP by "not getting it" that the decorative LED array also serves as a battery level meter when the wheel is turned on and stationary. Glad you guys all had a good laugh. But now that I understand it, I'm back to tell you I'm as unimpressed as ever. A small LCD near the power button showing me battery level in XX% format would be so much better. First you have to turn it ON to check the battery level. Next those LEDs are on the sides, so it's a different place to look, and impossible to glance at while riding (although I suppose you could look at the phone app while riding). My objection stands from the OP: This thing is designed as a children's toy. Ok, I see why the manufacturer wants to appeal to the teenage hoverboard market, so a bunch of decorative lights appeals to that market. To me, the biggest disappointment was realizing I can't just take the LEDs out and throw them in the trash, because they're needed for the battery level function.

The placement and material selection for the "foam pads" is pathetic. It's clear to me that they just decided the thing would look cool with "foam pads", so they stuck some on. The height of placement is awkward as hell, and I have to believe they could have sourced softer foam that would actually deliver the function one intuitively desires when they think of a "padded" EUC. I'm tempted to just peel these pads off and make my own padding out of mattress memory foam or something. Admittedly that would have to be "sacrificial" if you dropped it on pavement, but that's probably true of these pads as well.

@Jason McNeil tells me the design center across the EUC market is "sacrificial" outer plastic skins, so you can beat the thing up then replace the outer skin for about $100. Ok, I feel a little better knowing that, but not much. Materials science is a well developed field. You could build the chassis out of carbon fiber and then have sacrificial foam pads that an engineer actually thought about the placement of, for example. This shit ain't that hard, folks, but it's pretty clear that the people designing these things are amateur-level engineers with little ergonomics training.

The pedals are indeed bigger than Airwheel, but still too small. Like the trolley handle, my guess is this is because these things come from Asia where people are smaller and have smaller feet. But seriously, dude, there are plenty of engineers in Asia who are able to comprehend the concept that if you're marketing a product to Westerners, you need to build it for Westerners. This is amateur-league engineering, plain and simple.

I definitely retract my statement that I "deeply regret the purchase" in the OP. But again, for newcomers to this sport, please understand the reason: I said that because I thought I had ordered the best of the best, and what I got was crap. What @Jason McNeil very patiently and politely helped me understand on the phone, is that the piece of crap I got really is the best of the best, as the EUC market currently stands. I didn't understand how much of an early-adopter phase the EUC market is still stuck in, and I now appreciate that my new wheel really is probably the best model on the market for my needs, even if it's still a piece of crap, which it is.

Seems like an awfully ripe opportunity for someone who actually graduated already from engineering school to come and upstage the current manufacturers by introducing something that really is the "Porsche of EUCs". I'm psyched to buy one as soon as it hits the market, even if it's double the price of KS16, and I'll be waiting for @Jason McNeil to tell me when that product is available. He's a perfect gentleman and I trust him completely to be honest and not try to sell me anything that's not a fit for my needs. Jason, if you're reading, I hope you'll call me first when someone eventually brings the Porsche of EUCs to market. Meanwhile I'll get over my attitude problem, and enjoy my new Toyota Tercel (KS16).

ERIK

Thanks for taking the time to update us

everyone will chime in, but I think it comes down to what I've said before

if you don't have $2000 to throw in the toilet and not miss don't buy one of these items

I never said $2000 wasn't a lot of money to me, or that it shouldn't be a lot of money to everyone but the point is disposable income is the only thing one should ever spend on an item such as this ever... PERIOD

 

I hope you will like it more in time in that your new skins will stay pristine for many, many miles

thanks for being here and giving us another update

[Cloud]

@ErikT, thanks for the updated review. As i was saying earlier in this thread, please dont worry about appeasing the forum crowd, or having a different opinion. The forum would become a terrible place if it was turned into a "cult" where differing opinions are not tolerated, or where certain dealers are revered by all. As soon as a forum becomes a " religion" it virtually dies as a free , cutting edge source of information and a place we come to to have fun and feel at home. This being said, i thank you for expressing your honest emotions and thoughts, both the first time and in your updated review.

yes you hit the nail on the head, no euc is perfect, and most people here have adjusted to apply a discounted standard to it and willing to overlook minor issues as this technology rapidly develops and the improvements are under way. You are right about certain items which were not designed perfectly and its important that people know about them and voice their dissatisfaction so that the manufacturers take notice. Your dissatisfaction stemmed from a different set of expectations and somewhat from the insifficient time spent getting used to the new wheel. Once you venture to use all of the wheel's power, speed, and stamina, you will probably feel a little different.

[US69]

As Cloud says...everybody has the right to have his own opinion:

Mine is: This updated review is still missing the point, Seams you are buying your Porsches just for the look...and not for driving!

The Fancy LED's can be turned out by app! the trolley is still the best on an Euc ever, you should have tried a MSuperv3, where the trolley rod is from about an 1/4 of the material and really flimsy....

all this aspects could have been ALL seen over if you just read one or two reviews of the KS16 here before you bought it!

but for me this all comes to going over some minor things, which are even 10times worse on other Euc's...and missing the most important points:

 The driving abilities...range...speed...stability...safety!...no cut outs..adjustable tiltback...adjustable warning beeps...(or speech) ...Firmware upgradablity...integrated music...

Is one of this things on your X8? i dont think so :-)

So to take it on cars: you are whining that your Porsche is just looking like an Toyota Mx5...while you totally oversee that it is driving like an ferrari

[MaxLinux]

7 hours ago, ErikT said:

I thought I had ordered the best of the best, and what I got was crap

What in the world? I think we've seen that in the EUC community, the KS16 is regarded as a top-tier wheel. I'm pretty sure if KS16 owners were surveyed, none besides ErikT would call it "crap." As far as I know, 0 reviewers have called it "crap."

[Cloud]

39 minutes ago, MaxLinux said:

What in the world? I think we've seen that in the EUC community, the KS16 is regarded as a top-tier wheel. I'm pretty sure if KS16 owners were surveyed, none besides ErikT would call it "crap." As far as I know, 0 reviewers have called it "crap."

He was just upset and concentrated on minor wheel features and didnt have enough experience and time to fully appreciate and enjoy the full power of the wheel.  KS 16 is in the top class in terms of its performance specs and add on perks, but certain auxilary features still need some fine tuning.

[ErikT]

2 hours ago, MaxLinux said:

What in the world? I think we've seen that in the EUC community, the KS16 is regarded as a top-tier wheel. I'm pretty sure if KS16 owners were surveyed, none besides ErikT would call it "crap." As far as I know, 0 reviewers have called it "crap."

5 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

As Cloud says...everybody has the right to have his own opinion:

Mine is: This updated review is still missing the point, Seams you are buying your Porsches just for the look...and not for driving!

The Fancy LED's can be turned out by app! the trolley is still the best on an Euc ever, you should have tried a MSuperv3, where the trolley rod is from about an 1/4 of the material and really flimsy....

all this aspects could have been ALL seen over if you just read one or two reviews of the KS16 here before you bought it!

but for me this all comes to going over some minor things, which are even 10times worse on other Euc's...and missing the most important points:

 The driving abilities...range...speed...stability...safety!...no cut outs..adjustable tiltback...adjustable warning beeps...(or speech) ...Firmware upgradablity...integrated music...

Is one of this things on your X8? i dont think so :-)

So to take it on cars: you are whining that your Porsche is just looking like an Toyota Mx5...while you totally oversee that it is driving like an ferrari

Hmm. Interesting community here. Thanks, @Cloud for the sober response.

@kingsong69, I think you're missing my point completely. To suggest I'm "buying the Porsche just for the look...and not for the driving!" after I just detailed a number of driving-related objections, including an opinion that the focus on "bling" (decorative LEDs) is misplaced... Frankly, sir, that's pretty ignorant. Not quite as ignorant as to say that "As far as I know 0 reviewers have called it crap" in direct response to a review calling it crap, but pretty close! My point, and I think it was entirely clear, is that newcomers should take to heart that this is a nascent industry, and the "Porsche of EUCs" doesn't exist yet, regardless of whether your yardstick is the driving or the look. The trolley handle may very well be the "best on an EUC ever!", and I don't doubt that it is. But that doesn't change the fact that it's very poorly engineered. Without realizing it, you're in violent agreement with my fundamental assertion: This market is in its infancy, and CRAP like the KS16 trolley handle are perceived as wonderful innovations because they're the best ever yet, in a nascent cottage industry that has yet to deliver quality in a meaningful way.

@xoltri, please speak for yourself before making comments like "neither you nor I are engineers". I did acknowledge that my own engineering background is not in PWM motor control circuitry in specific, but I am most assuredly an experienced engineer, and am sufficiently versed in current MOSFET and PWM technologies to comment intelligently that the PWM whine is unnecessary. I'm considerably more knowledgeable about embedded hardware and software systems, and my opinion criticizing inability to program the desired power-on state of the headlamp is well informed by cognizance of persistent storage capabilities of current FLASH-enabled MCUs in contrast to the PROM/NVRAM-based microprocessor control systems of yesteryear. If you're going to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about when it comes to engineering aspects of all this, please be prepared to support your allegations with informed arguments.

EUCs are a freaking awesome invention, and I anxiously await the day that we see some that truly are not crap enter the market. As I have already acknowledged several times now, I get it - the KS16 is the state of the art and the best of the best in the context of the 2016 EUC market. I feel sorry for the majority here who fail to see that for what it truly is: an indication that the EUC market has a long way to go, as opposed to the very badly flawed but commonplace perception that the KS16 is as good as it could be. It's not. It's crap, but it's the best we have, and I'm delighted to have upgraded from Airwheel (total crap) to something better, even if only a little better.

I hope some young ambitious entrepreneurs will seize the excellent opportunity to build something that's not crap. This market needs it. Meanwhile I'm sorry to those of you who take offense at me calling a spade a spade.

It's such a pity that the end-user love affair with the best of the best so far, even when it's total CRAP, prevents us from looking forward and collaborating on ideas that might actually advance this industry. Consider this: There are plenty of Bluetooth-on-chip MCUs on the market. I believe there are also MCUs with peizo rate sensors onboard. I'm not sure whether there are MCUs with both bluetooth and peizo rate sensors, but my guess is there are. If you guys weren't so determined to defend your beloved KS16 and berate me for calling it 'crap', which it is, we might instead be spending our energy discussing ideas such as a helmet-mounted head gesture sensor (based on the aforementioned bluetooth/peizo MCU, assuming one exists) that allows the rider to send commands to the wheel via head nods, without having to interface with a smartphone. That discussion might even lead to the 'engineers' who design this stuff learning something from our discussion, and carrying our ideas forward into implementation. But no, instead we have to spend our energy having @xoltri accuse me of "not being an engineer". Whatever, dude, I give up!

Erik