gotway msuper3 1600wh

[esaj]

9 hours ago, litewave said:

 

Nice graphs - are they from http://www.learnengineering.org ?

Not sure, I just picked them up from Google image search to illustrate the point (there's more to motor power/efficiency than just voltage and current).

 

4 hours ago, OliverH said:

I can't follow your explanation. For my I understanding W = V x A

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt

If I use this I need less A if I higher the voltage. Where's my mistake?

P = U x I (power = voltage * current), which is basically the same as what you're saying, you just used units (watts = volts * amperes). But, you're not using the maximum voltage except when going fast (at steady speed) and during (fast) accelerations.With the same motor configuration (same motor impedance and inductance etc), at same speed/acceleration, the voltages would be the same and the motor impedance would be the same. Since I = U/Z (current = voltage / impedance, Z standing for impedance, a complex-number sum of reactance and resistance, with DC-calculations you use R, resistance), you still end up with the same current with same voltage and impedance.

Where the 84V version could have advantage (again if using the same motor) would be during acceleration, as it could use higher voltage from the battery direction towards motor, to get larger voltage difference between the "input voltage" and the motor-back EMF. This would cause HIGHER current (the U of I = U/Z would be larger value), and thus more torque (assuming the motor windings can take it), but again, the current would be actually higher than with the 67.2V version.

Hope that made sense now. That's why I suspect the motor is not wound similarly / use same configuration otherwise between the different voltage-versions.

Things that use the maximum voltage "all the time", like power transmission lines have the advantage of less current at higher voltages to achieve same power-figures vs. lower voltage transmission. 

 

1 hour ago, Keith said:

@OliverH, no mistake, looks like a slip of the keyboard by @esaj. A higher voltage does indeed mean the same power would require less current, thus a higher voltage can result in less heat loss and better efficiency. However, if the motor is not rewound for higher voltage then, in use, the higher voltage would permit higher current as well increasing the maximum power and heat losses, it would also permit higher RPM as the no load (I.e. Maximum RPM) would also increase. So power, torque and max speed would all increase but the current could become too high, I.e. Overheating more likely.

I probably explained what I meant really badly, I was just heading for bed when writing those posts. Hope the above cleared up any confusion. And also, I meant only from the "point of view" of the motor, the controller and power electronics there also of course play a role, as well as how the motor is being driven etc.

 

Quote

The biggest problem, assuming the electronics are designed to take it, in simply raising the voltage is that the maximum power and maximum efficiency curves also move to a higher RPM meaning that current at slower speeds and balancing will be likely be higher, generating more heat and reducing efficiency. I.e. The wheel would have to be driven faster to gain any benefit.

Really, a higher voltage needs also a rewind of the motor to lower the kV and optimise the setup.

Yes, I'd also suspect they're not using the same windings for the higher voltage versions, but instead of guessing, why not ask @Jane Mo or @Linnea Lin Gotway to check from the engineers, they should have first-hand knowledge?

[Ivar Dijkstra]

I agree 170km is not possible.

I can reach 45km on my mcm4 680wh but I think 45km is still nice with 85kg.

So I think I wil reach about 100km with the 1600wh v3 good enough to me.

[US69]

BTW: We are all assuming the wheel to have 84Volts = 20seriell batteries!

Also we think that 20S6p at 84 Volts is the configuration to get to about 1560wh(so 1600)...

But: I am really interested to see how they fit 20s6p  into the Msuper as there is vertical only place for 16seriell batteries...

Are they now going horizontal to fit the place?

[Donafello]

I'm so confused

[Jane Mo]

the same motor.

84v is faster and more powerful than 67.2v.

[Donafello]

2 minutes ago, Jane Mo said:

the same motor.

84v is faster and more powerful than 67.2v.

When you say more powerful can you be more specific on what we can expect. Obviously a higher top speed would a given but as far a torque can we expect more torque? Any details would be great for everyone on this forum

[US69]

32 minutes ago, Jane Mo said:

the same motor.

84v is faster and more powerful than 67.2v.

Thanx! Now we are much smarter!

[Greg Spalding]

34 minutes ago, Jane Mo said:

the same motor.

84v is faster and more powerful than 67.2v.

So, you are saying that the 84 V motor is a whole new product and not just a rewinding of the 67.2 V motor?

As always, thank you in advance and we appreciate you helping to enlighten us

[Donafello]

6 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

So, you are saying that the 84 V motor is a whole new product and not just a rewinding of the 67.2 V motor?

As always, thank you in advance and we appreciate you helping to enlighten us

I think she is saying its the same motor. To be honest I dont know what she is saying. lol

[Greg Spalding]

Just now, Donafello said:

I think she is saying its the same motor. To be honest I dont know what she is saying. lol

yes, i suppose no one is telling HER at the factory

that's critical to the decision making of so many of us

no one wants the same motor rewound for higher speed and even less torque..... no one needs that

especially ME at 85 kg.

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, Jane Mo said:

the same motor.

84v is faster and more powerful than 67.2v.

A real widow maker? More power I'm with you. More speed? I'm out, that's freak stuff.

[HEC]

1 hour ago, Jane Mo said:

the same motor.

84v is faster and more powerful than 67.2v.

If that's true than it's a "waste of money" to purchase or even make 84V models as it will be less effective at normal cruising speed and with already 8 cells less than 67.2V it will have decreased range. As already mentioned by many in this and other threads nobody wants wheel with speed of 70 Km/h with crappy torgque! Make it other way around. Lower speed to half and double the torque ...

[checho]

16 minutes ago, Greg Spalding said:

yes, i suppose no one is telling HER at the factory

that's critical to the decision making of so many of us

no one wants the same motor rewound for higher speed and even less torque..... no one needs that

especially ME at 85 kg.

No, that is not what she is saying.

She is saying it is the same motor. That means same winding just that the motor is capable of running at 84V.

The important question is it the same control board?

It is a HS motor, low torque, but by running at higher voltage you gain both power and speed. 

I would not run at 50 km/h it would be very dangerous, that is why a high torque version of the motor would be great.

[Donafello]

4 minutes ago, HEC said:

If that's true than it's a "waste of money" to purchase or even make 84V models as it will be less effective at normal cruising speed and with already 8 cells less than 67.2V it will have decreased range. As already mentioned by many in this and other threads nobody wants wheel with speed of 70 Km/h with crappy torgque! Make it other way around. Lower speed to half and double the torque ...

So why would they make them. There has to be something we dont know yet

[Greg Spalding]

4 minutes ago, HEC said:

If that's true than it's a "waste of money" to purchase or even make 84V models as it will be less effective at normal cruising speed and with already 8 cells less than 67.2V it will have decreased range. As already mentioned by many in this and other threads nobody wants wheel with speed of 70 Km/h with crappy torgque! Make it other way around. Lower speed to half and double the torque ...

absolutely CRAZY that no one will ever be able to ENLIGHTEN us about WHICH it really is until someone plunks down almost $2,000.00 to own one

like the pioneer days or something... LOL

 

1 minute ago, checho said:

No, that is not what she is saying.

She is saying it is the same motor. That means same winding just that the motor is capable of running at 84V.

The important question is it the same control board?

It is a HS motor, low torque, but by running at higher voltage you gain both power and speed. 

I would not run at 50 km/h it would be very dangerous, that is why a high torque version of the motor would be great.

i appreciate your thoughts

now...... how can we find out IF there is INCREASED TORQUE without buying one to find out there is NOT?

[Donafello]

Im just looking for a little more torque then my V2 HS and more range. if the 84v will do that for me I'm happy. Can anybody shed some light on this

[HEC]

3 minutes ago, Donafello said:

So why would they make them. There has to be something we dont know yet

Marketing. 84V "better" than 67.2V  And it's "faster" than already more than fast 67.2V as accordingly more dangerous and unsuitable for normal day to day use / commute. They should make a "City" version with HT / LS and then "Race" version with opposite settings.

[checho]

Just now, Donafello said:

So why would they make them. There has to be something we dont know yet

Most likely it is the same control board ( thats the part we do not know).

The same motor.

The battery packs aranged for 20s intead of 16s.

So the advantage is clear you gain both power, torque and speed without running into additional costs.

The only problem I see is that 50km/h is most likely the cutout speed and someone could get really hurt, but if the motor is rewing for torque this would be great, it would actualy increase safety.

[Donafello]

3 minutes ago, checho said:

Most likely it is the same control board ( thats the part we do not know).

The same motor.

The battery packs aranged for 20s intead of 16s.

So the advantage is clear you gain both power, torque and speed without running into additional costs.

The only problem I see is that 50km/h is most likely the cutout speed and someone could get really hurt, but if the motor is rewing for torque this would be great, it would actualy increase safety.

so if everything else remains the same then with the 84v we can expect more torque and speed from that unit? It's hard without getting offical word from factory because people have different takes on things

[Greg Spalding]

24 minutes ago, Donafello said:

so if everything else remains the same then with the 84v we can expect more torque and speed from that unit? It's hard without getting offical word from factory because people have different takes on things

that's the worst thing and on one wants to be the guinea pig to find out

spending this kind of money and finding out that the torque is down and the speed is way up??? then what will you do?

there will be, of course, no recourse

[Donafello]

Just now, Greg Spalding said:

that's the worst thing and on one wants to be the guinea pig to find out

spending this kind of money and finding out that the torque is down and the speed is way up??? then what will you do?

there will be, of course, no recourse

I know and thats what I'm worried about. I have the unit on order and it has not been shipped but I guess i could switch if I wanted. I just need more info on the exact differences of the 1600wh compared to the 1640wh. I'm currently waiting for the 1600wh. But it seems according to gotway you would not be able to buy a 1640wh from them anyway if you live overseas.

[Greg Spalding]

i feel like we are rushing west to find GOLD in the 1800s

more UNknown than known

makes it FUN.... if the prices were FAR LESS

[Donafello]

Just now, Greg Spalding said:

i feel like we are rushing west to find GOLD in the 1800s

more UNknown than known

makes it FUN.... if the prices were FAR LESS

In this day of age its disappointing that we have to deal with this. a simple clarification form gotway is all we need. They started this thread and I wish they were a little more clear on things

[Greg Spalding]

1 minute ago, Donafello said:

In this day of age its disappointing that we have to deal with this. a simple clarification form gotway is all we need. They started this thread and I wish they were a little more clear on things

AMEN to that

[Donafello]

If there is someone here that can give us some help on what differences we could expect if we have a 1600wh 84V with the same motor and control board as the 67.2v. would torque be less or more then the 67.2.  They said its the same motor and that its more powerful and faster so Im assuming more powerful means more torque. MY HEAD IS LITERALLY SPINNING because of this.