Self-balancing unicycles banned in Shanghai/Beijing

[glorat]

Looks like yet another country, this time my country of residence, has decided to legislate the use of EUCs. The most useful English article seems to be this one: http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0826/c90000-9106031.html

As far as I can tell, the concern is more about its use on the roads, which, frankly, on Shanghai roads is asking for trouble anyway. I suppose their use on pavements are de-facto banned anyway but then again, you frequently see motorised scooters and bikes on the pavements all the time.

What is perhaps a little interesting to me is the penalty. The fine ranges from 5 RMB to 50 RMB. According to one Chinese source, if you get caught using it on the road, it's a 25 RMB penalty (about $4) and if you are caught on the pavement, it is 5 RMB (about $1). Now I only use my EUC on wide and mostly empty pavements anyway so it seems that if 5 RMB is the worst I can be penalised, that seems a risk that is no worse than all the other scooters on the pavement...

Any other EUC riders in Shanghai/Beijing here? How do you react to the ban?

[Frode]

What is it with today's legislators? If cars,motorcycles or bicycles had been invented today, they would have been banned.

[EUCMania]

It is 50RMB in road, 25 on sidewalks.

Looks like all EUC makers will move their factory out of China. 

[JoyRide]

I can only add what was posted recently in another place: there is a new ban imposed in the center of Prague. Generally, it was meant for segways, the word used over here (Czech Rep) by almost everyone for those big bi-wheel transporters. Sadly, the law prohibits any "selfbalancing" transporter, i.e. also EUC. Which is stupid as there is only few of us in Prague having more than 1 mio inhabitans. The reason for ban was people were complaining that segways got out of control in the city centre and that they are dangerous for pedestrians. I must admit that you can see a lot of these machines in the city center, mostly used by tourists who lease them for seesighting rides. The ban is absolute, i.e. one cannot ride it at all. The fine is up to 2000 CZK which is some 75 EUR. Funny thing is that until signs are properely installed on the streets police will not fine you but just politely remind that you are generally an offender.

[mhpr262]

Damn. Politicians are too lazy to introduce proper legislation and waste all the huge potential of those machines. And electric skateboards and those stan-up electric mini-scooters are apparently still allowed??? Sheer idiocy.

[JoyRide]

There is even this funny campaign. If you are lucky, you may be handed a leaflet like this by one of policemen

[Bay Surfer]

Actually technically speaking EUCs are not self balancing, turn it on and let go guess what it falls over.  So technically its not self balancing, and yes I would show a cop that it does not self balance. 

[JoyRide]

Well, I was thinking about exactly what you say  I will see in coming days when the street signs are installed if the cops are going to bother me. First, they need to catch me, right?  Now, seriously, I hope they will be busy with segways and will pay little attention to others (there is also kids riding on these two-wheel boards but they ride really slow so no one cares).

[Michael Vu]

Are bicycles allowed in the same areas where EUCs are banned? If so then these laws are BS. It just shows the ignorance of politicians of not fully knowing new technology. You guys that live over there need to talk to your politicians and really make a case that an EUC is no different from a bicycle from a safety perceptive because that's what this entire thing is all about.

[glorat]

3 hours ago, Michael Vu said:

Are bicycles allowed in the same areas where EUCs are banned? If so then these laws are BS. It just shows the ignorance of politicians of not fully knowing new technology. You guys that live over there need to talk to your politicians and really make a case that an EUC is no different from a bicycle from a safety perceptive because that's what this entire thing is all about.

There's a case being made (in China) that part of the reason for a safety ban is that an EUC can't break as rapidly as other authorised vehicles, like a bicycle. Anyone know of evidence for/against this? The key test is the breaking distance whilst travelling at 20kmh... apparently result should be within 4m

[esaj]

5 minutes ago, glorat said:

There's a case being made (in China) that part of the reason for a safety ban is that an EUC can't break as rapidly as other authorised vehicles, like a bicycle. Anyone know of evidence for/against this? The key test is the breaking distance whilst travelling at 20kmh... apparently result should be within 4m

Never actually measured the distance, but I'd claim I am (or was, when the wheel was still working ) able to power-brake from above 20km/h to stop in less than 4 meters. It takes some practice to execute "properly" though.

EDIT: Couple of additions though; I'm lightweight, so that probably also affects the distance (ie. with my weight, I can pretty much "slam on the brakes" without fear of anything burning or being thrown off due to higher kinetic energy of the body, could be different for someone much heavier), as well as motor power/battery size (or amount of parallel packs), any head/tail wind etc.

Edited August 29, 2016 by esaj

[flass]

21 minutes ago, esaj said:

Never actually measured the distance, but I'd claim I am (or was, when the wheel was still working ) able to power-brake from above 20km/h to stop in less than 4 meters. It takes some practice to execute "properly" though.

In Sweden the law states that the equipment has to allow for a deceleration of 3 m/s^2. But that must be a technical requirement of the EUC and that it assumes the driver knows how to "execute it properly". There are similar requirements on mechanical bicycles but of course not all people are skilled enough to execute the braking properly even on a mechanical bicycle (however, I presume a lot less people would fail on that task....).

[Rehab1]

@glorat In the USA many 'rushed through the court' laws are knee jerk reactions to some tragic event that has occurred and quickly enacted purely for 'feel good' political reasons. Has anyone riding a EUC seriously injured or killed a pedestrian in your country?

 In my country that is all it would take to ban then nationwide.

[Michael Vu]

3 hours ago, glorat said:

There's a case being made (in China) that part of the reason for a safety ban is that an EUC can't break as rapidly as other authorised vehicles, like a bicycle. Anyone know of evidence for/against this? The key test is the breaking distance whilst travelling at 20kmh... apparently result should be within 4m

If this is the case, I'd like them to back it up with any evidence. Because right now it seems like they are just assuming a bike's caliper brake is better than an electric hub motor regenerative braking. If anything I would argue that regenerative braking is better than friction braking since you still run the risk of your wheels locking up with friction braking. Regenerative braking is inherently anti-lock brake.

[MarkoMarjamaa]

About the braking distance:

 

[Johey]

6 hours ago, flass said:

In Sweden the law states that the equipment has to allow for a deceleration of 3 m/s^2.

Do you have a valid reference for that? All I can find about it when googling is from various discussion boards. I'd like to see the law text defining it.

[Henrik Olsen]

More break test: 

 

[lizardmech]

The motor can brake well enough but the control boards and batteries have no way to deal with emergency stops in less than ideal conditions.

[Keith]

OK, this is apocryphal, but I have now on 3 occasions I have been coming around a corner to find a cyclist coming the other way. On all 3 occasions I have stopped faster than the cyclist. On each occasion the cyclist has been less than half my age so ought to have the faster reflexes as well. Being on a bend, braking has caused the cyclist to go straight on and, hence, miss me. But the shortest they have stopped is so that I'm level with their back wheel.

I am in two minds whether the instinctive tendency to recoil back when suddenly presented with danger means I am braking even before I think about it, or whether the cyclist, suddenly presented with something he/she has never seen before has a much extended thinking time while the danger computes? It is probably a bit of both, but it does emphasise that reaction time may be a big part of the equation. I would say that in each case both of us have had similar speeds and thankfully nobody has got upset at the incidents, indeed I had a 10 minute conversion and demonstration of my EUC with one cyclist who was fascinated by it!

Edited August 30, 2016 by Keith

[lizardmech]

@Keith

I think riding an EUC is so similar to walking you have fast reflexes by default. In comparison when on a bike or motorbike you have suppress your natural reflexes while trying to build and maintain new ones.

[OliverH]

5 hours ago, MarkoMarjamaa said:

About the braking distance:

 

And now with the maximum allowed weight. The Airwheel will give up, as most EUCs with less than 800 W. You can put it down to the floor to switch them off.

[Mono]

9 hours ago, Michael Vu said:

If this is the case, I'd like them to back it up with any evidence. Because right now it seems like they are just assuming a bike's caliper brake is better than an electric hub motor regenerative braking. If anything I would argue that regenerative braking is better than friction braking since you still run the risk of your wheels locking up with friction braking. Regenerative braking is inherently anti-lock brake.

I doubt that regenerative braking is enough to get 3m/s^2 deceleration. Looking at the voltage time data and considering wheel behavior, I (still) believe that my Gotway drains power during an emergency brake. It remains to be "inherently anti-lock" on a clean tarmac surface.

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

I doubt that regenerative braking is enough to get 3m/s^2 deceleration. Looking at the voltage time data and considering wheel behavior, I (still) believe that my Gotway drains power during an emergency brake. It remains to be "inherently anti-lock" on a clean tarmac surface.

You can reach this values on an EUC. We tried it. 2.7 m/s2 is the value in the current PLEV draft. This requirements are no brainers.

The test concepts in regulated countries (Switzerland/ Germany coming for EUCs) and also PLEV requires braking in combined accelerate, driving, braking (PLEV) which is good for a mechanical brake to cool down. For our EUCs it's stress for the mainboard and battery. The EUCs need to be refined/ improved regarding heat management (Mainboard/ Mosfet) and high loads on the batteries.

An other example: In Switzerland they like to see to go downhill with a fully charged battery - 8.9 km, average incline 6.7%, max incline 15% (overvoltage, handling/ wasting energy/ handling heat (MOSFET)/ motor). An other testcase is going uphill the same way with fully charged battery (overheating PCB/ MOSFETs/ handling heat). In the end all kind of this test cases should answer the question: Does it full fill the general requirements and behaves the vehicle in a safe manner to be used on public road without special risk for the rider or third party. That testcases are not science never been before. The manufacturers need to design their EUCs to meet this requirements and need to test it properly.

[flass]

7 hours ago, Johey said:

Do you have a valid reference for that? All I can find about it when googling is from various discussion boards. I'd like to see the law text defining it.

This starts to feel very off topic on an international forum, but, take a look at TSFS 2009:31 (consolidated version) (https://www.transportstyrelsen.se/TSFS/TSFS 2009_31k.pdf), chapter 3, §11. If you have further comments on this I guess it is more safe to switch to the Swedish thread in the regional sub-forum, or PM. 

[nomad]

As we know mechanical brakes will beat current EUCs technically, but when reaction time is included I think it evens out or the EUC will probably more often than not win as mentioned above. More over an EUC takes less space and has much better turn radius if the pedals have good ground clearance. Another thing is if the bike has pedal brake the reaction time should be significantly better, but unfortunately it only brakes on the rear wheel which results in a relatively long braking distance, are bicycles with only foot brake legal or are they banned too? If there is no foot brake the rider has to move their fingers to the brake before the braking can even begin, this takes time and conscious thought to do! In panic the mouscles cramp up and you want to grab the handles tighter, changing your hand grip in this moment is extra counter intuitive as you must let go of your grip and loose some control of your steering. Thinking fast and using evasive manouvers is very important too, not just braking in a straight line!

Also on an EUC it's easy to turn your upper body and head to fully check what's around you, awareness is key to avoid being in the wrong place at the wrong time. On a bicycle as your steering will be affected when twisting your body too many people on bicycles never check behind, they just turn spontaneously without warning, some hold their hand out, which is great and everybody should do that, but they always keep their field of vision locked forward so it's not fool proof. And never expect a cyclist to hold their hand out in every turn if you are behind and want to pass, they can do it properly on the first turn only to later make the next turn giving no sign! Also on a bike you are bent downward and if you look back over your shoulder a large part of your vision is blocked by said shoulder. On an EUC your eyes are high above ground so you can see over the roof of parked cars etc. like driving a truck, you have better overview, and others can more easily see you.

I still think a bicycle is generally safer than an EUC. A bicycle is just much easier and we all learned to ride that as kids. Now compare that to somone who just got their first EUC, what do you expect? I have over 1000 km on my wheel now and still don't feel as much in control as on a bike, but I'm getting there, so just be a little patient before banning please! We have to ride carefully and know our limits, set a good example, people are watching us! I hope there won't be any banning in Sweden!

Edited August 30, 2016 by nomad