Cloud Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Lol no, 1000w cant do 50kph. its amazing how much never ending confusion one careless post can produce. 1000w must be wrong! Original gotways plan was to provide 1200w. Id say what Linnea said should be more towards the reality. This being said, its gotta be either 1200 or 1500w. id be very surprised if 1640wh optiin was available for outside of china Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 10 hours ago, houseofjob said: Typical Gotway inflation stats *smh* I interpret this as 50kph is around the lift test cutout, which means a possibly safe buffer for 40kph real riding speed, which I think is more than enough for a lot of potential MSuper3 buyers on the forums here, including myself. I would love to see an uphill acceleration comparison for all the > 800W wheels out today (2016 KS-18A, ACM16, and soon the MSuper3) to see how the actual motor powers stack up real world. The lift test will only give you information of the cutout speed nothing else since at the point the wheel has no load and it does not mean the motor is not capable of a higher speed since it is beight cutout by the firmware on the control board. To find the real cutout sperd it would be needed to test the wheel under load and it would be the cutout speed only for that load under the conditions of the test, for such a test extreme safety gear eould be needed. A cutout speed which may be safe for a light rider could be very dangerous for a heavy rider. Since different riders have diferent weights a safe cutout speed is one that is significantly larger than the riding speed, the greater this difference the greater the margin of safety. Sadly due to marketing many times the advertized riding speed is the cutout speed as it can be seen on this board by the many faceplant in which the rider was going at the advrrtizrd speed or below. My adviced is to assume that the adverized speed is the cutout speed and provide your own margin of safety if the assumption was wrong you just ended up with a greater margin of safety than you needed, on the other hand is you asume the advertized speed is the safe speed and you are wrong you will end up with a face plant it is a lot better to be wrong on the satefy side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 17 minutes ago, checho said: The lift test will only give you information of the cutout speed nothing else since at the point the wheel has no load and it does not mean the motor is not capable of a higher speed since it is beight cutout by the firmware on the control board. To find the real cutout sperd it would be needed to test the wheel under load and it would be the cutout speed only for that load under the conditions of the test, for such a test extreme safety gear eould be needed. A cutout speed which may be safe for a light rider could be very dangerous for a heavy rider. Since different riders have diferent weights a safe cutout speed is one that is significantly larger than the riding speed, the greater this difference the greater the margin of safety. Sadly due to marketing many times the advertized riding speed is the cutout speed as it can be seen on this board by the many faceplant in which the rider was going at the advrrtizrd speed or below. My adviced is to assume that the adverized speed is the cutout speed and provide your own margin of safety if the assumption was wrong you just ended up with a greater margin of safety than you needed, on the other hand is you asume the advertized speed is the safe speed and you are wrong you will end up with a face plant it is a lot better to be wrong on the satefy side. Um, you're basically just repeating what I said... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 12 hours ago, Cloud said: Guys guys guys - we are getting very confused here and going in all different directions, there are several distinct things going on here - lets not mix them up, otherwise we will never get to the facts. 1) what is the correct spec per gotway Gotway has to first state their specs and they need to speak with one voice. Right now different gotway reps state different specs. They need to figure out what they want to communicate for motor power 1000w, 1200w, or 1500w 2) how the motor power is defined. we know that many manufacturers use loose or vague definitions of what the nominal and maximum power is. Gotway has been more or less consistent in how they present this. So once their testimony is established ( per item 1) this can be reconfirmed, but the assumption should be that when they communicate motor power, its nominal ( consistent with KS 800w, v5 500 w etc) 3) true speed or not. Yes many manufacturers overstate the max speed. Gotway is known for that. But lets put that aside for a moment. Lets assume the speed is correct ( in gotway's language) so we can make some comparisons. Dont bring this variable into the equasion yet - there is too many unknowns as is at his point 4h what is the maximum speed. When Gotway says max speed, we simply need to know if its the lift test no load cut out speed or maximum allowable speed before tilt back. there is no contradiction here. The max cut out speed could be 60 but when gotway communicates the speed of 50 or 48 - that must be the maximum allowable by used setting ( also forced tiltback speed). In this scenario it doesnt matter how heavy the rider is - the wheel will always limit the speed to 50 or 48 ( providing that the wheel can achiece this speed with this heavy rider) 5) safety margin. this is where the riders weight comes in. It does not ( normally) define the maximum speed. It only affects the safet margin. The maximum no load free spinning lift test will show the no load cut out speed. Depending on the riders weight the safety margin will change ( ratio of free loading cut out speed, or real life cut out at riders weight to the maximum allowable max speed) the max allowable max speed does not change depending on the riders weight ( providing that the motor has enough power to carry this heavy rider at this max speed) Regarding 1) As for now it looks like all vendors estimates the power. Or they may be calculate it from current reading of the motordriver. Even if you use the current reading (estimating it's correct) there're losses of the motor (up to 80-85% efficiency?). I only trust a measuring by ISO 60031-1. Or a measuring down on a dynometer showing the power/ torque curves. People like me getting annoyed by any mythic numbers being unrealistic or dangerous. If this high speed EUCs are sold in volumes to be recognised and if they're having accidents because of the speed with corresponding injuries or dead we're getting in a totally new situation in countries tolerating EUCs by today. Developing markets can change in destroying markets, where developing markets is an other definition as we know it. Developing markets means: Looking for potentials of sales and set it as a target, what sales numbers are realistic in which months (sales season), conducting exhibitions, evaluating distributors/ dealers, knowing which regions have which sales potential, having a marketing budget and actions to be prepared if sales numbers are behind forecast. The Chinese version is more simplyfied: How many can you sell, do you've a showroom. If sales numbers are not like estimated it's easier to ask the next the two important questions and not asking for the reason or comparing with sales figures of other brands and looking for reasons and solutions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 3 hours ago, houseofjob said: Um, you're basically just repeating what I said... No, the part where you say "I interpret this as 50kph is around the lift test cutout, which means a possibly safe buffer for 40kph real riding speed," since you base the safe buffer on the lift test cutout, and I base the safe buffer on the cutout under load which will depend on rider weight, and I say the lift test cutout is mostly irrelevant for safety because the cutout depends on the programming of the firmware not on the speed of the motor, other than that the motor can reach that speed without load which is not very usefull information for safety since we all have a weight greater then 0, a much more useful information would be to know the cutout speed under load. What maybe a completely safe speed for a 40kg rider could be an extremely dangerous speed for a 100kg rider since they have different cutout speeds and in both cases the cutout speed would be less than the lift test speed, the lift test would indicate the cutout speed for a rider of weight 0. We agree on mostly everything with one big difference the safety buffer is individual based on the cutout speed under load and not the lift test. The lift test is just an upper bound for the cutout speed under load but it can not be used since it is outside what can be considered a safe speed unless your weight is 0. If wheels had extremely powerfull motors and they had already desined safety in the firmware then the lift test speed would be similar to the cutout under load for a heavy rider, but assuming that is risking a faceplant it is much better to know the cutout speed under load and to ride below that speed, the problem we face is that we normally do not have that information and we have to assume the safe speed, it would be useful if vendors published the cutoff speed undet different loads. This forum is very useful in that regards that it gives us an idea of the cutoff speed under load usually by someone that had a faceplant helping other avoid that faceplant by giving information of their weight and speed at the time of cutout. For example the new gotway has advertized speed of 50 km/h and rider max weight of 100 or 120kg, I have a bad feeling if you have the max weigh and ride at max speed you will without a dought faceplant, to avoid such a faceplant it would be usefull to know the actual cutoff speed for a rider of max weight and not how fast it can go under optimal conditions. I personaly play it safe and ride a lot slower than what most wheels can handle, the knees are one of the most painful parts when faceplanting and it takes months for the pain to go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 14 hours ago, houseofjob said: @KingSong69 Yeah, I don't put much faith into all that until the actual stats are published. Plus, Urban360 Store preorder page in Paris is listing 34kph max speed; I have no clue what to believe... Looks like a text copy from MSuperV2, so currently place holders only. Is urban360 the new Gotway distributor in France? Up to now Vincent Bordeaux used the urban360 brand instead of Gotway or stated only by Gotway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 11 hours ago, Bjorn H said: SuperGotway @EUC Extreme Do you sell the special heat sinks for the original MSuperV2 also? A lot of hills around here and a heavy rider on top of my MSuper.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 18 hours ago, Cloud said: 1000w , 1200w or 1500w? Ive heard all 3 from different sources. Please confirm. Thanks 1000W SP1, 1200W SP2 and 1500W SP3? SP stands for ServicePack like we've seen it at the ACM. just kidding. But I'll interested if the MSuperV3 has the same configuration change cycles like the ACM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 10 hours ago, Cloud said: Lol no, 1000w cant do 50kph. its amazing how much never ending confusion one careless post can produce. 1000w must be wrong! Original gotways plan was to provide 1200w. Id say what Linnea said should be more towards the reality. This being said, its gotta be either 1200 or 1500w. id be very surprised if 1640wh optiin was available for outside of china why should the 1640wh version not be available outside china? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 38 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: why should the 1640wh version not be available outside china? Transportation issues? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egiljo Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 20 hours ago, Cloud said: 1 hour ago, OliverH said: Transportation issues? King song 18 with 1320 battery is available in my country, so I don't see this as a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 5 hours ago, checho said: No, the part where you say "I interpret this as 50kph is around the lift test cutout, which means a possibly safe buffer for 40kph real riding speed," since you base the safe buffer on the lift test cutout, and I base the safe buffer on the cutout under load which will depend on rider weight, and I say the lift test cutout is mostly irrelevant for safety because the cutout depends on the programming of the firmware not on the speed of the motor, other than that the motor can reach that speed without load which is not very usefull information for safety since we all have a weight greater then 0, a much more useful information would be to know the cutout speed under load. What maybe a completely safe speed for a 40kg rider could be an extremely dangerous speed for a 100kg rider since they have different cutout speeds and in both cases the cutout speed would be less than the lift test speed, the lift test would indicate the cutout speed for a rider of weight 0. We agree on mostly everything with one big difference the safety buffer is individual based on the cutout speed under load and not the lift test. The lift test is just an upper bound for the cutout speed under load but it can not be used since it is outside what can be considered a safe speed unless your weight is 0. If wheels had extremely powerfull motors and they had already desined safety in the firmware then the lift test speed would be similar to the cutout under load for a heavy rider, but assuming that is risking a faceplant it is much better to know the cutout speed under load and to ride below that speed, the problem we face is that we normally do not have that information and we have to assume the safe speed, it would be useful if vendors published the cutoff speed undet different loads. This forum is very useful in that regards that it gives us an idea of the cutoff speed under load usually by someone that had a faceplant helping other avoid that faceplant by giving information of their weight and speed at the time of cutout. For example the new gotway has advertized speed of 50 km/h and rider max weight of 100 or 120kg, I have a bad feeling if you have the max weigh and ride at max speed you will without a dought faceplant, to avoid such a faceplant it would be usefull to know the actual cutoff speed for a rider of max weight and not how fast it can go under optimal conditions. I personaly play it safe and ride a lot slower than what most wheels can handle, the knees are one of the most painful parts when faceplanting and it takes months for the pain to go away. Dude, what part of "interpret" and "possibly" in my original post you replied to do you not understand? It's rough estimating on a product that hasn't been released to the public. I was guesstimating because no one here on the forums knows the actual facts right now. I'm not saying this is how to permanently determine the safe top speed of the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Extreme Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 5 hours ago, OliverH said: @EUC Extreme Do you sell the special heat sinks for the original MSuperV2 also? A lot of hills around here and a heavy rider on top of my MSuper.. Yes, I can make you a better cooling of the original aluminum plate. Put me a message. I can do something like this. It will help to some extent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 9 hours ago, KingSong69 said: why should the 1640wh version not be available outside china? I am basing this on the fact that the original msuper was available with a large battery capacity, a battery bank added on top of the wheel which also served as a saddle to sit on. This was only available in china and used for long term trips to certain locations. For the outside marjet it was deemed not profitable to pro ide 9 hours ago, OliverH said: Transportation issues? Possibly transportation issues also, but mostly because of the market / cost reasons at the time 8 hours ago, egiljo said: King song 18 with 1320 battery is available in my country, so I don't see this as a problem? I am not saying its impossible, because anything is possible. But this was a very custom thing from gotway, only for their use in china. I am pretty sure this is what this option is - a custom battery pack on top of the wheel, inside a saddle to sit on. We will see if i am correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 I always learn new! dont know about this seat option :-) but i would bet this time they integrate the 2 extra packs..1 on each side in the hull...its just about a 2cm to add each side with this flat packs they use nowadays in the ACM and super3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 11 hours ago, OliverH said: Regarding 1) As for now it looks like all vendors estimates the power. Or they may be calculate it from current reading of the motordriver. Even if you use the current reading (estimating it's correct) there're losses of the motor (up to 80-85% efficiency?). I only trust a measuring by ISO 60031-1. Or a measuring down on a dynometer showing the power/ torque curves. People like me getting annoyed by any mythic numbers being unrealistic or dangerous. If this high speed EUCs are sold in volumes to be recognised and if they're having accidents because of the speed with corresponding injuries or dead we're getting in a totally new situation in countries tolerating EUCs by today. Developing markets can change in destroying markets, where developing markets is an other definition as we know it. Developing markets means: Looking for potentials of sales and set it as a target, what sales numbers are realistic in which months (sales season), conducting exhibitions, evaluating distributors/ dealers, knowing which regions have which sales potential, having a marketing budget and actions to be prepared if sales numbers are behind forecast. The Chinese version is more simplyfied: How many can you sell, do you've a showroom. If sales numbers are not like estimated it's easier to ask the next the two important questions and not asking for the reason or comparing with sales figures of other brands and looking for reasons and solutions. Yes it is important to clearly define what motor power communicated by the manufacturers is. Normally nominal power is the power at which the motor works most efficiently. But what is more important is not that its clearly defined, but that different manufacturers use the same equvalent parameters. This way it will be possible to compare between the wheels. 800w all by itself means nothing to the rider. What is important to the rider is that he can lean or accelerate in a certain way and the wheel will keep him in balance. And if that corresponds to 800w100w or whatever, then the rider can use this parameter to make comoarisons and conclusions. The problem is that sifferent manufacturers dont have a uniform standardized system when publishing these numbers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted July 30, 2016 Share Posted July 30, 2016 7 hours ago, Cloud said: I am basing this on the fact that the original msuper was available with a large battery capacity, a battery bank added on top of the wheel which also served as a saddle to sit on. This was only available in china and used for long term trips to certain locations. For the outside marjet it was deemed not profitable to pro ide Possibly transportation issues also, but mostly because of the market / cost reasons at the time I am not saying its impossible, because anything is possible. But this was a very custom thing from gotway, only for their use in china. I am pretty sure this is what this option is - a custom battery pack on top of the wheel, inside a saddle to sit on. We will see if i am correct. I heared some time ago that the Swiss dealer (wheelzworld) had ordered at least on of this monster MSupers with the additional battery on top. The big KS18 was supposed to China only in the beginning. My dealer was able to get one at this time. Nothing is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadrossi Posted July 31, 2016 Share Posted July 31, 2016 On 7/29/2016 at 4:26 PM, logos122 said: After watching this video, I think the 30 mph top speed might be true. He's moving. I agree this may be able to reach 30mph. This is moving extremely fast by the looking at the lines in the road and how fast they are coming at you, After a lot of riding you kinda develop an eye for it and in my humble opinion this is the fastest I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 So GotwayCN FB page moderated by @Linnea Lin Gotway is clearly advertising the 1640wH MSuper3 configuration in English, maybe it is in fact available for outside China? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 It bothers me that they cant get their story straight...i am waiting to hear from them if its available... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 9, 2016 Share Posted August 9, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Extreme Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I can say that the new V3 model really is clearly more effective than the old. Torque is incredibly much even at low speed. It is also significantly faster. However, the maximum speed yet unmeasured. Continue testing .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 1 hour ago, EUC Extreme said: I can say that the new V3 model really is clearly more effective than the old. Torque is incredibly much even at low speed. It is also significantly faster. However, the maximum speed yet unmeasured. Continue testing .. Great. Torque was the weak point in the msuper 2 HS. Super happy to hear it has been improved! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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