GotWay Msuper V3

[ErikT]

@Linnea Lin Gotway: Any update on whether/when high torque/lower speed versions of the V3 will be released?

ALL: I'm new here, seeking advice. Have only had my Airwheel X8 for a couple months but LOVE wheeling. Biggest frustration with airwheel is speed - I'm always beeping and riding at max speed which is only 12mph. Also I am 110KG, so the airwheel X8 has so-so acceleration and can barely take be up shallow inclines.

I was psyched to order a Msuper V3, but after reading comments here I'm getting cold feet. I would like to go faster than Airwheel speed, but do NOT plan to wear full body armor so no desire to go 45kph or anywhere close. 30+ would be plenty. But I really want reliable TORQUE to start uphill which I can't do on airwheel. After reading this thread I wonder if I should wait for a medium or high-torque version of the MsuperV3.

All advice welcome...

Thanks!

 

[Cloud]

@ErikT even though the first reviews of msuper3 will emerge in about a week from now, i am pretty sure you will see a dramatic difference in torque in relation to you airwheel going uphil on the msuper3. Even msuper2 high speed would do an ok job hauling you up and msuper3 is more powerful. Not sure which comment in the thread has discouraged you, the problem of msuper2 hs was more with the braking torque ( at least for me). In any case this will be a tremendous step up for you. And even if msuper3 fails to meet your expextations, there is many other wheels who can provide a positive experience, worlds apart from your airwheel experience.

[ErikT]

@Cloud Thanks, much appreciated.

Perhaps I should have worded my question differently: My only experience is with Airwheel X8. It doesn't have enough torque and doesn't go fast enough. But since I do NOT want to ride with FULL body armor (I could live with a bicycle-style helmet), I have no need to go 40+ kph.

Since I'm a newbie and don't know anything, I'm just searching online for EUC reviews and comparisons. From what little I know, the vast majority of models on the market only go Airwheel speed or a little faster. Even the very popular/sexy looking Ninebot E+ only goes a few kph faster than airwheel. I looked at IPS 121, but the reviews are conflicting. Some say it goes 30kph (fast enough for me), but others say only 22kph (NOT fast enough for me).

I REALLY like the luggage-style integrated telescoping handle idea. The only other wheel besides the MsuperV3 I've seen that has this integral (as opposed to clumsy-looking aftermarket bolt-on option) is the two-wheel one (Blackhawk or something?) that only goes Ninebot speed. I don't want to throw money away or anything, but I can afford the V3's price. In general, I want to buy ONE more wheel so I have a good one and don't have to think about upgrading again in a few more months.

Based on these criteria, what do you guys think is the best wheel on the market for me? That's my real question... I'd like a 30kph wheel, preferably with integral telescoping handle. Could go either way on the smartphone app. Definitely do NOT want the built-in music speakers or decorative flashing light arrays. High battery capacity is a big plus because I'm fat and consume battery energy quickly. These requirements led me to conclude the V3 was the best option, but I'm a newbie and don't know squat about the market compared to you guys.

Oh, to your comment, @Cloud, what "spooked" me was simply the comments about how the earlier version had both high-speed and high-torque versions, and that made me wonder if I should wait for the high-torque version of the V3. The reason I jumped to that concern is just that I definitely don't need the 45kph speed, and, well, I'm fat, so I figured the high-torque model that doesn't exist yet would much better meet my needs. 

Sounds like you're saying even the high speed model would have much more torque than the airwheel X8. Are you pretty sure of that? Keep in mind the X8 is not the X3; it's the "top of the Airwheel line", which I'm learning is approximately EUC equivalent to "the very best screw-top supermarket chardonnay that Gallo makes"...  But kidding aside, it's the bigger motor version of Airwheel, so as Airwheels go, it's their highest torque model so far as I understand.

Thanks again!

Erik

 

[Cloud]

@ErikT well, airwheel x8 is supposed to have 800w motor which is decent and all other things being equal would probably outperform (in some cases) msuper2 having 1000w motor due to the smaller wheel diameter ( the bigger the wheel radius, the less the torque). I didnt do comparative testing between the two but the fact that airwheel cones with a small battery doesnt insire confidence in its ability to sustain balanced riding going uo steep hills carrying 110kg. Battery needs to have a reserve so it can provide the juice to the motor power demand. i am 100kg and had no issue going up pretty steep hills continuously on msuoer 2 hs. Again, i coukd be wrong comparing the two, but if the issue is sustaining a climb up a hill, i think msuper should do a good job.

i am pretty sure that msuper 3 with a high capacity battery will  blow airwheel x8 out of the sky in this department

now, why are you looking at 18" wheels? Kingsong 16" also has an integrated trolley, as well as the Inmotion wheels. you might find 16" wheels more agile and something you are more used to than 18". Gotway ACM should tons of torque, but you have to attach an add on trolley, and this seems to be a deal breaker for you. 

Msuper may actually work well for you, for a different reason. It is my personal belief and experience that the riders weight affects the wheel condition trmendously. All kinds of bad things can happen when overloading the wheel. Perhaps being 110, you should stay away from the wheels whose weight limit is 100 or 120. Hopefully msuper3's 150kg weight limit will be better suited for you. Ks18 is also a possibility - high speed and range, and you might appreciate an ability to sit down. No integrated trolley but the wheel is almost tall ebough to roll without a trolley

choosing a wheel depends a lot on your oreferred riding style, the terrain, distance etc. distance doesnt seem to be a big parameter for you. If you dont care about suoerfast accelerations, i think Msuper3 will provide a good sustained torque well suited for your weight. Definitely gont go to smaller than 16 whel size - this woukd be a difficukt transition for you for commuting purposes, coming from a 16" wheel. 

Anyway, maybe if you tell a few more preferences, we can zoom in on the best wheel for you . things like: required range on a charge, pedal size/ foot size, average ride distance/ duration, terrain, riding style, preferred weight/ size of the wheel  etc

 

 

[ErikT]

@Cloud Thanks so much; this information is extremely helpful. I'll try to address all your questions below.

WHY 18": It's really not about feeling I need a bigger wheel. The Msuper goes fast and has a huge 820WH battery and integral trolley handle and a bunch of other cool features. It happens to be 18" and most people seem to be saying bigger wheel = more versatile on rough terrain. To me the only apparent DOWNSIDE to the 18" wheels is weight. But there's no huge draw for me from bigger diameter. The other features I want happen to be offered on an 18" product. Or perhaps I should say, I am not aware of the 16" products that also offer them. One criticism of 18" wheels I've read is that the whole chasis is taller and "more clunky". That sounds like an advantage to me... the top of my Airwheel X8 digs into the lower 1/3 of my calves, and has no padding. A taller model with a padded side would probably put the pad on the center of my calves, and that sounds better. Though I never tried it. BTW I'm assuming that raised grey area on the sides of the Msuper3 is a foam pad, which seems like a real good idea.

RIDING STYLE/AGILITY: This is a tough question for me. When I read that the 18" wheels are "less agile", I start to think "Oh, well, that's a downside then.,.." But then I look at the videos and realize the guys saying that stuff are doing jumps and tricks with their smaller wheels. I'm 50 yrs old and don't EVER envision myself doing stunts or jumping off of stuff. I do evnision riding on pedestrian-rich sidewalks where being able to easily maneuver to avoid running into someone is important. So what does "agile" really mean, and do I need it? I'm leaning toward not but it's hard for me to gauge what's really at stake here. I do want to be able to relax and enjoy the ride without getting tired. If the 18" wheels require more work from my legs to maneuver, to the extent of leading to fatigue, that would be a serious downside consideration.

INTEGRAL TROLLEY HANDLE: It's probably not the MUST-have I was making it sound like. Here's how I see it: The Airwheel X8 is as heavy as I want to CARRY a wheel by its handle. If I'm moving up to a faster and higher battery capacity wheel, that means more weight, and I don't want to carry it. The handle seems to solve the problem - walk it like a dog on a leash! Though I've never used such a handle and can only guess the utility from looking at photos. The add-on handle for Airwheel attaches with tie-wraps and looks kludgey as hell. An add-on trolley that screws onto the chassis and looks a little less like a hack would be fine.

RANGE: The *advertised* range of my Airwheel would be more than adequate - I think it's 30km or something. But that's fantasy-land stuff. My experience is that in practice, because I'm heavy and go top speed a lot (for airwheel anyway), the endurance is about an hour. I call it quits when it gets to 1 LED, because I've read they cut off completely and without warning and you can faceplant badly if the battery goes dead. Longer would be better. But I don't commute miles and miles to work or anything. I drive to the park with the wheel in the trunk of the car and then ride it around the park until it says only 1 LED of charge remaining, then I go home. I'd like the ride time to be closer to two hours than 1. I'm just getting to the point where I'm comfortable enough maneuvering and not running into people that I can use it on crowded city sidewalks, and I look forward to using it to cruise around town a little more.

PEDAL SIZE: I *think* I want bigger pedals, but frankly I'm not even sure why the soles of my feet tend to cramp up on Airwheel. Is it because the pedals are too small, or just because I'm still a newbie and haven't learned to fully "relax into it" yet? Beats me, but my feet do cramp up on AIrwheel pedals. If there are downsides to larger pedals, I don't even know what they are. My feet are U.S. size 11, European size is 45 if I remember right, not sure.

I'm not familiar with the Kingsong line you mentioned. Will go check that out. Unless you say otherwise, I shall assume your references to "Ks16" and KS18" were shorthand for Kingsong 16" and 18" wheels respectively?

Thanks again!

Erik

 

[ErikT]

UPDATE: Checked out the Kingsong line. KS16 looks like a much higher-quality version of my Airwheel X8. Love the trolley handle design and general feel of it. But same 800W motor as my X8 makes me wonder... Even though speed isn't governed to 12mph, no reason to think this will be any better than the X8 in terms of uphill torque.

Really loved the KS18, particularly the much higher padded areas designed to control it with mid-upper calves rather than just above my ankles on Airwheel. But no trolley handle on this model and no obvious way to attach one because of the seat, and it's not tall enough to walk around without crouching over. Still has 800W motor.

After looking at these, Msuper3 still looks like a better choice, but since I have no desire to go 45kph, I still wonder if I'd be better waiting for a high torque/lower speed variant. Sounds like they're planning one (?)...

Erik

 

[Cloud]

49 minutes ago, ErikT said:

UPDATE: Checked out the Kingsong line. KS16 looks like a much higher-quality version of my Airwheel X8. Love the trolley handle design and general feel of it. But same 800W motor as my X8 makes me wonder... Even though speed isn't governed to 12mph, no reason to think this will be any better than the X8 in terms of uphill torque.

Really loved the KS18, particularly the much higher padded areas designed to control it with mid-upper calves rather than just above my ankles on Airwheel. But no trolley handle on this model and no obvious way to attach one because of the seat, and it's not tall enough to walk around without crouching over. Still has 800W motor.

After looking at these, Msuper3 still looks like a better choice, but since I have no desire to go 45kph, I still wonder if I'd be better waiting for a high torque/lower speed variant. Sounds like they're planning one (?)...

Erik

1. Going around the pedestrians might be easier on a 16" but 18 " is possible too.

2. For whatever reason your feet hurt, going to larger pedals will help. The only downside of larger pedals is if they are so large they start scratching on pavement at tighter turns etc.

3. With a heavier wheel you will need more muscle effort to turn, but you can get used to it. KS18 has a slightly differnt technique for turning as it is higher and you can use your knees/ thigs for turning rather than calves.

4 ks 16 is 800, but feel pretty powerful. High capacity battery will help with sustained torque. It would be good if you had a way of trying it before you buy

5.  Latest models of ks18 are 1200w motor and can go to 40kph. Seat can be removed. A diy handle can be adapted to make it a little taller to roll.

6. Msuper3 is still a good option. Gotway may issue high torque version in the future but there is no telling how long it will take. And quite frankly i dont think they believe they need the high torque version since the motor power has increased on the high speed version

7 i dont recommend inmotion for you, it may not be big enough to handle your needs, maybe more reviews of the v8 model will prove otherwise.

[houseofjob]

33 minutes ago, ErikT said:

 

Really loved the KS18, ...... Still has 800W motor.

 

The latest KS18A is 1200W with 1360WH battery. An improved version is coming out mid-October as reported by distributor extraordinaire / KingSong guru @Jason McNeil of eWheels.com in this post here.

2 hours ago, ErikT said:

But I really want reliable TORQUE to start uphill which I can't do on airwheel. After reading this thread I wonder if I should wait for a medium or high-torque version of the MsuperV3.

Like @Cloud is saying, the 1500W alone of the MSuper3 will probably be a stark difference from your current 800W motor, for the better.

But also, why not just order direct from Gotway and ask them to tune the wheel for max torque? Stefan E mentions in the comments on the below post from the Gotway FB forum that he ordered his MSuper3 custom tuned for max hard response (he also mentions the superior torque for inclines on the MSuper3 compared to the MSuper2 in the same FB comments below):

https://www.facebook.com/stefan.eekenulv/videos/10207034242360410/

[The Fat Unicyclist]

I have been told that Gotway aren't doing High Torque and High Speed models anymore (just the HS). But I don't think it will make too much difference anyway.

It seems that I am similar to you @ErikT - On the positive side of 40, living in a mountainous area, solid of stature and progressing quickly beyond my first wheel (also an X8)... Based on availability at the time and local support available I upgraded to an IPS191 Lhotz (1000W - 340Wh).

I think that we will always want more than we have, but based mainly on this upgrade, I can make the following comments that may assist your decision making;

• A more powerful motor makes a big difference, but just as important (for fat unicyclists) is the battery capacity. Stepping up to 340Wh made a huge difference for me, but I can still push my wheel to the point that it can't pull enough power from the battery. So big boys need big batteries.

• Extra speed is good (and you get used to it surprisingly quickly). I now have a 30kph top speed, which is more than enough for me too. But it is great knowing that it is there even though I may never use it - the fact that I am not riding at the edge of my wheels limit is very comforting. Knowing it has extra power available to compensate for unexpected conditions is very relaxing

• Even though I haven't had my Lhotz long, I am still considering an MSuper V3 - partly because of the additional comfort and range, and partly for the 18" wheel. Even though I am getting old, I still love a good off-road blast, which is great on my Lhotz - and even though it is a 16" wheel (with 2.5" tyre) the agility it has makes it a great choice. But for a daily commute an 18" wheel would help with the curbing we have here, though it won't be as agile as the 16".

 

[Keith]

This thread starts with a statement that the X8 has an 800W motor and, therefore any other wheel, such as the KingSong,with an 800W motor will be no improvement.

That statement does not meet close examination at all. 

I would really doubt that the X8 really is an 800W continuous motor (so peak ought to be 1500W or more) but let's not go into that.

Instead, let's look at the 170Wh battery - to get that size battery requires a single set of 16 off 2.9Ah cells with a nominal voltage of 59.6V. Assuming those are really good quality cells they will peak at an absolute maximum current of 10 Amps 10 amps X 59.6V is 596 Watts and that is the absolute maximum possible on an Airwheel with a 170Wh battery. In practice I'm being REALLY generous, at 10 Amps those cells will drop to no more than 3.3V under load if fully charged that is 16x3.3x10 = 528W. The would have to be the highest quality cells in as new condition and fully charged, the battery could not maintain that power for more than 10 minutes, even if the motor could.

take, instead a wheel with a 680Wh battery. That has the same 16 off 2.9Ah batteries but this time has 4 of them in parallel, even allowing for the voltage under a 10Amp per cell load to drop to 3.3V that gives a maximum of 528W x 4 = 2112W. 

Bottom line something like the KingSong or Gotway with a 680Wh battery can maintain 800W and give peaks likely to be 4 times the power of the airwheel X 8, certainly, even if limited to 1500W, that is still 3 times the power of the X8

You have to look beyond the published specs guys, especially where Airwheel is concerned. Oh and by the way if you get an hour out of a 170Wh battery then, by definition,that means the average power is only 170 watts, which is why it is so slow.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Keith said:

...

I would really doubt that the X8 really is an 800W continuous motor (so peak ought to be 1500W or more) but let's not go into that.

Instead, let's look at the 170Wh battery - to get that size battery requires a single set of 16 off 2.9Ah cells with a nominal voltage of 59.6V. Assuming those are really good quality cells they will peak at an absolute maximum current of 10 Amps 10 amps X 59.6V is 596 Watts and that is the absolute maximum possible on an Airwheel with a 170Wh battery. In practice I'm being REALLY generous, at 10 Amps those cells will drop to no more than 3.3V under load if fully charged that is 16x3.3x10 = 528W. The would have to be the highest quality cells in as new condition and fully charged, the battery could not maintain that power for more than 10 minutes, even if the motor could.

...

Just because it just read this other post now http://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/5097-piggyback-ride-faceplant/?do=findComment&comment=57351. Here is a diagramm with the power & Voltage measured by @Jason McNeil. It was an X3 instead of an X8, but the only difference is the wheel size? (14 vs 16?)

According to this graph a single cell is able to deliver ~18A for a very short time and the voltage goes down to ~3,3V. The power is immediately reduced to ~750W by the mainboard/firmware. So a 500W continous power motor should handle this easily, if not a 350W motor would be more than enough for these wheels...

1 hour ago, Keith said:

...take, instead a wheel with a 680Wh battery. That has the same 16 off 2.9Ah batteries but this time has 4 of them in parallel, even allowing for the voltage under a 10Amp per cell load to drop to 3.3V that gives a maximum of 528W x 4 = 2112W. 

With FW 1.21 for KS16 the output power was limited to 2,2kW - and there were already noticeable effects with starting the wheel in rough terrain/making harder accelerations. So they put the limit up again with FW 1.22 ?to the ~2.9kw they used before? (Numbers from a forum member as reported by the wheel - so no "real" measurement as Jason did it in the graph...) Don't know at which level and how Gotway's firmware limits the power...

Seems that the 4 cells in parallel packs/configurations are direly needed for the actual wheels !

 

[ErikT]

Wow, thanks for all the extremely helpful advice, everyone. It seems there's a wonderfully supportive and helpful community here, so I'm delighted to have found this site!

Based on latest comments/explanations, I see now why I should not rule out a KS16 upgrade from Airwheel. It looks like a far better-engineered product, I like the aesthetics, and with the above explanations of advertised vs. practical motor torque, I now see why it would be a profound upgrade from my X8.

But that said, overall my feeling is mostly "Why not just hold out for the MsuperV3? It seems like the latest/greatest/coolest thing on the market, and I can afford it, so why not hold out for the best?". After contemplating that last statement rather carefully myself for the last few minutes, I see two potential caveats, but I don't know how to gauge how big a deal they are:

1. I'd be moving from 16" to 18" not because of some innate or justified-by-cause reason to do so, but rather just because that's what's on offer in the MsuperV3, and it feels to me intuitively like the "less agility" thing won't be a big deal because I'm an old guy who doesn't care about stunts and jumps and all that. I'm also admittedly blowing off the "It's bigger and heavier and more work to ride" issue without any personal experience to base my dismissal of that objection.
    
2. Gotway appears to be a much smaller company and the V3 is bleeding edge and will probably have something wrong with the first few units shipped requiring firmware updates, etc. I tend to dismiss the "support issue" in general because I'm in Mexico where none of these companies (except Airwheel) appear to have any distributor network or support capability. I thus conclude that I'm "On my own no matter what I buy", so I tend to place less priority on established brands, parts and support networks, etc.

As someone said in one of the comments, best option would be try before I buy, but I don't know where/how to do that. Nobody has ever heard of these things here in Mexico. I have a trip to San Francisco coming up in October. I'd wait till then to try out a few demo models of 16" and 18" wheels if I thought there was a retail outlet there that offered such an opportunity, but I'm not aware of any.

Thanks again everyone for all the generous advice!!! I welcome further feedback, particularly on my reluctant conclusion that the only option I have to find out whether I like 16" or 18" better is to just take a chance and buy an 18" wheel and pay the exorbitant shipping and import duties needed to get it to Mexico. I'll also be traveling to Hong Kong in November, but was unable to find any major retail outlet there. They have guys from Shenzen who will sell you a wheel and bring it to HK, but they don't offer demo rides.

Erik

 

[ErikT]

12 hours ago, houseofjob said:

But also, why not just order direct from Gotway and ask them to tune the wheel for max torque? Stefan E mentions in the comments on the below post from the Gotway FB forum that he ordered his MSuper3 custom tuned for max hard response

Is that really possible? I can see how they could easily tune for max hard response - that's a firmware parameter thing. But I would think that "tuning for max torque" would involve increasing the number of windings in the motor, something I wouldn't expect to be possible except in an alternate version of the product.

Also, from other comments it sounds like my concern that the high-speed model wouldn't have enough torque was probably mispaced. Coming from Airwheel X8 with an 800W motor and a battery insufficient to meaningfully run it at 800W, it sounds like the Msuper3 is going to be in a whole new category of performance - both speed and torque. I don't really need the speed, but it looks like it can easily be governed thru the Smartfone app. (Of course I'm not really going to do that and will probably get addicted to speed once I have the option, but that sounded good just the same... )

Erik

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, ErikT said:

Is that really possible? I can see how they could easily tune for max hard response - that's a firmware parameter thing. But I would think that "tuning for max torque" would involve increasing the number of windings in the motor, something I wouldn't expect to be possible except in an alternate version of the product.

Also, from other comments it sounds like my concern that the high-speed model wouldn't have enough torque was probably mispaced. Coming from Airwheel X8 with an 800W motor and a battery insufficient to meaningfully run it at 800W, it sounds like the Msuper3 is going to be in a whole new category of performance - both speed and torque. I don't really need the speed, but it looks like it can easily be governed thru the Smartfone app. (Of course I'm not really going to do that and will probably get addicted to speed once I have the option, but that sounded good just the same... )

Erik

@ErikT From my experience, I had to switch out different firmware boards on my KingSong KS-18A due to an initial bluetooth issue, and I definitely felt an increased torque tuning on my replacement boards, especially noticeable when going uphill (for reference, I had been riding 4-5 months daily on my original firmware board). 

I can't speak in particular to the MSuper series (currently waiting on the 1640WH model myself), but I highly doubt a later High Torque version would be anything more than some firmware'd tuning (doesn't make business sense to change the existing wheel unless there are mechanical issues). Maybe some of the MSuper2 HS/LS riders can speak better to this....

 

Also, the AirWheel X8 is now basically 2 generations behind current EUC tech; AirWheel doesn't even get mentioned among today's commonly recommended EUCs.

I'm saying this because, back in the early EUC days, companies like Inventist/SoloWheel and IPS listed their wheels with just "Motor Power", which really means the Max (Momentary) Power the wheel can achieve, as EUCs were relatively weaker back then. 

With the advent of more powerful, "3rd generation" EUCs like Ninebot, and especially Gotway and KingSong, the motors were starting to be listed as Nominal / Average Power, not max (max is sometimes listed alongside average).

Some older companies, however (like IPS & Inventist/SoloWheel), continue to list the vague "Motor Power" stat, causing much confusion amongst consumers, especially brand new buyers.

That said, I cannot find an AirWheel X8 product page that lists the 800W as "Nominal" or "Average" Power, they all just say "motor power", which leads me to believe your X8 is really around 250 to 400W nominal power (an estimated 2-3 times nominal power).

This would mean the 1500W (nominal) MSuper3 would be 3-6 times as much torque as your current wheel, which is why many, including me, are telling you that your torque issue is probably a non-issue. I have yet to hear anyone riding a recent 800W or above wheel complain about inferior torque going uphill

[ErikT]

@houseofjob, yes, in case I was not clear previously, I'm now 100% sold on the idea that my torque concerns were misplaced.

The only remaining hesitation is that some people here seem to be suggesting I should stick with a 16" model, and upgrade from Airwheel to KS16 or the new 1500W Gotway 16" model (ACR?) rather than Msuper3.

I think my conclusion is to just take a chance on the Msuper3. Seems like everyone here agrees that torque will not be an issue. It goes way faster than I need, but so what? It looks way past cool. Only downside is the "maneuverability" issue of moving up to an 18" wheel. Since my biggest complaint about Airwheel is that the top of the chasis is down at the BOTTOMS of my calves, this sounds like a blessing in disguise to me. Total weight is a serious consideration, but the trolley handle looks sturdy and should solve the problem of having to carry it around.

I wasn't aware till now that apparently nobody actually has a V3 in hand yet. They show as available and shipping on eBay, but I guess that must be brand new. Since I'm not in any great hurry, I think I'll wait a week or two before ordering, and see if any user reviews show up here that might change my thinking.

Thanks again for all the feedback, guys! This site rocks. I wish I'd found it before wasting big $ on a pair of X8's for my girlfriend and me. Live and learn, I guess...

Erik

 

[Cloud]

@ErikT, i agree with your conclusions, and probably either ks16 or msuper3 would be a good upgrade for you. Yes there is a chance that being a new product msuper3 will have some bugs - i suggest you wait a couple of weeks, the reviews are already starting to emerge. And i dont think msuper can just be tuned for high torque thru firmware, but like you said, the torque shouldnt be an issue in the new HS version. If you decide to pull the trigger on ks16 instead, that would be a big step up also.

[houseofjob]

43 minutes ago, ErikT said:

@houseofjob, yes, in case I was not clear previously, I'm now 100% sold on the idea that my torque concerns were misplaced.

The only remaining hesitation is that some people here seem to be suggesting I should stick with a 16" model, and upgrade from Airwheel to KS16 or the new 1500W Gotway model (ACR?) rather than Msuper3.

I think my conclusion is to just take a chance on the Msuper3. Seems like everyone here agrees that torque will not be an issue. It goes way faster than I need, but so what. I looks way past cool. Only downside is the "maneuverability" issue of moving up to an 18" wheel. Since my biggest complaint about Airwheel is that the top of the thing is down at the BOTTOMS of my calves, this sounds like a blessing in disguise.

I wasn't aware till now that apparently nobody actually has a V3 in hand yet. They show as available and shipping on eBay, but since I'm not in any great hurry I think I'll wait a week or two before ordering, and see if any user reviews show up here that might change my thinking.

Thanks again for all the feedback, guys! This site rocks. I wish I'd found it before wasting big $ on a pair of X8's for my girlfriend and me. Live and learn, I guess...

Erik

 

ACM, not ACR ; ) And yes, the MSuper3 just came out, barely a month old now; the MSuper series model in particular has a pretty solid EUC enthusiast following, as it was a landmark EUC in terms of max performance (speed/power/battery/range) and max pedal comfort (still the largest in the market, esp relevant if you are a big-footer)

You really can't go wrong, 16" or 18", Gotway or KingSong (the 2 performance spec'd EUC companies); the "maneuverability" is really subjective, and in the end, the rider will always adjust.

The only main issue I would really concern myself with if I were you is possible overheating issues, as you are towards the top end in terms of rider weight. Currently, the KingSong KS-16B has implemented an onboard fan to combat this, while the Gotway ACM 16 now implements a v2 board with 12 MOSFETS (previously 6) + heatsink to combat this issue. In the 18" realm, the jury is still out on the new MSuper3, while KingSong is prepping a new revision to their 1200W KS-18A (planned release October) with better cooling, better everything in fact, related in @Jason McNeil's post here. 

As North America, esp US, has no brick + mortar EUC stores like a France or Asia, why not hit up some riders on the forum, like in the SF Bay area for your October trip, and ask them if you can try out their wheels (perfect hills for torque testing!)? (we do it here a bit in and around the NYC EUC group ride community).

@NevNutz (his site link and FB) I believe distributes Gotway there, and while not local, @Jason McNeil of eWheels.com out of Miami, FL is one of the premier KingSong distributors globally and could probably point you to some of his Bay area KingSong customers. Also, SF Bay area seems to have semi-regular group rides like this one and this one, and have a FB page as well. (many YouTube vids of these rides as well through search)

[Cloud]

The review of the msuper3 by the first russian rider (90kg) yesterday indicated no overheating issues and temperature not rising about 55 or so during bis 40km ride including hills and accelerations. However there isnt enough statistics yet to rule out the possibility of overheating

[Tilmann]

Hi @ErikT, welcome to the club! Coming in at 75kg/60years my own riding experience with Msuper V1 (Middle Speed/680Wh) may be of little help for you. I do have a friend around 100kg with a Msuper V2 (MS/820WH) who loves it and never mentioned any shortage of torque - so you should definitely be fine with an Msuper3 hauling you around (considering the extra +500 Watt it comes with).

New product risk: Yes, I couldn't resist upgrading to Msuper3, too, and I consider myself pretty unreasonable buying a GotWay product from the first manufacturing batch (its still in shipment). As @houseofjob mentioned, GotWays latest product release, the ACM 16, had a rather troubled first production series. Another friend of mine (65kg) got the first ACM imported to Germany, enjoyed it thoroughly for one day, then gave it to a bit heavier friend (93kg) for a test ride and that meant immediate death to his control board. GotWay quickly came up with the improved 12 MOSFET ACM V2 board, we got an excellent repair shop in Germany, so his ACM was fixed with the improved board in about 4 weeks. Msuper3 should benefit from the more robust 12 MOSFET design, too, but the customer base in possession of the new beast is still very thin. Stefan Eekenulv (Sweden) has one for a couple of weeks now and he does not appear to be a midget either ("Real Vikings eWheel" - hugh, hugh, hugh ). Not sure, whether he's on this board, but you easily find him here https://www.facebook.com/stefan.eekenulv and here http://euc-ridessweden.blogspot.de/. Given the absence of any repair shops in your neck of the woods, ordering a Msuper3 before a couple of months feedback from a variety of users comes in, carries a real risk of frustration.

Does size matter (aka 16" vs. 18")?: From the way you describe yourself, I picture your riding preferences may not be all that different from mine: 90% is relaxed cruising. I started with a ninebot One E and couldn't imagine ever breaking the 20km/h sound barrier, but pretty soon found myself constantly fighting tiltback with my toes pointing skyward. Trading the bot for the Msuper doubled the fun of riding for me. Speed wise, I feel much more relaxed going 28 km/h on the Msuper (can't disable the beeping at that speed with Msuper V1) than I felt squeezing 21.5 out of the ninebot and still feel like an annoying obstacle on the bike path. And the change from the 16" bot to the 18" Msuper added much to the comfort as it rides much more stable, so I can enjoy the surroundings without risking, that the smallest pebble stone or tiniest tree branch on the road will get me into serious trouble. "Lack of agility"? Yepp, when friends set up a slalom exercise with plastic cones just a meter apart, I have to make more of an effort than using a smaller wheel. And going really slooooow, like half the normal pedestrian pace, I have to work a bit harder to stay right side up. But then, >90% of the time I don't do that and riding for a couple of hours straight neither feels like an athletic workout nor a concentrate-or-faceplant exercise. My feet are a bit smaller than yours (US10 / EU43) and feel very comfy on the large Msuper pedals for hours while screaming in protest after 15 minutes on those sorry excuses for a footrest that the xima Lhotz comes with. Yes, I also have a GotWay Mten (the other extreme of the scale with a 10" wheel) and love it. I mainly bought it, 'cause I do want to learn turning on a dime and riding backwards eventually. So far, that remained largely wishful thinking, but it's the very best toy for riding in the office . I did try the KS16 and the GotWay ACM16 as well. Both are fine wheels and on a scale of 1 (most agile, Mten) to 10 (most stable, Msuper), I would see them both around 8. I can't explain why, but the ninebot One to me feels like a 5 despite being a 16" wheel, too. Unfortunately, I never had a chance to try an airwheel X8.

Best of luck with your choice & happy riding!

[Jason McNeil]

4 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I'm saying this because, back in the early EUC days, companies like Inventist/SoloWheel and IPS listed their wheels with just "Motor Power", which really means the Max (Momentary) Power the wheel can achieve, as EUCs were relatively weaker back then. 

Back in the 'old' days of 2014-2015, IPS/AW/SW would rate their systems (Watts) as whatever the battery packs were rated for max power. Like Keith & Houseofjob said, this was an absurd number that couldn't be sustained for anything more than a couple secs. 

[ErikT]

Viel Danke, @Tilmann. Very helpful insights.

Based on everyone's feedback here, my mind is made up: I PLAN to order an Msuper3, but will WAIT until a few more reviews come out and it's clearer whether the ACM's infant growing pains will be repeated with the MsuperV3. I'm in no great hurry and getting replacement parts to Mexico is a real pain in the tail, so I'm happy to wait for the 2nd production run. Will stay tuned here to see how the early adopters fare.

>  Unfortunately, I never had a chance to try an airwheel X8.

Care to trade?  Seriously, tho, from the vids I've seen of other wheels, I don't think you're missing much. It's several kph SLOWER than the Ninebot you started with, and at my weight you have to start on the flat or downhill. It will go uphill fine with a running start, but you can't start that way - not enough torque. I don't think you're missing anything.

Erik

 

 

[Cloud]

@Tilmann can you tell us more about KS16 vs ACM? Beyond the obvious differences in features. More on riding comfort, agility, acceleration/ braking experience, control of the wheel?

You rated them bith at 8, thats great. Still, which one would be your favorite and why? Thanks

[Cloud]

@ErikT you may want to ask @Johey about his KS16 experience. It appears he just upgraded from the X8

 

[Tilmann]

10 minutes ago, Cloud said:

@Tilmann can you tell us more about KS16 vs ACM? Beyond the obvious differences in features. More on riding comfort, agility, acceleration/ braking experience, control of the wheel?

You rated them bith at 8, thats great. Still, which one would be your favorite and why? Thanks

Love to, but that would be very pretentious. I may have been some 10km on each one, both were borrowed from friends and I sure didn't wan't to be the first one leaving scars on them. Also, I admit to being somewhat a "GotWay fanboy". Coming from the Msuper, I immediately felt save on both KS16 and ACM. I expected the loss of "stability feeling" compared to Msuper much more dramatic, than it actually was (hence the "8" in stability rating). By a thin margin, my preference in terms of riding comfort (pedals, chin cushions), controllability and perceived availability of power goes to the ACM. Yet, that cheap looking drill-some-holes-in-the-shell after market trolly "solution" for the ACM puts me off - KingSong solved that part beautifully! Fairy lights and built in speakers don't count for me personally. If I would have to choose between just these two, my choice would be the ACM for its power advantage and slight edge in riding comfort. I would not buy the ugly trolley handle just because I'm stubborn and would curse GotWay every time I had to carry that thing without one. 

Thank goodness, I have more choices - so Msuper3 it is .

[ErikT]

"Fairly Lights"... ROTFLMAO!