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Inmotion V8 - your thoughts and Impressions ... Now with extensive review included


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26 minutes ago, Noillek said:

Went to do my groceries yesterday as always did with the V5F, and decided to pass a bicycle in front of me by doing a hard acceleration from 15km/h, 58% Battery level and 24C temperature... the wheel accelerate but didn't even tilt-back drooped flat out in the ground immediately, sliding on the road similar like a motorbike crash, luckily I fell face down but on top of the groceries bag and besides a small burn on my hand and allot of scratches on a brand new V8 nothing major happen.

I remember that i did similar accelerations over and over again with my V5F even with less battery or after longer time riding and never had anything similar, do you guys have any explanation of what might have happen?

Wow.  Glad you didn't get any major injuries.  That is scary to hear.  I think this is the first time I've heard something like that happening to an Inmotion euc.  One of the main reasons I bought my V8 last week was because of the (perceived) reliability and lack of any reports of motor shut down while riding.  Now I am no longer confident about this. :( 

PS.  What is your weight?

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In the Inmotion App there has been several incidents with V8 that i didn't pay much attention as i thought they might be new to EUC, i did ride very aggressively with my V5F and always went well, manage to get all the time reliable performance.

Due to this last incident i will definitely explore the limits of this model more careful.

My weight is 74kg... i do have some theories of what might happen with bigger wheel models.

1) higher means that the shutdown angles might be the same as the smaller wheels, just the perception of the rider is less due to the ground clearance, leading the rider to push harder.

2) bigger wheel diameter requires more power (not only on the motor, as this will be left to torque, but battery power) to react or compensate closer to limit angles than a smaller diameter wheel.

If those 2 points above make sense for the more technical people... what we need to be aware and the brands need to advise consumers that the bigger the wheel the more progressive should be the handling.

Still i don't plan to change as i wanted a more comfortable and stable wheel to cover longer distances... but get the doubt if the V5F+ wouldn't be a better option. Can anyone make a nice review from both?

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@Noillek glad you are OK. I obviously missed other incidents with V8 in the app because your post really caught my eye this morning. This certainly sounds troubling. 
Any chance that you somehow went through max. speed when accelerating, without feeling tilt-back due to additional weight you were carrying?
I have V5F+ and despite heavy torture (served as a learning wheel for 3 people - 900km now), so far it performs flawlessly in all situations, including daily commuting.
 

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1 hour ago, xebeche said:

@Noillek glad you are OK. I obviously missed other incidents with V8 in the app because your post really caught my eye this morning. This certainly sounds troubling. 
Any chance that you somehow went through max. speed when accelerating, without feeling tilt-back due to additional weight you were carrying?
I have V5F+ and despite heavy torture (served as a learning wheel for 3 people - 900km now), so far it performs flawlessly in all situations, including daily commuting.
 

Hi Xebeche, i do think that the V5F and later on even better the V5F+ was great wheel... it had the time to evolve and develop along the different versions.

Keep yours even if you decide to get a V8, i think it might still need to evolve... but definitely is allot more comfortable and stable than the V5F... the extra speed is also very welcome i get everywhere faster (would be better even if they remove the tilt-back from 25km/h so we can really feel comfortable at 30km/h.

My groceries bag was 1,5kg approx. i dont think that would have a big difference unless it did kind of pendulum and then can had a few extra kilos forward and with the height more torque on the engine that could handle. I will keep trying to find the limits, but this time i will use my motocross gear and will do it on the woods, easier to crash.

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3 minutes ago, Noillek said:

Keep yours even if you decide to get a V8, i think it might still need to evolve... but definitely is allot more comfortable and stable than the V5F... the extra speed is also very welcome i get everywhere faster (would be better even if they remove the tilt-back from 25km/h so we can really feel comfortable at 30km/h.

I plan to get second wheel in the spring, 16 or even 18 inch for exactly same reason as you did - more comfort on long distances, but it seems that all popular larger wheels (Inmotion V8 - battery/range, no back/break lights and now potential cut-off without warning, Kingsong KS16 - QC problems and unexpected cut-off, Gotway Msuper V3 - QC problems, no mudguard, very heavy, cut-off at lower speeds than specified) have their own shortfalls. Looking at V5, it seemed like the V8 had the real potential to be great all around wheel, but somehow I have the feeling that they rushed it and skimped on few important design decisions.

9 minutes ago, Noillek said:

My groceries bag was 1,5kg approx. i dont think that would have a big difference unless it did kind of pendulum and then can had a few extra kilos forward and with the height more torque on the engine that could handle. I will keep trying to find the limits, but this time i will use my motocross gear and will do it on the woods, easier to crash.

1.5kg is nothing, I doubt this could have any influence. I thought you maybe had like 10kg+ heavy bags. Please report your findings about V8 limits and stay safe. 

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1 hour ago, Noillek said:

would be better even if they remove the tilt-back from 25km/h so we can really feel comfortable at 30km/h.

You can change the tilt-back to 30 km/h yourself with their app.

EDIT: Unless you're saying it tilts back at 25 even when set to 30 in the app (default setting was 25).  I haven't had a chance to go fast on it yet.

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4 hours ago, Noillek said:

My weight is 74kg...

74 kg is relatively light (especially by European standards).  I don't think it should have happened if you accelerated from 15 km/h.  Do you have an estimate on what speed you were going when the motor cut?  Was it close to 30 km/h?  @Jason McNeil do you think he got a defective unit or a bad firmware version?

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1 hour ago, John Eucist said:

You can change the tilt-back to 30 km/h yourself with their app.

EDIT: Unless you're saying it tilts back at 25 even when set to 30 in the app (default setting was 25).  I haven't had a chance to go fast on it yet.

I have mine setup to 30km/h on the app... although from 25km/h onwards starts to tiltback slightly until 30km/h... the only way that i manage to go more comfortable close to the 30km/h is by compensating with pedal angle setup at -6 degrees... this way i manage to go comfortably close to the speed limit, battery drain is pretty fast at this speed.

1 hour ago, John Eucist said:

74 kg is relatively light (especially by European standards).  I don't think it should have happened if you accelerated from 15 km/h.  Do you have an estimate on what speed you were going when the motor cut?  Was it close to 30 km/h?  @Jason McNeil do you think he got a defective unit or a bad firmware version?

In my V5F i did similar accelerations all the time and never had an issue, but this one is more sensitive, also another thing that i notice is that the pedal feels stiffer when leaning forward or backward compared with the V5F, that was more reactive... again this might be to give that stability and comfort. I believe that in 1 second i manage to put the wheel at max speed or even over, as i slide on the road for several meters, and the wheel went forward double of my distance.

If you want check in youtube for (Noillek) for a few videos that i did with my V5F off-road and it was always pushing hard... never had major issues, with the V8 i will explore slowly.

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4 minutes ago, Noillek said:

If you want check in youtube for (Noillek) for a few videos that i did with my V5F off-road and it was always pushing hard... never had major issues, with the V8 i will explore slowly.

Nice video.  I'm posting your video here so others can enjoy.  Watch out @EUC Extreme :D 

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3 hours ago, John Eucist said:

@Jason McNeil do you think he got a defective unit or a bad firmware version?

@Noillek Yeah, something's definitely not right, especially in light of your experience of the V5F! V8 is/should-be the V5F on steroids, everything is uprated—control-board can pump out a lot more power (~3.5KW peak) than the V5Fs, battery pack contains the more powerful MH1 cells & of course the motor is a significant upgrade. What version FW are you using?

I've just clocked over 1000km on mine, so far it's never missed a heartbeat.  

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8 hours ago, Noillek said:

[..and decided to pass a bicycle in front of me by doing a hard acceleration..]

Grrrrr..... why is no one mentioning this to the newbies?

Hard Acceleration / Hard Braking is otherwise known as Overlean (you shouldn't be doing it)!!!

This applies to all EUCs regardless. (just look up almost any make/model on this forum and you'll find an uneducated new rider claiming supposed phantom cutouts, which ultimately turn out to be from accelerating too hard). 

You can make any EUC cutout by suddenly overleaning hard enough, this is a protection manufacturers implement to prevent sudden current spikes from damaging / burning your motor.

 

Yes, you might be getting away with a harder acceleration on the lower nominal power 550W InMotion V5F variants, but you also do not have the same amount of current surge potential (thus lower top speed) in those lesser wattage wheels (ex. SoloWheel / SW Extreme riders also rave about being able to do hard accelerations as well, but these wheels are even less power, less top speed). 

 

Higher Power = Higher Current = Higher Ease of being able to Overlean cutout.

 

The only concern here IMO is why there was no overpower warning sound.

 

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6 hours ago, houseofjob said:

The only concern here IMO is why there was no overpower warning sound.

I think it is possible to accelerate through the tiltback so fast that even if there was a warning the wheel would already have cut out.  Maybe the firmware should compensate for the rate of acceleration and start tiltback sooner the faster a person accelerates so not to exceed the motor cutout speed.  So if you speed up slowly the tiltback would start at top speed but if you speed up very quickly the tiltback should start at a lower speed, giving more time to react.

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9 hours ago, houseofjob said:

supposed phantom cutouts, which ultimately turn out to be from accelerating too hard

I try to always accelerate gently. Once in a while, usually to avoid a car or some similar situation, I react spontaneously with a hard acceleration. So far I have been very thankful because my IPS wheels have always handled this successfully. But afterwards I am upset at myself for forgetting "in the heat of the moment" and possibly risking a cutout.

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9 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

@Noillek Yeah, something's definitely not right, especially in light of your experience of the V5F! V8 is/should-be the V5F on steroids, everything is uprated—control-board can pump out a lot more power (~3.5KW peak) than the V5Fs, battery pack contains the more powerful MH1 cells & of course the motor is a significant upgrade. What version FW are you using?

I've just clocked over 1000km on mine, so far it's never missed a heartbeat.  

1000km on the V8 ????????????
Wow !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Gotta save my 'pennies' !!!!!!!!!!!)

 

 

Allen

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2 hours ago, steve454 said:

I think it is possible to accelerate through the tiltback so fast that even if there was a warning the wheel would already have cut out.  Maybe the firmware should compensate for the rate of acceleration and start tiltback sooner the faster a person accelerates so not to exceed the motor cutout speed.  So if you speed up slowly the tiltback would start at top speed but if you speed up very quickly the tiltback should start at a lower speed, giving more time to react.

Or could they write the firmware so that it would be more of a 'curve' during the acceleration; more acceleration at first and then less the longer the acceleration lasts?
(I'm probably basically saying the same thing.)

Just a thought.

 

 

Allen

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It's pretty tricky to determine what is the maximum acceleration a wheel can handle.  Leaning quickly forwards applying a lot of tilting force to the pedals will need to be countered by enough increase in driving force to keep the rider in balance.  Judging by what we see in some complicated current/voltage graphs, there might be different amounts of acceleration available to be had at different speeds.  Take for example, a stand still versus a rolling start.  I don't think you can or should try to apply the maximum acceleration that your wheel can provide at a standstill at higher speeds and expect the same safe response as it cannot accelerate as fast at that point.  It may try, but it also might trigger an overload situation where it cannot draw enough current to speed up fast enough to catch your lean.

I think I used an Usain Bolt example pushing a trolley with a rider standing on it before.  Off the starting mark, he's got lots of oomph to get you going from 0 to 15 kph to catch you leaning forwards.  While cruising at 15 kph, the same amount of quick acceleration might not be possible as he is expending some energy already maintaining that 15 kph already.   Or imagine in your car from 0 to 60 kph.  You can get going pretty darn quick in some cars, but flooring the pedal from 60 to 100 kph is a different story.  I just don't think these electric motors can provide linear acceleration throughout the speed range as much as one would like.  It likely tapers off as they get up to the middle of their range I'm guessing.  I find that it's like a dance - you want to move smoothly without too many sudden moves that might upset your partner which in this case is the wheel.  It might not be able to catch up!

If a rider is demanding maximum acceleration up to the maximum safety speed and through it, the wheel would have to outmax the acceleration somehow to provide tiltback which likely just isn't possible.  If Usain is running as fast as he can already to catch your lean, how can he run even faster so you lean backwards?

That's it!  You made me do it.  Ima posting a graph!

image.jpg

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21 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

It's pretty tricky to determine what is the maximum acceleration a wheel can handle.  Leaning quickly forwards applying a lot of tilting force to the pedals will need to be countered by enough increase in driving force to keep the rider in balance.  Judging by what we see in some complicated current/voltage graphs, there might be different amounts of acceleration available to be had at different speeds.  Take for example, a stand still versus a rolling start.  I don't think you can or should try to apply the maximum acceleration that your wheel can provide at a standstill at higher speeds and expect the same safe response as it cannot accelerate as fast at that point.  It may try, but it also might trigger an overload situation where it cannot draw enough current to speed up fast enough to catch your lean.

I think I used a Hussain Bolt example pushing a trolley with a rider standing on it before.  Off the starting mark, he's got lots of oomph to get you going from 0 to 15 kph to catch you leaning forwards.  While cruising at 15 kph, the same amount of quick acceleration might not be possible as he is expending some energy already maintaining that 15 kph already.   Or imagine in your car from 0 to 60 kph.  You can get going pretty darn quick in some cars, but flooring the pedal from 60 to 100 kph is a different story.  I just don't think these electric motors can provide linear acceleration throughout the speed range as much as one would like.  It likely tapers off as they get up to the middle of their range I'm guessing.  I find that it's like a dance - you want to move smoothly without too many sudden moves that might upset your partner which in this case is the wheel.  It might not be able to catch up!

If a rider is demanding maximum acceleration up to the maximum safety speed and through it, the wheel would have to outmax the acceleration somehow to provide tiltback which likely just isn't possible.  If Hussain is running as fast as he can already to catch your lean, how can he run even faster so you lean backwards?

That's it!  You made me do it.  Ima posting a graph!

image.jpg

Gotta love this example !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Allen

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3 hours ago, abinder3 said:Or could they write the firmware so that it would be more of a 'curve' during the acceleration; more acceleration at first and then less the longer the acceleration lasts?
(I'm probably basically saying the same thing.)

Just a thought.

Again, a reminder about the basic physics here: 

  • when you lean forward the wheel has to exactly counteract that lean
  • it does that by applying torque equal and opposite to the force the rider applies.
  • acceleration is a direct byproduct of that torque.
  • it isn't controllable by the firmware. It has to match the force the rider applies. 

 We have not ascertained what actually happened in this instance, and it must always be remembered that the maximum torque available isn't by any means infinite and reduces as speed increases. I.e.there will always be some situations where it is possible for the rider to apply more force than the wheel can counter.

However, tilting back earlier under higher acceleration is certainly one possible solution, it might not be easily implemented as there would be a danger of the wheel starting to sway unpleasantly I.e. Tilt back early, rider eases off, tilt removed, acceleration increases, tilt back on again. Great care would be needed to ensure it couldn't loop into a rider induced oscillation.

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11 hours ago, Keith said:

Again, a reminder about the basic physics here: 

  • when you lean forward the wheel has to exactly counteract that lean
  • it does that by applying torque equal and opposite to the force the rider applies.
  • acceleration is a direct byproduct of that torque.
  • it isn't controllable by the firmware. It has to match the force the rider applies. 

 We have not ascertained what actually happened in this instance, and it must always be remembered that the maximum torque available isn't by any means infinite and reduces as speed increases. I.e.there will always be some situations where it is possible for the rider to apply more force than the wheel can counter.

However, tilting back earlier under higher acceleration is certainly one possible solution, it might not be easily implemented as there would be a danger of the wheel starting to sway unpleasantly I.e. Tilt back early, rider eases off, tilt removed, acceleration increases, tilt back on again. Great care would be needed to ensure it couldn't loop into a rider induced oscillation.

I understand what you are saying, but don't you think that they could 'tell' the wheel in the firmware the maximum torque to apply for a given situation ?  If it has any accelerometers in it, there should be a way to limit the amount of feedback the wheel gets from them (unless it wasn't designed to interact with them).

(We use accelerometers in multiple things at my work and they're used for that sole purpose; to control something using feedback from them.)

 

 

Allen

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11 hours ago, Keith said:

However, tilting back earlier under higher acceleration is certainly one possible solution, it might not be easily implemented as there would be a danger of the wheel starting to sway unpleasantly I.e. Tilt back early, rider eases off, tilt removed, acceleration increases, tilt back on again. Great care would be needed to ensure it couldn't loop into a rider induced oscillation.


Isn't that true independently of when the tilt back sets in? I indeed have been experiencing this kind of oscillation. It is easy to escape by just slowing down, so I am not sure it would ever be a real problem.

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2 hours ago, abinder3 said:

I understand what you are saying, but don't you think that they could 'tell' the wheel in the firmware the maximum torque to apply for a given situation ?  If it has any accelerometers in it, there should be a way to limit the amount of feedback the wheel gets from them (unless it wasn't designed to interact with them).

(We use accelerometers in multiple things at my work and they're used for that sole purpose; to control something using feedback from them.)

 

 

Allen

No, sorry, seams there is a small lack of understanding self balance units..

the wheel only does only one thing...it always trys to hold the pedals in horizontal!

when you push forward...i mean lean forward...you give pressure on the pedals in front!

that makes the wheel turn forward, and so the pedals do not dip in front direction...because of the wheel moving forward...

If you lean in very strong...the wheel HAS TO accelerate very strong....if it would not do that: you would fall over in front!

 

This is what is meant with: the force you give in, the wheel always has to give back by accelerate...

But there a borders, for example their is only a certain kind of motor or batterie power!

 

Thats also the reason why EUCs do not have a "max kmh" where they do Not accelerate anymore....because when you lean in on lets say the "aanounced max kmh" the wheel HAS TO react....otherwise you would fall over to the front...

 

thats exactly why all wheels go higher and higher with their speed...until there is no more batterie power to go higher and a cut off comes! The wheel can only tell you by beep, tiltbacking a bit, vibrations, speaking or so...that you are near finish...but it can not slow down from itself or "just stay at a certain kmh" ...because reaction to your forces is a must....

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