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Brands with / without unexpected shutdowns (new buyers look here)


KaleOsaurusRex

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Major update to main post at the beginning of the thread. At your leisure, smart people please rip it to shreds for honesty, completeteness, clarity, etc!

Great! Reads much better now :)

With regard to Solowheel: from my communication with Inventist, they said that the Solowheel Xtreme (and I think also later classic models) have a custom BMS that doesn't shut down the battery but instead sends a signal to the mainboard; at that time the wheel pedals starts vibrating or tilt-back to slow you down. To me this seems the safest possible design. I had this vibration at various times -- like after a long climb at high speed; and when the battery was almost gone etc.

Anyway, I think we can deem the Solowheel Xtreme as "safe".

Btw. where can I find info about the safety of the King Song ?  Do they have a similar mechanism with a custom BMS?

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Just to add to the NB1 issue, it only happens on a completely full battery.  If you've ridden 100-200 meters or so before going downhill it's unlikely to be an issue unless it's a very very long hill. Also not an issue on very short hills even while starting.

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  • 3 weeks later...

I agree the wheel shouldn't intentionally cutoff by design.  It should only cutoff by catastrophic failure of some kind - like power short circuit (water?), electric motor failure, something like that.  If you imagine riding at a pretty good clip if there is any failure at all then the wheel cannot stay under you but you will keep on moving - and this is the definition of a faceplant.  I've fallen a couple of times and injured, sprained wrist, broken phone screen.

I thought about this a long time ago and thought of two unimplementable solutions.

1) you could affix an extra wheel like one of the training wheels in front of the unicycle mounted low in front but not touching the ground.  My idea was that as you lean forward more and more perhaps aggressively you could prevent a forward fall if there is a 2nd wheel there in front to catch you.  The wheel normally should never tip that far forward but if it does then this wheel will touch the ground.  It may not prevent a crash but it could prevent that faceplant where suddenly the wheel falls behind and you're left free by yourself flying in the air.  With this two wheel design it doesn't look like the normal unicyle anymore but a big wheel and a little wheel in front - it could be designed to work that way, a new device.  But remember it still cannot be entirely safe as even a bicycle can faceplant you, you can tumble headfirst and the bike tumbles over and above you (a harrowing event).

The other unimplementable solution:
2) battery backup - my thought is if there is any battery failure and power is cut off from the motor there is nothing that can save you.  The only thing holding you up is the electric motor staying underneath you - and the self-balancing unicycle is driven by leaning forward which is like riding a skateboard "hanging ten" which is all ten toes so far forward they're hanging off the board.

The idea is with any main battery failure the small backup battery kicks in and its entire job is to slow down the unicyle and roll it back so that the pedals are unrideable.  If power is in the backup system meaning the main system is down then the unicycle should be in tilt back mode.  Even if this backup system & power is only good for 5 minutes it's more than enough to prevent a faceplant and then to start tipping back the pedals.  Even 1 minute of power would do it.

On the list of wheel manufacturers, if it wasn't mentioned before, PUKKA does the unrideable tilt-back when the power is very low.  It tips back so far that it grounds itself - there is a rubber tip in back that is part of the chassis/handle and it will hit the ground because the wheel is tipped so far back.

Also the Airwheel X6 when battery is so low the pedals will tip so far back it's totally unrideable.

 

After faceplanting a couple of times, this was almost a year ago, I don't ride as fast any more.  That is to say I don't ride at the limit of the wheel.  In theory if you want to ride faster you'd get a faster wheel but still not ride it at its limit.

My riding style that I implemented is I ride with the pedals horizontally at all times.  I don't tip the pedals forward when riding fast or accelerating.  The self-balancing wheel doesn't work that way anyway, it just needs your center of gravity to be forward past the center of the wheel and it will accelerate forward.  When intentionally riding like this then you should feel if the wheel is tipping forward unnaturally and you can back off.  This doesn't guarantee a no-crash but it's something that you can do yourself and not just relying on the wheel.  I think I have video of me doing this.

One more thought - there are a couple of reasons why you want to be able to turn on the wheel even at very low power.  The main reason is to get home (or get to the car).  Many wheels are awkward and heavy to carry around even a short distance.  What I want to do, I imagine this, is if the battery is down so far that's in no longer rideable, then I can pull out the trolley (telescoping handle) and turn on the power and walk it like this instead of riding it.  I imagine it should still go for miles if there is no rider and it's just balancing itself.  Possibly if you push it a little it may even regen (or walk it downhill you can imagine it should regenerate).  This would be way better than carrying it. back

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We all should see whether we could get better information from our manufacturers on this issue. I tried this in the IPS case, I asked them:
"In this thread there is a good explanation of the issue that I am talking about.
What you can see there is that the author argues the technology used by IPS and certain others are different in two aspects.
And you can see there is that none of the mentioned manufacturers had confirmed that so far."
So far I got only a more or less unfriendly response. I will try again.

I wonder whether the one or the other of you could do something alike.

Less Dangerous:
IPS - Problem #2 has been documented in the forums.
WHERE is that to be found in our forum?

 

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New here so sorry if this is a dumb question. 

Lets say I am riding home on a wheel without the BMS, and its running out of battery, but I am really close to home, and the last part is uphill so I really don't want to walk it. This is pretty much what happened to me this weekend on my BMS wheel. I got the forced slowdown, and turned the wheel back on and treked up the hill. I might have got one more shut down. Turned it back on, as the rest of the way was slightly down grade and I could regen. 

Has anyone tried to balance on the wheel when it is not powered on? I tried this when I first got it, and it went horribly wrong. Is this the desired behavior of "safe" wheels, that they will have no BMS, but if you choose to push the limit, at a certain moment, the machine will just die. (Not lock up as it does in BMS behavior, but simply stop balancing itself forward and back, with the wheel still flowing freely. Or perhaps you are riding downhill and the battery dies, how would the wheel be able to stop?

Clearly I am missing something about "safe" wheel behavior because that can't be the alternative. Do you just go until the 5 percent  warning (ideally the 10% warning you should stop, if you wanted to be even more cautious) and then no longer push it due to not wanting the thing to topple over?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer this. 

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New here so sorry if this is a dumb question. 

Lets say I am riding home on a wheel without the BMS, and its running out of battery, but I am really close to home, and the last part is uphill so I really don't want to walk it. This is pretty much what happened to me this weekend on my BMS wheel. I got the forced slowdown, and turned the wheel back on and treked up the hill. I might have got one more shut down. Turned it back on, as the rest of the way was slightly down grade and I could regen. 

Has anyone tried to balance on the wheel when it is not powered on? I tried this when I first got it, and it went horribly wrong. Is this the desired behavior of "safe" wheels, that they will have no BMS, but if you choose to push the limit, at a certain moment, the machine will just die. (Not lock up as it does in BMS behavior, but simply stop balancing itself forward and back, with the wheel still flowing freely. Or perhaps you are riding downhill and the battery dies, how would the wheel be able to stop?

Clearly I am missing something about "safe" wheel behavior because that can't be the alternative. Do you just go until the 5 percent  warning (ideally the 10% warning you should stop, if you wanted to be even more cautious) and then no longer push it due to not wanting the thing to topple over?

 

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer this. 

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your post 100% - but when the wheel shuts off due to BMS shutdown, the wheel will freely spin (it won't lock up). So basically the behavior is just like the wheel is turned off suddenly, so it is impossible to balance.

If you have shunted the BMS and the power gets critically low, I think it will continue to run slower (and balance is getting worse) until there is no power left? Also I think the battery will be damaged.

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When my battery is low it starts to beep at me, and tilts me back, gradually slowing down to a stop. Is this not the BMS behavior? I guess I misunderstood it. 

No, that's done by the mainboard firmware. The BMS protections will only cut power immediately when they trigger.

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Hi guys, you can add my brand to the safe-list with the model Speedy B14 :)

It is only sold in Norway, but there may be customers looking here. The wheel has matched motor and mainboard to the BMS. Empty battery tilt-back is tilting so much backward you are immediately aware, along with flashing battery lights. You can even ride uphill for a long time with the empty battery warning. I have not been able to shut it down once, and I have done some serious testing.

 

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  One more to Add to the not safe list.  It is a 16" bluetooth/NB1 clone. Funny thing is I would not say it is unsafe.  It has high speed tilt back. Two warnings one beep you are going fast, and a voice that says you are speeding slow down.  The trouble I see is:  1. it does shut down after the speeding warning.  2. As in two seconds!!!  No time to react.  So keep it slower (AKA not past fast) and this is a fun wheel.   The name on the manual  calls it "Free Walker"   It has been a good wheel to learn on.  It was a great price to try out the "electric Unicycle thing"  I believe it has given me a true look into what this new sport is about.  I'll be keeping it as a trainer.  Time to start saving my money for for a safe 18" :wub:

http://victec.en.alibaba.com/product/60320823190-802144914/16_inch_smart_unicycle_self_balancing_electric_scooter_with_bluetooth_wth_led.html

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On 6/28/2015, 12:56:07, KaleOsaurusRex said:

So, anyone know other brands with confirmed electrical characteristics that are definitely safe / unsafe with regards to unexpected shutdowns?

My son has scars on his knees due to unicycle sudden shut down whilst he was traveling at reasonable speed. When we got to his help, I notice the switch was still on "ON" mode but the unicycle was completely out. when I attempted to plug it for charge, the LED shows 100% fully charged?? This cannot be right. We contacted the manufacturer "Gyroor" and they are refusing to address the issue, even though the unit is well within the 6 months warranty - please remember the company name "Gyroor" this will prevent frustrated customers in the future with regards to faulty unicycles and two wheel scooters.

 

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On 02.10.2015, 3:27:17, LosCal said:

Or perhaps you are riding downhill and the battery dies, how would the wheel be able to stop?

Thanks for taking the time to read and answer this. 

 

Most likely battery wouldn't die while going down.. I am not sure 100%, but as far as I know, on the most of wheels, when you going downhill battery gets some charging.

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I see above that "all models" of Airwheel display the dangerous cut-off. Does this include the Airwheel x8  ?

'Speedy' says his 'Speedy B14' is a safe unit only sold in Norway; is it manufactured in Norway?  

Why is it not exported with such good specs?!

We would love to have it in Australia!

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  • 1 month later...

About the problem of the BMS shutdown, the battery adopted to Airwheel electric scooters is 18650 battery, an original Sony import battery. The BMS is all encapsulated by SONY factory. We all know that such kind of battery is in high quality and trustworthy, while Ninebot is equipped with the LG battery.

It's really funny, you even don't kown that?!:wacko:

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23 minutes ago, Jie Janet said:

About the problem of the BMS shutdown, the battery adopted to Airwheel electric scooters is 18650 battery, an original Sony import battery. The BMS is all encapsulated by SONY factory. We all know that such kind of battery is in high quality and trustworthy, while Ninebot is equipped with the LG battery.

It's really funny, you even don't kown that?!:wacko:

The BMS shutdown and the battery quality are two different topics. If too much current is drawn from the batteries the BMS shuts down (and stays shut down - no way to power it on again. You have to connect it to the charger or disconnect the battery to "reset" the BMS). Some EUCs use BMS with a too low current limit, so that in normal operation the BMS cuts off...

Batterie quality is mainly deterioration (over the charging cycles), internal resistance (current/voltage availability under heavy load) and safety while charging.

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As I know, The batteries in Airwheel electric scooters are protected with six protection systems 
1.Over discharge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-discharge. 
2.Over charge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-charge. 
3.Short circuit protection: it is equipped with active protection technology to avoid mainboard and battery damage caused by short circuit. 
4.Overcurrent protection: it has realized intelligent detection of in-out current real time and automatic power cut in case of over power. 
5.Temperature protection: it uses the thermistor and temperature control system to ensure a safe temperature range for the battery.
6.Battery equalization: special electronic technique is applied to minimize single voltage deviation and raise battery efficiency. 

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1 hour ago, Wen Amber said:

As I know, The batteries in Airwheel electric scooters are protected with six protection systems 
1.Over discharge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-discharge. 
2.Over charge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-charge. 
3.Short circuit protection: it is equipped with active protection technology to avoid mainboard and battery damage caused by short circuit. 
4.Overcurrent protection: it has realized intelligent detection of in-out current real time and automatic power cut in case of over power. 
5.Temperature protection: it uses the thermistor and temperature control system to ensure a safe temperature range for the battery.
6.Battery equalization: special electronic technique is applied to minimize single voltage deviation and raise battery efficiency. 

Yup, it avoids battery damage by stopping completely and throwing the rider off the wheel. It's ok, the rider can heal, right? :D

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As the above mentioned that there is no low battery protection and speed limit protection that lead to mainboard shutdown, the Airwheel has safe BMS and meanwhile, the mainboard has four protections. 

For instance, the speed limit protection. To prevent injuries caused by speeding, Airwheel sets a maximum speed. When the speed exceeds 12km/h, the front end of the pedal will rise gradually and when the speed exceeds 16km/h and forwards angle is close to 10°, riders will be unable to accelerate by leaning forwards.  

Meanwhile, if there is less electricity during the riding, the low battery protection in Airwheel will protect you, as well. The low battery protection means that all four lights will blink and the buzzer will beep when power level falls lower than 15%. The front end of the pedals will sink to force you to decelerate and eventually stop. Please do not attempt to ride again, otherwise you may suffer a sudden loss of power and fall over.

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7 hours ago, Wen Amber said:

As I know, The batteries in Airwheel electric scooters are protected with six protection systems 
1.Over discharge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-discharge. 
2.Over charge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-charge. 

Until now i have not heard or seen any effectiv implementation of an over charge protection - in no EUC, unfortionately. The BMS only looks for the overvoltage of all the cells summed up. So if one or more cells are out of order (have to low cell voltage and wont charge anymore) all the other cells are overcharged.

Edit: By the balancing the other cells should be bypassed, but the bad/worn out cells get overcharged...

This is imho the reason for the hoverboards/EUCs starting to burn while charging. With low qualitiy/dead cells you have this risk much earlier, but also with high quality brand cells this will occur once the reach the end of their life span.

Imho this could be solved with a little bit more intelligence in the BMS, since it already "knows" the different cell voltages (for Balancing/Equalization). So it could warn and shut off while charging, to really prevent overcharge for every single cell.

With all the attention drawn by burning hoverboards i assume/hope this change will happen quite fast...

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Some may encounter the scooter tilting problems. And When Airwheel electric scooter tilts to over 45°sideways, e.g. when Airwheel electric scooter turns over, the control system will activate tilting protection. The motor will stop working immediately to prevent injuries.

During the process of riding, when the power level falls less than 15%, all four lights will blink and the buzzer will beep. When the tilting protection or speed limit protection activates, the buzzer will launch long beeps and the LED indicator on the power button will flash continuously. The control system will stop you from further accelerating by beeping and rising the front end of pedal. 

All the protection systems will prevent riders from falling down in any situations, so the shutdown does not exist. 

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On 2015/12/18 at 9:24 AM, Wen Amber said:

As I know, The batteries in Airwheel electric scooters are protected with six protection systems 
1.Over discharge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-discharge. 
2.Over charge protection: it effectively avoids battery damaged caused by over-charge. 
3.Short circuit protection: it is equipped with active protection technology to avoid mainboard and battery damage caused by short circuit. 
4.Overcurrent protection: it has realized intelligent detection of in-out current real time and automatic power cut in case of over power. 
5.Temperature protection: it uses the thermistor and temperature control system to ensure a safe temperature range for the battery.
6.Battery equalization: special electronic technique is applied to minimize single voltage deviation and raise battery efficiency. 

I think you are right, The batteries of Airwheel electric scooters are all certificated by authorities. Incomplete list of certificates are as follows: 1.png.96dfe80ca6f2f1b8390c1a646e50ac3a.p2.png.c590a07efe861408172f95fcbb0549cf.p

3.png.ed077f06c34b30984d3d097b947b268c.p

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On 12/19/2015 at 1:04 PM, KaleOsaurusRex said:

I’ve used several units of Airwheel, and never run into such problems. Do you have any proof to that such problems does occur on Airwheel's devices? I am not lying, just dependening on my own experience. I'm glad to see your evidence.


Anyway when i am using it, it works very well.

On 12/19/2015 at 1:04 PM, KaleOsaurusRex said:

 

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 6/27/2015 at 5:56 PM, KaleOsaurusRex said:

Now it's personal. This is the master list of micro unicycle brands, categorized by safe electrical behavior.

This is the thread to read if you want to buy a uni that "doesn't actively try to kill you" (@esaj).

 

Problem One: BMS shutdown.....
 

 

Just a note to say this just happened to me. How traumatizing! I took a swan dive into the concrete. What a ridiculous predicament! They need to take responsibility for this!!

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