HEC Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 5 minutes ago, SeabirdHH said: Yes, that's correct! But I'm not sure if there was a minimal movement before I put the second foot up. What's a minimal movement? ... 1mm? That's not easy to assess . Well as "minimal" we can probably define something recognizable by the wheel as spinning - lets say several degrees of rotation / cm of linear movement to be detected by wheel itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeabirdHH Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 12 minutes ago, HEC said: Well as "minimal" we can probably define something recognizable by the wheel as spinning - lets say several degrees of rotation / cm of linear movement to be detected by wheel itself. Then there surely was a "minimal" movement. You can't prevent it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 2 minutes ago, SeabirdHH said: Then there surely was a "minimal" movement. You can't prevent it! One theory - already mentioned here as well - is that in some combination / specific position of the wheel (rotor) against the hall sensors the controller board is unable to decide which direction (or if at all) is the wheel about to move and that's what's causing this failure. So small(er) moves in this "dark territory" - like when you're performing a regular standing take-off or start without support but with only minor wheel movement - the board is not detecting any movement if the motor is positioned / rotated in the specific position. This could be (in theory - as again already mentioned here in this thread) tested by marking the tire all around with the marks and try to see if it's possible to reproduce the problem with specific position(s) of the motor / wheel. I was thinking about this a bit more over past two weeks and there could be one pretty "obvious" solution to this. While all EUC (as far as I'm aware) are currently inherently bi-directional meaning that you can drive them either way without having really dedicated front and rear this feature is basically useless during normal driving / using of the wheel. You don't need to "reverse" your EUC from garage or anything like that and unless you're performing some tricks or riding regularly in reverse in addition to forward riding it's no point to have wheel go both ways. So what about having an option in the mobile app where you can switch between bi-directional and unidirectional driving modes defining where's the "front" of the wheel (most wheels are asymmetrical by design anyway so it's not that difficult to declare one of the ends as front, also most of the tires are actually directional as well and have dedicated direction of spinning) and the wheel will behave in the unidirectional mode like car with automatic gearbox. If you lean to front it will start moving (without any confusion which direction to move) or speed up and if you lean back it will slow down or stop. If you're already standing still a mild lean back will "hit the brakes" (can also "lock the wheel" for more safety or light up / blink back red "brake" lights etc.) which will allow to you to stand still on the wheel on incline / decline as well as at traffic lights and crossing or anywhere else where you need to wait for traffic to clear without stepping off the wheel and most of all without overloading the motor / controller by idling and constant switching the direction of the drive. While this would indeed require some development time it would be great addition to the EUC's features and increase the security of both the rider as well as the wheel itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, SeabirdHH said: Then there surely was a "minimal" movement. You can't prevent it! You can try to reproduce the fault..... PowerOn the wheel, grab a pole, fence whatever you can hold on.-.... and before first starting/leaning try to stand still.... I even can recreate it....BUT: It is -for me- really a "reproducing"...in real life i normally never use a pole, but hop on the wheel by pushing it a Little Forward with the left feet, like on a roller/scooter. That is also why i think, that failure does happen (relativly) seldom to advanced users, also because of that it was some month till it got detected and published....a very lot of riders might have thought "ooh...i overleaned".... This all under the prediction that HEC's fault is a different beast...or it even has to be expanded from "first seconds do not lean from stand-still"-fault..to a General "first lean complete weight never from stand-still"-fault..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, HEC said: ...I was thinking about this a bit more over past two weeks and there could be one pretty "obvious" solution to this. While all EUC (as far as I'm aware) are currently inherently bi-directional meaning that you can drive them either way without having really dedicated front and rear this feature is basically useless during normal driving / using of the wheel. You don't need to "reverse" your EUC from garage or anything like that and unless you're performing some tricks or riding regularly in reverse in addition to forward riding it's no point to have wheel go both ways. So what about having an option in the mobile app where you can switch between bi-directional and unidirectional driving modes defining where's the "front" of the wheel ... While this would indeed require some development time it would be great addition to the EUC's features and increase the security of both the rider as well as the wheel itself. I'd assume that won't help If the firmware does not know the position of the wheel, it dors not know which of the three coils to commute next - the restriction with the movement direction won't help o solve this issue... And until the newest gotway/kingsong generation of wheels this was _never_ a problem with most of the wheels.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, Chriull said: I'd assume that won't help If the firmware does not know the position of the wheel, it dors not know which of the three coils to commute next - the restriction with the movement direction won't help o solve this issue... And until the newest gotway/kingsong generation of wheels this was _never_ a problem with most of the wheels.... Well the suggested unidirectional drive mode was meant / would help mainly in the case if it's really a software / FW issue (be it low scanning / detecting / polling frequency or some major oversight or conflict in the programing). And indeed if it's a hardware limitation like hall sensors positioning or anything else prohibiting the controller correct detection of the (direction of) the move at the standing take off it might not be as simple (or even possible) to resolve by the software however (in theory) if such limitation really exists controller would be able to see that rider is leaning from mild (or actually any) back tilt while hitting breaks before take off and "expect" forward tilt / acceleration. So all you'd need to do with standing take off would be to tilt back to hit the brakes (maybe nicely indicated by some configurable / unique beep pattern as well) and then tilt forward to take off. Still a "workaround" of a kind but as long as it would work 100% of the time I'd prefer it to current "lottery" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 11 minutes ago, HEC said: One theory - already mentioned here as well - is that in some combination / specific position of the wheel (rotor) against the hall sensors the controller board is unable to decide which direction (or if at all) is the wheel about to move and that's what's causing this failure. So small(er) moves in this "dark territory" - like when you're performing a regular standing take-off or start without support but with only minor wheel movement - the board is not detecting any movement if the motor is positioned / rotated in the specific position. This could be (in theory - as again already mentioned here in this thread) tested by marking the tire all around with the marks and try to see if it's possible to reproduce the problem with specific position(s) of the motor / wheel. Like i have said/written before...i tried the hell to reproduce the fault while after some minutes of riding...and that the hell often, nearly on every ride i take now. And i have no Problems to reproduce it after the start... So i am not really convinced by this theory...i am still on this "first" (weight) movement theory... But as we all heavily adressed this Problem to Kingsong now, i am sure they will get out a new Firmware soon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: So i am not really convinced by this theory...i am still on this "first" (weight) movement theory... I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this ... do you mean that this only happens the first time your "step on" the wheel after switching it on / first time it needs to use more torque to balance? But in all my cases I have had the wheel switched for several minutes prior the incident and was pushing it around for a while with the trolley handle extended, then I've pushed it by hand front / back few time before stepping on it and finally rock a couple of time while standing on it. During all that time it was balancing just fine. I'm just trying to understand what exactly you suspect is the cause or at which point only it demonstrates according to your observations / tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flass Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 23 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: But as we all heavily adressed this Problem to Kingsong now, i am sure they will get out a new Firmware soon! Sure, but it would IMHO be of extremely great value if a Kingsong representative could take a more active part in answering all the questions here at the forum, or by communicating some news regarding this via other channels (apart from the one post Tina published in this thread a couple of days ago).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 10 minutes ago, HEC said: I'm not sure what exactly you mean by this ... do you mean that this only happens the first time your "step on" the wheel after switching it on / first time it needs to use more torque to balance? But in all my cases I have had the wheel switched for several minutes prior the incident and was pushing it around for a while with the trolley handle extended, then I've pushed it by hand front / back few time before stepping on it and finally rock a couple of time while standing on it. During all that time it was balancing just fine. I'm just trying to understand what exactly you suspect is the cause or at which point only it demonstrates according to your observations / tests. Yip...i really would suspect something like a "first full bodyweight lean in".... Even on my "reproducings" i pushed the wheel a bit around (not far but i've done so) to be sure, it is powered on after button push. So it has the gyro on and works by pushing by Hand....both directions Than i hop on....stay still...by Holding on to something....lean in....Bam! I really never get this to reproduce after some riding or inbetween...2-3 times a day i go with my dog...and very, very often i have to wait for him, and meanwhile hold onto a pole, fence whatever... But during this rides i am not able to "fold it". But in the end: This is all "guessing" and we all have no clue! This fault has to be fixed, thats for sure..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, flass said: Sure, but it would IMHO be of extremely great value if a Kingsong representative could take a more active part in answering all the questions here at the forum, or by communicating some news regarding this via other channels (apart from the one post Tina published in this thread a couple of days ago).... To be honest: Kingsong and Gotway even have representatives here....and at the end of the day....i found their Service, there "parttaking" here and also their wheels real good for such small companys!!! Yes, there are faults and these have to be addressed and there Progress in their wheels could be faster....very often it is better to "wait for V2"..... But: Think of multi-Million Dollar Company Ninebot(bought Segway for 80 Million) and their Firmware faceplanting-board burning-update Desaster! We never received a Statement or Sorry at all....Representative on Forums??? Which one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 7 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: Even on my "reproducings" i pushed the wheel a bit around (not far but i've done so) to be sure, it is powered on after button push. So it has the gyro on and works by pushing by Hand....both directions Than i hop on....stay still...by Holding on to something....lean in....Bam! I'm going to do some testing over the weekend, problem is I only have the latest control-board, which may not exhibit the issue. As can be seen in the below photo, there's some additional anti-vibration measures taken in this latest board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Nice capacitor.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 12 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: I really never get this to reproduce after some riding or inbetween...2-3 times a day i go with my dog...and very, very often i have to wait for him, and meanwhile hold onto a pole, fence whatever... So far - for me - it seems to be also "first" ride or let say close after starting the wheel (but still after several minutes, not seconds as @tinawong claims). Maybe it's down to warming some components during ride? Motor, controller, magnets, coils, any of the sensors (like current sensor maybe??) - good knows what else ... Still I don't like to be (as nicely put by @OliverH) involuntarily a test dummy or beta tester for unfinished products - definitely not for a full product price! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted July 29, 2016 Author Share Posted July 29, 2016 8 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: I'm going to do some testing over the weekend, problem is I only have the latest control-board, which may not exhibit the issue. As can be seen in the below photo, there's some additional anti-vibration measures taken in this latest board. Great - looking forward to the results. See also my last reply to @KingSong69 - maybe we should check the (board) temperature before each test? Please let me know how do you want to proceed with the board replacement / inspection / fixing (soldering the caps if needed)? Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Just now, HEC said: Please let me know how do you want to proceed with the board replacement / inspection / fixing (soldering the caps if needed)? Sending you an email at this very moment ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vido Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Saw this post on fb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeabirdHH Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 7 hours ago, vido said: Saw this post on fb In my case it did not happen during the first 3 seconds. As I said in my post I stepped on the wheel about 30 seconds after switching it on. Kingsong should not remove reasonnable protection mechanisms. ... in update 1.30 no more "mb protection"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 We've 1.15 installed. Happened there two times. It's not related to 1.2 only. It's more like up to 1.2. what do they change else to make a major number upgrade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jesi Posted August 13, 2016 Share Posted August 13, 2016 I did update my ks18, time will tell how it works... Just rided +30km, no problems, but.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flass Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 15 hours ago, jesi said: I did update my ks18, time will tell how it works... Just rided +30km, no problems, but.. but... ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 2 hours ago, flass said: but... ? ..the problem is not riding. It's the way people step on and was only reported on KS16. If someone knows an better end of the sentence feel free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 39 minutes ago, OliverH said: ..the problem is not riding. It's the way people step on and was only reported on KS16. If someone knows an better end of the sentence feel free The Problem was at least also on KS18.....i have reproduced it about a 5-8 times....NOW with 1.21 it is gone! thats also mentioned in the 1.21 changelog! Also some people report a higher "max lift speed" on their wheel, one up to 5kmh more, as KS has updated the "motor driver" also....-confirmed by KS- so they put in new motor driver, stopped the "start from standstill" fault, and get away some minor faults like wheel speaking on bluetooth, more light setting etc. IMHO more on the good side as they listen to their customers... the one in the FB post i think was not knowing which number comes next, so he just assumed it would be called 1.30.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 58 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: The Problem was at least also on KS18.....i have reproduced it about a 5-8 times....NOW with 1.21 it is gone! thats also mentioned in the 1.21 changelog! Also some people report a higher "max lift speed" on their wheel, one up to 5kmh more, as KS has updated the "motor driver" also....-confirmed by KS- so they put in new motor driver, stopped the "start from standstill" fault, and get away some minor faults like wheel speaking on bluetooth, more light setting etc. IMHO more on the good side as they listen to their customers... the one in the FB post i think was not knowing which number comes next, so he just assumed it would be called 1.30.... Thanks for clarification, thought it was KS16 only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vido Posted August 14, 2016 Share Posted August 14, 2016 Would you say it's safe to update to 1.21? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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