Andrei Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Hello everyone. After MCM4 I bought a Kingsong KS 18 with 1360wh battery. I am very disappointed. When I tried to charge it for the first time, it burns in flames. I have a video to explain: I wrote to the supplier and I wait for his answer. Did anyone experienced anything like this? What can I do? Thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Holy crap... I know that the connectors can sometimes spark if there's a large voltage difference, but that looks nasty. Do you have a multimeter so you could measure the voltage of the charger, and possibly (carefully!) from the charge port (in case there's no reverse protection diode)? How are you plugging the charger in, is the plug in the wall outlet before you plug it into the port? If there ISN'T a reverse protection diode in the BMS, you can get a spark (well, not that big, I'd think?) if you plug the charger without it first being powered from a wall-outlet. If there IS a reverse protection diode, you could get a spark if you plug in the charger WITH it being in the wall-outlet. But even so, that sparking looks pretty excessive... Does the wheel otherwise work ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 Could it be reverse polarity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 3 minutes ago, SlowMo said: Could it be reverse polarity? Exactly, @Andrei, this is not normal, is there another charger you can test with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 you were wiggeling a bit, wet/sweaty hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted May 5, 2016 Author Share Posted May 5, 2016 The charger is not in the wall outlet when I try to connect it with the device. And is only one way the charger fits the device. I cannot fit it in in a wrong way because it has a certain shape. I do not have any other charger to test with. Just now, Jurgen said: you were wiggeling a bit, wet/sweaty hands? All dry. No wet. 16 minutes ago, esaj said: Holy crap... I know that the connectors can sometimes spark if there's a large voltage difference, but that looks nasty. Do you have a multimeter so you could measure the voltage of the charger, and possibly (carefully!) from the charge port (in case there's no reverse protection diode)? How are you plugging the charger in, is the plug in the wall outlet before you plug it into the port? If there ISN'T a reverse protection diode in the BMS, you can get a spark (well, not that big, I'd think?) if you plug the charger without it first being powered from a wall-outlet. If there IS a reverse protection diode, you could get a spark if you plug in the charger WITH it being in the wall-outlet. But even so, that sparking looks pretty excessive... Does the wheel otherwise work ok? Yes. The wheel still works well. Is not fully discharged yet. Was the first time when I tried to plug the charger. Mostly to verify it. Because I bought the wheel recently and I want to test it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 If the charger is not in the wall outlet when you plug it in the wheel, I don't think it could be reverse/wrong polarity of the charger. If the wheel otherwise works fine, it's likely the charger, or a problem with the BMS. What I'd suspect right now off the top of my head (but could be wrong): the charger is faulty, and the output-side is in short circuit, DO NOT TRY TO PLUG IT IN ANYMORE The sparks are caused by very high current running through the short-circuited charger EDIT: Safest route to verify this is probably either measure (with the charger unplugged from mains!) the resistance between the "holes" in charger output-plug (the one that goes to the wheel), if there's very low or 0-resistance, it's certainly in short-circuit (there are probably filter caps there, which might affect the reading, but I don't think it should show short circuit on a working charger), or borrow a certainly working charger from somewhere and try with that to see if it starts to charge normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 You have the charger of the MCM4 to test with. It should fit the charge port of the KS18. Please plug the charger first to the wall outlet before plugging to the KS18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 I'd assume that the kingsongs have the reverse polarity diode - so this should not come from a bad charger? Also, remembering @esajs molten probe a short circuit of the batteries should imho be much more " impressive"? So this leaves imho either quite an overvoltage from the charger or some short circuit at the charger port or bms. Some solder "blobs" or strands of the wires? charger voltage can be quite easily measured with a multimeter, if you have one. The voltage adjustment should also be no real effort - there is a instruction video around here somewhere... Imho also a possible shortcut at the charger port or bms could be quite easiliy identified and repaired with an soldering iron. but i'd also fully understand if one is quite hesitant to do such works with a new wheel at this price, especially while it still is in the warranty period - also not everyone has a multimeter and/or soldering iron at home and is aquainted with their usage. On the other side a replacement could take quite some time and sommer is starting.... Additionally there could be already quite some material missing from the plug and the port, as the spark looked to be... So esaj's advice to not plug in the charger (edit: also no other charger!) anymore sounds very good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted May 5, 2016 Share Posted May 5, 2016 A tools like the charge doctor is useful in a case like this. Using the charge doctor: Connect it only to the charger port if it displays no voltage the port is diode protected, if it displays a voltage it should be positive and not over 68v. Then check the charger not connected to the charge port, voltage should be posive and below 68v and higher than 65v. Most likely you have a defective charger with no polarity protection. Get a quality charger with polarity protection, if the problem is on the wheel and the charger has polarity protection no damage should occur to the batteries or the charger, if to save money you use a charger without polarity protection you risk not only the charger, but also the wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted May 6, 2016 Author Share Posted May 6, 2016 The supplier agreed to send me a new charger and a new outlet to install on the wheel. I'll be back soon to tell you how it works. Thank you very much for your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 27 minutes ago, Andrei said: The supplier agreed to send me a new charger and a new outlet to install on the wheel. I'll be back soon to tell you how it works. Thank you very much for your time. Did you try the Gotway charger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted May 6, 2016 Author Share Posted May 6, 2016 4 minutes ago, SlowMo said: Did you try the Gotway charger? No. I'm afraid not to damage this charger if it is a problem with the wheel outlet. In this case I will have two broken wheels :)) Maybe it is better to have patience and wait for a new one. The supplier told me will send it with a fast cargo. Two or three days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Andrei said: The supplier agreed to send me a new charger and a new outlet to install on the wheel. I'll be back soon to tell you how it works. Thank you very much for your time. Great! As far as i remember some members reported here that one should be quite carefull soldering the port pins - they shall get loose quite easily... Once you have your wheel open you could imho use this chance to also inspect the BMS (at least if there is nothing obvious at the charger port...) You can do the first "steps" without unwrapping the battery pack - just look with a voltmeter if there is any voltage at the charging cables of the pack(s): A ) If there is a voltage (no polarity protection diode present) you should get a voltage of about 52V (almost empty pack) up to 67V (full pack). (Edit: important addition from @Keith: * ) Then you should also be quite cautious handling the charging cables while soldering them to the new port - there is NO overcurrent protection on the charging side! But you should be ready to go on and install the charging port - in this case you also can easily check the right cabling of the charging port by measuring the output of the charger plug and compare it to the polarity of the charging cables at the port. (has to be the same - to - and + to +) B ) If not (0V shown or just some very very low values from interferences) there is an polarity protection diode in place and you can measure the resistance between this cables: B 1) The ohmmeter shows something like infinite (or a very very high number). Also in this case everything should be fine to install the charging port, but you cannot really check the right cabling of the port (polarity). So just solder the cables to the new port and try the charger before you assemble your wheel again, just in case... B 2) The ohmmeter shows something around 0 Ohm (or a very low number) - then the short circuit is in the charge (protection) side of the BMS and you'd have to exchange the battery pack. Maybe you have a small chance to find something obvious if you unwrap the battery pack, but i'd go with an exchange. Good Luck and happy driving after the exchange! ps.: Btw foto documentation before and while disassembling is always nice - just in case. Its always bad to sit there afterwards and speculate where the different parts belong to... ... And such documentations fit very good in this forum as instruction for others in the same position... *) The voltage reading could also have any value between 0-52(67)V (presumably depending on the inner resistance of the voltmeter and the resisitance of the non conductive diode). So this would be like in case B 1 - reverse voltage protection diode present and no short circuit at the BMS side -> so everything should be ok! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted May 6, 2016 Share Posted May 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Chriull said: Great! As far as i remember some members reported here that one should be quite carefull soldering the port pins - they shall get loose quite easily... Once you have your wheel open you could imho use this chance to also inspect the BMS (at least if there is nothing obvious at the charger port...) You can do the first "steps" without unwrapping the battery pack - just look with a voltmeter if there is any voltage at the charging cables of the pack(s): A ) If there is a voltage (no polarity protection diode present) you should get a voltage of about 52V (almost empty pack) up to 67V (full pack). Then you should also be quite cautious handling the charging cables while soldering them to the new port. I would be very suprised if the charge socket isn't the same as on the KS-14 and terminates on a Deans plug. So replacing the socket in the wheel shouldn't require any soldering. I checked across the charge socket on my KS-14 and my multimeter reads around 35V, so there is protection circuits but some voltage (probably at very high impedance) can be read. However, as @Chriull has said, shorting the battery charging lead may cause very high current to flow, so when changing the lead or if you need to solder anything be very careful the red and black leads from the battery can never accidentally touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted May 13, 2016 Author Share Posted May 13, 2016 Problem solved. The supplier sent a new charger and a new interface ( outlet ). I had to open the wheel and change the outlet. As you can see in the photo, the outlet was the problem. The wires were mixed up. Now works fine. Thank you everyone for your time and support. Problem solved. The supplier sent a new charger and a new interface ( outlet ). I had to open the wheel and change the outlet. As you can see in the photo, the outlet was the problem. The wires were mixed up. Now works fine. Thank you everyone for your time and support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 How the hell did that pass inspection? They don't do testing? Not good... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Kingsong will just learn in the news that a house got burned.while the owner was connecting his KS unit to the charger. That's what I call "quality control". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 @Andrei wow, that is REALLY bad, thank heavens you didn't try the advice of plugging in another charger. I also wonder what would have happened to a charge doctor if it had been plugged in. However, what I cannot get my head around is the protection circuitry should have prevented the arcing from happening as the wiring fault was between the BMS (where any reverse/short circuit protection would be) and charging socket, so there should have been the same protection as if you had accidentally shorted the pins etc. Bottom line, it also looks like there is no charge protection circuitry on the KS-16? Alternately, the reversal has blown the protection circuitry on the BMS? If I were you I would be looking for the supplier to replace the batteries/BMS as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 3 minutes ago, Keith said: @Andrei wow, that is REALLY bad, thank heavens you didn't try the advice of plugging in another charger. I also wonder what would have happened to a charge doctor if it had been plugged in. However, what I cannot get my head around is the protection circuitry should have prevented the arcing from happening as the wiring fault was between the BMS (where any reverse/short circuit protection would be) and charging socket, so there should have been the same protection as if you had accidentally shorted the pins etc. Bottom line, it also looks like there is no charge protection circuitry on the KS-16? Alternately, the reversal has blown the protection circuitry on the BMS? If I were you I would be looking for the supplier to replace the batteries/BMS as well. Thank you. Unfortunately I was not so smart, and I followed the advice to try my Gotway MCM4 charger. As you can imagine, I burned it too. So I had to repair it also. Now both works fine. :)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 30 minutes ago, Andrei said: Thank you. Unfortunately I was not so smart, and I followed the advice to try my Gotway MCM4 charger. As you can imagine, I burned it too. So I had to repair it also. Now both works fine. :)) Sorry for my bad advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrei Posted May 19, 2016 Author Share Posted May 19, 2016 20 minutes ago, SlowMo said: Sorry for my bad advice. Don't worry. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 That's completely messed up!! Someone has some explaining to do... There should have been multiple levels of checks/mechanisms to ensure this never happens! The charger should have reverse polarity detection, or at the very least cut of current. It passed UL certification, what's the point of this if it allows you to connect to the wrong polarity! I recently received a copy of the KS QC test report. It's actually pretty thorough, step seven really should have detected & caught this oversight. That it didn't, requires someone to provide some answers There are also at least 4 fuses in your Wheel (one in each 32 cell pack), a bit disturbing one didn't blow. Suggested the charger because I thought it inconceivable that they could screw-up something like this. https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/5c997954/files/uploaded/ul.pdf SELV Reliability Test Including Hazardous Voltage Measurements (2.2.2, 2.2.3, 2.2.4, Part Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearedbliss Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 Wow that's crazy, I was thinking the same exact thing "How the hell did this pass QA?" This is not even an edge case scenario.. it's one of the most common scenarios.. plug the cable to charge it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael de Gans Posted May 19, 2016 Share Posted May 19, 2016 I'm not jumping on the brandwagon here. I love KingSong products (which is why I sell them) but before we send out any wheel we HAVE to do our own Quality Control after our last incident with @DS where a brand new KS-14C 800W 680Wh had broken parts in the motor causing friction that blew the motherboard. Once again I love KingSong but beware.. Quality Control is as trustworthy as your dog with a roast beef sandwich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.