IPS121 forward inclination

[Jason McNeil]

Thanks Fabio for uploading the video. Out curiosity, I used the same App on the King Song I ride 25km everyday & as you can see it's has an offset angle of more than 6°!

Others are welcome to repeat the experiment on their Wheel(s), I think the results might be pretty similar. 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Thanks for the video Jason and putting up with this continuing saga.  I bet it's not easy running a business and dealing with issues like this.  I think that's why although I was tempted to get into selling these in Canada I decided nooooo better not... I'll stick to my day job.

I wonder whether that foam padding material that you have on the pedal is altering the apparent angle that the app is reading.  Do you have an IPS121 with bare metal pedals on hand to try?

[fabio70mi]

Yes, nice to compare tilt angles.

Do I have to ride with higher pedal front sided ? I will give a new try tomorrow.

Anyway, riding with 6 degrees backward it's your choice (because I think it's configurable). I have to ride with 2-3 degrees backward, no choice.

I will write new feeling.

[Jason McNeil]

5 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

I wonder whether that foam padding material that you have on the pedal is altering the apparent angle that the app is reading.  

It's neoprene, pretty hard stuff, so doesn't alter the reported angle. I'll ask my colleague in the UK to test with another 121, but am 98.2% certain it will be nearly identical.

@HunkaHunkaBurningLove is it possible to do the test with your generic Wheel?

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Actually I did it the other day on my generic which I have not calibrated, and I read 0.2 degrees.  Remember with the iHandy Level app to place it on the floor next to the wheel and assuming the floor is pretty flat and level to press the calibrate button (little square icon with the target in it) first to zero it.  It looks like 2-3 degrees may not be that bad if you're riding on 6?  I'm going to calibrate my wheel to 3 degrees and give it a try so I can get some experience with how that feels.

One other thought - it could also depend on what shoes you are wearing Fabio as some have a higher heel and slippery soles.   Do you have any flat tennis shoes or skateboard shoes that are flat to try?  It does look like people ride these with the high side going forwards?  It just seemed to make more sense the other way around to me.

EDIT:

Okay, I rechecked my EUC, and it was reading about 0.3 to 0.8 degrees (yeah that iHandy Level app is a little wonky) after calibrating the app on the floor right next to the wheel.  I ran a calibration cycle by shorting the two pins near the middle of my board next to the hall sensor wires, and I got this reading while calibrating the wheel at a slight tilt.

I did my usual run of 5 kms around the neighbourhood, and I found that it did feel a little weird as the toes point slightly down when starting off.  I did notice that going at speed my generic EUC actually tilts up the pedals so the feet are fairly level, and the ride feels pretty normal.  In fact the foot to lower leg angle is actually more "natural" like in a standing position whereas normally when riding it feels like the lower legs are more acute with the feet.  I did find this position pretty comfortable travelling at speed although it seemed I was hitting the warning beeps more often.  The warning tilt-back could still be felt nearing 14 KPH , but it was not as pronounced if you know what I mean.

The only problem I found was while riding slowly the "toe down" angle returns so it feels a little weird - not unmanageable, but it feels like the feet are angled downwards slightly.  I didn't go over too many bumps, but I could see how this might make the feet slide forwards as I don't have any grip tape on my pedals.  It did seem easier to slide the feet backwards a bit whenever needed.

After returning home I took a couple of more readings.  My battery was pretty low so that might explain the difference from the initial angle?  I don't know.  My battery did seem to run out a little faster than normal for some reason, but I did charge it with my Cranium Charger from a low state a couple of days ago.  Very odd - I've switched back to my OEM charger to see if there's a difference.  I can't wait for my Charge Doctor to arrive.  I might have to adjust the cutoff pot on my Cranium Charger.

So there you go - I think I was probably riding for 5 km with pedal angles at 3.5 to 5.3 degrees with the tilt downwards in a forwards direction.  I didn't try it in the reverse position.  Overall I think if a wheel has a pedal tilt of about 1 to 2.5 degrees it still should be fine.  Adding some layers of grip tape to the front half of the pedal might level it out even more making it unnoticeable.  I found that 3.5 degrees tilt is comfortable riding at speed (about 11 KPH in my case) as the tilt disappears, but the toedown stance going slowly takes a little getting used to.  I've reset my wheel to 0.2 to 0.8 as I'm used to it that way.  My pedals seem a little warped but the top side still looks okay.  I've trimmed my carpet underlay to small squares just to cover the boxes on the sides so it looks better now.  I would have to try an IPS121 to see if a 1-2 degree tilt would be a deal breaker, but considering I was riding at about an average of 4.4 degrees approximately I feel that a small tilt of half that may not be that bad, and it could actually lessen strain on the tibialis anterior muscle of the lower leg over long trips.  To each their own though of course.

Just for reference, I have a generic EUC that I have owned since last summer, and I have ridden about 200 kms so far so I think I'm in the beginner / intermediate rider class.

[SlowMo]

12 hours ago, fabio70mi said:

Hello,

below the link to measures I've made to IPS121.

If it's not good, or need other testing I can do, I will do

I see no problem there and a 3 degree offset should not in anyway be a manufacturing defect. I'ts completely normal. 

[US69]

@fabio70mi

first: what i Forget:

welcome to this Forum and The World of unicycle's!

 

from your Video...I can only Tell:

get used to it!!!! There Is nothing defect...nothing Out of Order....The angle You have their Is absolut normal and thats nothing what Is Special with this Wheel!

please don't Blame The seller for this....if he gives You a refund...and You Are just Talking of the postal fee from italy to UK...You Are very good to Go! My 2 Cents...which just means "in my humble opinion"!

really: a Lot People Could post their angle's here and it would Not Look Good for You!

if You don't like The "riding" Style of this Unit....take it As a learning lesson...and Perhaps before buying -changing to another wheel....The Next Time Arrange a Test Ride somewhere!!!

 

at all i can -NEVER- understand The decision to buy this "old" IpS for about 700 Bucks....when so much more good options Are out there NOW!

700bucks my picks:

kingsong 14b

gotway MCM3

and there Are some more to choose......

[fabio70mi]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

@fabio70mi

first: what i Forget:

welcome to this Forum and The World of unicycle's!

Thank you for your welcome and thank you all partecipants to this thread.

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

from your Video...I can only Tell:

get used to it!!!! There Is nothing defect...nothing Out of Order....The angle You have their Is absolut normal and thats nothing what Is Special with this Wheel!

please don't Blame The seller for this....if he gives You a refund...and You Are just Talking of the postal fee from italy to UK...You Are very good to Go! My 2 Cents...which just means "in my humble opinion"!

really: a Lot People Could post their angle's here and it would Not Look Good for You!

if You don't like The "riding" Style of this Unit....take it As a learning lesson...and Perhaps before buying -changing to another wheel....The Next Time Arrange a Test Ride somewhere!!!

I have not yet tried to ride with higher side front. I will do on weekend.

In Milano I was able to test ride only Ninebot and Solowheel. I don't know about other chinese brands sellers to test ride.

I think 90% of EUC riders has problems to have a test ride session, or troubles with far far away support.

Ninebot was 300€ more and with smaller batteries. Now I doubt it would be better to buy it from local seller and assistance, possibility to test ride, more modern, more features, no shipping costs.   Solowheel too expensive.

 

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

 

at all i can -NEVER- understand The decision to buy this "old" IpS for about 700 Bucks....when so much more good options Are out there NOW!

700bucks my picks:

kingsong 14b

gotway MCM3

and there Are some more to choose......

I trusted Jason reputation and his advice about a good 700-800 bucks EU.

I have my thought about this, but other my previous thought about defective product happened to be false,

so we could ask him to tell us why he adviced me the IPS121.

He told me he used IPS121 for a long time, perhaps he loved it a lot.

Fabio

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

It takes a big man to admit to one's mistakes so good on you Fabio.  I hope the IPS121 turns out to be not as bad as you may have first thought after riding it for a while.

Jason seems like an outstanding individual as well as far as I can tell (BTW I have had no dealings with him on a seller-customer basis), and it looks like he did give his honest opinion about the IPS121 in that review he posted dated June of 2015.  It sounds like he's the type of guy who stands behind what he sells from all the positive and enthusiastic bordering on mad-love sort of feedback I'm seeing here.  You don't see a lot of people posting up written, detailed personal reviews of their products so that does say something.

Since June of 2015 a lot has changed with many new models and options coming out while other models have experienced problems like firmware failures, overheating, and burned out motherboards.  It looks like the hill climbing ability of the IPS121 beats out lesser units at the time of the review so that was and is one of it's strong points.  I don't think you'll ever find a perfect wheel or a perfect review as each has it's strengths and weaknesses.  Take car buying for example.  Most reviews are pretty glowing for the latest and greatest, but they may not list every eccentricity to each model.   Some things bother some people more while others wouldn't blink an eye to them.  The gas level gauge in my car stopped working ages ago, but I adapted to it.  It's a common issue with my car I have read.

People recommend the Ninebot One, and they still do even though there have been a rash of firmware issues.  Those types of things aren't likely to be included in any review you see.  People can give their opinion of a product, but they may not be able to predict issues with them or tell you about all the details that might concern you.  A slight tilt sounds like it's characteristic to IPS, and it likely is so slight most people adapt to it.  SloMo's kids seem to ride them with the higher side up in a forwards direction so you could try that.  Something simple like adding some grip tape could solve all your concerns if applied to counter the tilt.  At this point in time it is difficult to arrange personal test drives unless you live close by to a dealer or are willing to travel.  EUC's are still in their infancy and have a lot of growing up to do.  I'm still learning every day, and it's good that you brought your issue up in the forum since it might be a concern for others looking at the IPS brand.

We all also have to keep in mind that English is NOT the centre of the universe language so the subtle expressions and meanings that we may take for granted might be lost when someone is sending a message that is not in their mother tongue.  It's too easy to get the wrong impression or come to false conclusions sometimes.  Sorry - that's the end of my rant for the day.  It is true when you get older that one develops a sort of verbal diarrhea. 

[fabio70mi]

Hello,

this afternoon I rode 8 km in about 1h in a park close to my place.

So, for me,

the forward inclination is a minor issue, only with very slow speed, maybe attempting a sidewalk ramp (not sure about correct term),

surprisingly, I found more unconfortable the generous tiltback, when riding at beeping speed (most of the time), because of the dorsiflexion of feet (not sure about correct english terms).

I will record and post a video on next days, when riding and with friend available.

Fabio 

 

 

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Hey I'm so glad to hear that the inclination isn't as bad as you first thought.  Did you ride with the tilt going downwards in a forwards position?  That may lessen the dorsiflexion especially with an aggressive tiltback tendency on the IPS121.  I think it was mentioned that the tiltback at beeping speed is there for safety to prevent overleaning and overpowering the motor.  Pushing too much past that speed could result in a faceplant accident.

How is the climbing ability?   I wish my wheel didn't slow down to a crawl going up inclines.  I can only do about 3-4 kph up a mild incline.

[fabio70mi]

9 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

I think it was mentioned that the tiltback at beeping speed is there for safety to prevent overleaning and overpowering the motor.  Pushing too much past that speed could result in a faceplant accident.

I will have to ride and check better, but I feel that unconfortable dorsiflexion (for my body) begins before first beeps. 

9 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

How is the climbing ability?   I wish my wheel didn't slow down to a crawl going up inclines.  I can only do about 3-4 kph up a mild incline.

I have to measure climb speed. For my short experience climbing garage ramp, IPS121 seems climbing quite well.

PS: what do you use to measure speed with mobile ? I will try sports-tracker to have a speed log.

Fabio

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

I use Easy Trails on my iPhone.  It's easy to use and you can save the maps, but I don't think there is a version for Android.  There is also Map My Run, but I found it a little buggy.  MMR is on android too.  Sports Tracker looks to have some good reviews.

Maybe try with the tilt down in a forwards direction.  That might help as the wheel starts tilting up.  

[fabio70mi]

1 minute ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Maybe try with the tilt down in a forwards direction.  That might help as the wheel starts tilting up.  

Sure I was riding with lower pedal forward. I tried with higher pedal forward but it's getting a little worse.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

My regular cruising speed is 11 kph, and I see that the IPS121 is at 16 kph.  I wish mine were a little faster as 16 kph sounds just about right.  If I go faster it starts beeping and the tiltback starts which is not comfortable to ride with so I slow down  and keep it under 12 kph.

At 16 kph do you find the tiltback state uncomfortable?  I wonder then if maybe using a shoe with a slight heel might help compensate.  They should have adjustable tiltback rates on these EUCs so people can customize it to their liking.

[fabio70mi]

7 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

At 16 kph do you find the tiltback state uncomfortable?  I wonder then if maybe using a shoe with a slight heel might help compensate.  They should have adjustable tiltback rates on these EUCs so people can customize it to their liking.

I will tell you on next days the effective GPS speed.

I'm using shoes with orthotics for foot pronation, and they have already slight heel. Could be better maybe with taller heel, but I want to use my everyday shoes.

IPS121 sold on Amazon was claiming 30kph max speed (I thought they were the same IPS121 models). I wonder how tilt back was behaving on that IPS121.

 

You are right, customization is essential for such products. I think it's also trivial to achieve this goal because it's only software based.

I hope EUC users having soon an opensource firmware running on a robust, generic and maybe cheap mainboard to upgrade existent products like obsoletes IPS121.

 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Maybe try adding some skateboard grip tape to the back half of the pedal where your heel rests.  That might help a bit.  Also point the feet outwards slightly as I hear that helps.  I'm still working on my technique so take my hints with a grain of salt as I'm no expert (I just like pretending to be one! ).

The maximum speed ratings are usually the speed where you are about to faceplant so think of it as a maximum speed "capable" on the wheel or theoretical speed.  It may not be a realistic speed to be at as the BMS could cut out sooner if the battery is low or getting old, or if you are going up an incline, the rider's weight is higher than tested weight or if it is windy, etc..   My wheel is rated at 18 kph, and I had it up to about 14 kph a few times yet I ride at 11 kph normally.  It's nice to have a little safety breathing room speed to spare.  Maximum speed to me is like a cliff that needs to be respected.  You want to get close to the edge sometimes, but you don't want to go over.  In our case this cliff edge is moving so you don't know where it might be exactly so the danger is higher.

There seem to be some confusing specs on the IPS 121 online as this link indicates top speed is 20 kph.  Other websites claim 30 kph.

http://www.skateonroad.com/differences-of-ips121-ips122-and-ips123-self-balancing-electric-unicycle.html

If a comfortable cruising speed is about 16 kph on the IPS I'm guessing that the top speed might be more around 22-23 kph for this wheel as I'm thinking it likely starts beeping at 18 kph and tilting back at 20?  That would give a 2-3 kph safety margin for wind, weight, tire pressure, angle of climb, etc..

I think customization will likely mature with new models.  R & D money is likely being spent on other higher priority areas at the moment, but it is good to talk about feature requests if any manufacturers are out there listening.

[Jurgen]

@fabio70mi

it  seems something is wrong if it is that noticable, have the wheel checked out by your reseller?

[fabio70mi]

44 minutes ago, Jurgen said:

@fabio70mi

it  seems something is wrong if it is that noticable, have the wheel checked out by your reseller?

I live in Milano Italy, and WheelGo is in London. It's not cheap to have a check.

I'm waiting for saturday to make a video going at slow speed and beep speed to show unconfortable inclinations on this thread.

Fabio

[MaxLinux]

On ‎4‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 4:01 AM, fabio70mi said:

Who sold me the whee, told me it's the model peculiarity. I think it' bad calibration. I don't want to ride with this setting.

This sounds like bad calibration. My IPS 121 is level when turned on. By "level," I mean my feet do not feel like they will slide off. I did not actually measure with a level, but visually, the pedals look parallel to the floor. I agree with HunkaHunkaBurningLove that since low-end generics can be calibrated, it seems likely that an IPS can too. Maybe you can ask IPS directly if/how the IPS 121 can be calibrated.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

@MaxLinux Can you try that iHandy Level app on your unit?  Try pressing the zero button while it is on the floor next to the wheel first, then take a measurement on the pedal.  How do you find the tiltback on the IPS 121?  Does it become uncomfortable at cruising speed?  If it's uncomfortable for Fabio even with the pre-existing tilt down to start with, I don't know if having it level would be advantageous as I would think it would end up tilting back even more?

I'm sure there must be a jumper to set the level calibration on the board, but looking at photos the control board is encased in a metal box.  Also the jumper points might not have a nice pin port to easily jumper so accidentally shorting something out on the control board if one doesn't have electronic experience would void the warranty to be sure.  On option might be to try mounting the control board at a tilt as someone else mentioned in this thread if being level is critical.  What's your impression of your IPS 121?  Is it a good wheel overall for the money?

[MaxLinux]

9 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

@MaxLinux Can you try that iHandy Level app on your unit? How do you find the tiltback on the IPS 121? Does it become uncomfortable at cruising speed? What's your impression of your IPS 121? Is it a good wheel overall for the money?

I hope to try iHandy soon. I'll post the result when I have done so. I have no problem with the tiltback on the IPS 121. It is quite comfortable at cruising speed. In my opinion, IPS 121 is a great wheel overall for the money.

I love my IPS 121! Here are a few reasons. It's built like a tank. It can take hard crashes with only minor scratches. The styling is very cool. The ride is super smooth. The battery is big, enabling long rides. Possibly my favorite feature is POWER. IPS 121 is a very capable hill climber!

[fabio70mi]

Hi,

I'm posting a video with inclinations at slow, medium and beep speed, and extra stuff.

Fabio

 

[Jeffrey Scott Will]

On May 2, 2016 at 1:46 PM, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

My regular cruising speed is 11 kph, and I see that the IPS121 is at 16 kph.  I wish mine were a little faster as 16 kph sounds just about right.  If I go faster it starts beeping and the tiltback starts which is not comfortable to ride with so I slow down  and keep it under 12 kph.

At 16 kph do you find the tiltback state uncomfortable?  I wonder then if maybe using a shoe with a slight heel might help compensate.  They should have adjustable tiltback rates on these EUCs so people can customize it to their liking.

You do realize adjustable tilt back has been around already for awhile right? King song and Gotway both offer this along with level calibration and adjustable beep settings. 

This whole thing seems to come down to a lack of product research before buying, which I think OP now realizes. IPS is not a bad product, but for more demanding and particular customers (hey, I'm one of those too- I get it!) it doesn't make much sense to buy a wheel with no options. 

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Hey nice video Fabio!  You're going pretty fast in some scenes.  The angle doesn't seem that bad, but I see what you mean about the slight tilt when you are going slow.  It looks like it does level out at speed and near the speed warning beeps it tilts back to help avoid a face plant.   Were you able to track some speeds with an app?  I wonder if positioning your feet slightly more forwards might make the tilt back less bothersome.  BTW I like your "backup" wheel when the batteries die in the IPS!

I've never tried anything else other than my generic so no I didn't know other wheels had customizable tilt back adjustments.  You can reduce the angle of the tilt back or just set it for a certain speed or both?  For a first wheel sometimes people don't want to speed a huge amount of money so they might not buy top of the line especially if you aren't certain you'll end up liking riding a EUC.  I'm sure it's probably not too hard to sell these off on Kijiji or somewhere so maybe he'll upgrade later to a KS or GW.