Where is EUC market heading? End of spec wars

[techyiam]

9 minutes ago, WheelGoodTime said:

A voltage with sign will be released in 2025.

Can you clarify? 

9 minutes ago, WheelGoodTime said:

is it really necessary in continue to increase the volts, seemingly for bragging rights?

Yes, if it helps sales. And no, if it hurts sales.

Notice, Et Max is 168 V, then Griffin came down to 151.2 V, and finally the Blitz went lower, back to 134.4 V.

Edited August 2 by techyiam

[InfiniteWheelie]

@WheelGoodTime

Even though some wheels are quite powerful already, more power is always better for performance and safety.

This is most easily done with more voltage. This does come with its own safety problems with electrical shocks, but it can be designed around.

We’re nowhere near maxing out the Samsung 50s cells, which have a continuous discharge of 5c.

The Sherman L uses less than 1c to reach the motors continuous power rating. If you went from 6p to 2p, you’d triple the voltage with the same amount of cells. By keeping the total amp output the same you’d have 3x power, and the discharge rate would only jump to 2.5c.

Edited August 2 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, WheelGoodTime said:

A wheel with more than 200v will be released in 2025. Don't ask me how I know this. I won't give you details. "trust me bro"

This could be a good thing if this wheel prove to be a wheel people are wanting to upgrade to.

There appears to be interest in the Sherman-L, which replaces the Sherman-S. And the voltage went from 100.8 V to 151.2 V. So far, people like the motor performance. 

 

[WheelGoodTime]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

Can you clarify? 

Yes, if it helps sales. And no, if it hurts sales.

Notice, Et Max is 168 V, then Griffin came down to 151.2 V, and finally the Blitz went lower, back to 134.4 V.

i mistyped and/or autocorrect got me real good. a 200v+ EUC is on its way. typo fixed.

[dwagelaar]

13 hours ago, on one said:

@dwagelaar @meepmeepmayer how do I look someone up based on their user name without using them in an actual public post. By the way I think those foot gliders are completely fabulous @Esash

You can use the forum search function while filtering on Members (see attached picture).

[on one]

Okay thanks, @dwagelaar I tried that but it wasn't working for me, maybe I was doing it wrong.

Edited August 3 by on one
precision

[Censored Truth]

The big elephant in the room in regards to "Volt Wars" is: We should be able to go 60-70+ mph on 84 Volts. We don't need higher voltage.

 

Just look at other PEVs like E-Skateboards, eBike (mopeds), and E-Scooters. That's proof.

The fastest, most powerful production scooters (Emove Roadster, InMotion RS) are only 72 - 84 volts and 1000 - 2000 watts, but can go between 68 - 80 mph.

The Highest Powered Surron Storm Bee is only 104 Volts, 10,000 Watts and go 68 mph. other Surrons are only like 60 - 72 Volts and still can go 50+ mph.

The Raith E-skateboard is 40 Volts and 8000 watts peak, and can go 81 mph. 

 

These EUC companies have made us believe falsely that we need 134 - 168 volts to go 60+ mph. The reality is we have not reached the full potential of 84 volt EUCs. A 168 Volt wheel should easily go 100+ WITH a RIDER ON IT. There is no need for 200 volt EUCs. The EUC makers should Maximize the Volts we already have like other PEV makers

Either these EUC Makers (1)don't know how to use the full potential of the Voltage and Wattage power, (2) Or they limited the power (Hint InMotion can Unlock 60 mph on V13) or (3) They are lying about the Volts and Watts specs (A 50 Watt Chinese Speaker is not as loud as a 20 Watt Sony or JBL Speaker) or (4) China Metrics is different from the rest of the world (A Large Shirt in China is like a Medium in the United States, and their shoe sizes are a size smaller)...

Whatever it is we not getting the full capabilities of the specs (Volts and Watts) they sell us. But they sell the EUCs at full price of the specs listed on paper. There shouldn't be "Volts Wars". They should use the full capabilities of what we already have. We have been misled.

[Tomallo]

1 hour ago, Censored Truth said:

The big elephant in the room in regards to "Volt Wars" is: We should be able to go 60-70+ mph on 84 Volts. We don't need higher voltage.

 

Just look at other PEVs like E-Skateboards, eBike (mopeds), and E-Scooters. That's proof.

The fastest, most powerful production scooters (Emove Roadster, InMotion RS) are only 72 - 84 volts and 1000 - 2000 watts, but can go between 68 - 80 mph.

The Highest Powered Surron Storm Bee is only 104 Volts, 10,000 Watts and go 68 mph. other Surrons are only like 60 - 72 Volts and still can go 50+ mph.

The Raith E-skateboard is 40 Volts and 8000 watts peak, and can go 81 mph. 

 

These EUC companies have made us believe falsely that we need 134 - 168 volts to go 60+ mph. The reality is we have not reached the full potential of 84 volt EUCs. A 168 Volt wheel should easily go 100+ WITH a RIDER ON IT. There is no need for 200 volt EUCs. The EUC makers should Maximize the Volts we already have like other PEV makers

Either these EUC Makers (1)don't know how to use the full potential of the Voltage and Wattage power, (2) Or they limited the power (Hint InMotion can Unlock 60 mph on V13) or (3) They are lying about the Volts and Watts specs (A 50 Watt Chinese Speaker is not as loud as a 20 Watt Sony or JBL Speaker) or (4) China Metrics is different from the rest of the world (A Large Shirt in China is like a Medium in the United States, and their shoe sizes are a size smaller)...

Whatever it is we not getting the full capabilities of the specs (Volts and Watts) they sell us. But they sell the EUCs at full price of the specs listed on paper. There shouldn't be "Volts Wars". They should use the full capabilities of what we already have. We have been misled.

Though my electronics knowledge is limited, I'm pretty sure the type of motor they use in surrons, electric scooters, etc. differs enough from what we use in EUC's that it's not really an arbitrary limitation, and there is, in fact, a reason as to why we need higher voltage. Our motors are large in diameter and thus can't have such a high RPM as small inrunner BLDC motors, for example. Plus, (my speculation here, but seems logical) the speed controllers have a harder job in EUC's case, as it has to be in precise control of the motor's position at all times to keep us balanced, whereas in scooters it's essentially a throttle.

[The Brahan Seer]

2 hours ago, Censored Truth said:

Just look at other PEVs like E-Skateboards, eBike (mopeds), and E-Scooters.

Unlike your examples above EUC's don't have any gear, so there is no elephant in the room. The only way to increase speed is with voltage, we have no cogs to help*.

https://www.theengineeringchoice.com/what-is-gear-ratio-and-how-to-calculate-a-gear-ratio/#:~:text=It seems that the gear,this is a simple calculation.

https://www.kmpdrivetrain.com/final-drive/why-change-your-final-drive/#:~:text=A lower (taller) gear ratio,CWP) or ring and pinion.

 

*yet (is it even worth the hassle to try)

 

[Rawnei]

3 hours ago, Censored Truth said:

The big elephant in the room in regards to "Volt Wars" is: We should be able to go 60-70+ mph on 84 Volts. We don't need higher voltage.

 

Just look at other PEVs like E-Skateboards, eBike (mopeds), and E-Scooters. That's proof.

The fastest, most powerful production scooters (Emove Roadster, InMotion RS) are only 72 - 84 volts and 1000 - 2000 watts, but can go between 68 - 80 mph.

The Highest Powered Surron Storm Bee is only 104 Volts, 10,000 Watts and go 68 mph. other Surrons are only like 60 - 72 Volts and still can go 50+ mph.

The Raith E-skateboard is 40 Volts and 8000 watts peak, and can go 81 mph. 

 

These EUC companies have made us believe falsely that we need 134 - 168 volts to go 60+ mph. The reality is we have not reached the full potential of 84 volt EUCs. A 168 Volt wheel should easily go 100+ WITH a RIDER ON IT. There is no need for 200 volt EUCs. The EUC makers should Maximize the Volts we already have like other PEV makers

Either these EUC Makers (1)don't know how to use the full potential of the Voltage and Wattage power, (2) Or they limited the power (Hint InMotion can Unlock 60 mph on V13) or (3) They are lying about the Volts and Watts specs (A 50 Watt Chinese Speaker is not as loud as a 20 Watt Sony or JBL Speaker) or (4) China Metrics is different from the rest of the world (A Large Shirt in China is like a Medium in the United States, and their shoe sizes are a size smaller)...

Whatever it is we not getting the full capabilities of the specs (Volts and Watts) they sell us. But they sell the EUCs at full price of the specs listed on paper. There shouldn't be "Volts Wars". They should use the full capabilities of what we already have. We have been misled.

A self balancing vehicle requires more power to stay balanced, it's not enough to just spin the motor and propel forward like a bike, voltage on an EUC is directly related to speed thus your thesis of what you should be able to do with 84V just isn't true and that is why 84V EUC's are barely produced anymore.

[slippyfeet]

If anything there should be a weight-savings war coming into the picture now with the Sherman L and Blitz leading that turn. In my opinion Inmotion needs a lighter V14 asap, because if LeaperKim makes a 70lb hall-less Patton, that would pretty much wipe out other current wheels in the segment.

[InfiniteWheelie]

Voltage is not the only way to increase speed. Motors can be wound to go the same speed or even higher with lower voltage.

[Rawnei]

32 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Voltage is not the only way to increase speed. Motors can be wound to go the same speed or even higher with lower voltage.

With higher voltage we get both high speed and high torque, best of two worlds.

[xiiijojjo]

On 7/30/2024 at 7:29 PM, Anthraksi said:

I don't think the spec wars are ending before we reach 200v.

I've been saying this for years: Once we reach roughly 120km/h (top speed in most of the world except for the autobahn and a handful of other places) the voltage race will conclude for a long time, while the manufacturers start honing in on features, quality, QC, safety, weight saving, better battery, price wars etc. 

Hopefully they revive a few abandoned features too.

Edited August 13 by xiiijojjo

[InfiniteWheelie]

11 hours ago, Rawnei said:

With higher voltage we get both high speed and high torque, best of two worlds.

Not true. More/better cells are what provide more torque and power.

You can get the same torque/speed out of a 100v battery as a 200v battery, it just depends how you wind the motor.

Edited August 13 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Not true. More/better cells are what provide more torque and power.

You can get the same torque/speed out of a 100v battery as a 200v battery, it just depends how you wind the motor.

You are referring to the kv metric, (rpm per volt)?

For the same motor, you can get the same torque but high free spin speed, if you drive it with a higher voltage.

[InfiniteWheelie]

40 minutes ago, techyiam said:

You are referring to the kv metric, (rpm per volt)?

For the same motor, you can get the same torque but high free spin speed, if you drive it with a higher voltage.

No, you won’t get the same torque. It’s a 1:1 tradeoff between speed and torque. If you wind it for double the speed, you get half the torque. It’s basically electronic gearing.

[techyiam]

58 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

No, you won’t get the same torque. It’s a 1:1 tradeoff between speed and torque. If you wind it for double the speed, you get half the torque. It’s basically electronic gearing.

I am talking about using the same motor, but with higher voltage. 

[InfiniteWheelie]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I am talking about using the same motor, but with higher voltage. 

The same motor, with the same type and amount of cells, but rearranged to a produce higher voltage, will not produce more torque.

If you mean adding more cells to the battery pack to increase the voltage, of course that produces more power. However, so would adding more in parallel. More cells = more power.

Edited August 14 by InfiniteWheelie

[techyiam]

14 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

The same motor, with the same type and amount of cells, but rearranged to a produce higher voltage, will not produce more torque.

If you mean adding more cells to the battery pack to increase the voltage, of course that produces more power. However, so would adding more in parallel. More cells = more power.

Strawman Fallacy. 

[InfiniteWheelie]

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Strawman Fallacy. 

The original quote I replied to said: “With higher voltage we get both high speed and high torque, best of two worlds.”

Thats not true without adding more cells. It’s also not true if you wind the motor differently. A lot of people don’t understand this.

[Tomallo]

2 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

The original quote I replied to said: “With higher voltage we get both high speed and high torque, best of two worlds.”

Thats not true without adding more cells. It’s also not true if you wind the motor differently. A lot of people don’t understand this.

Okay, but what about this: we wind the motor for higher speed. But due to having lower torque, we can't do a proper emergency braking now, so the wheel is unsafe. I think high enough torque is essential for this (safety) reason.

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

The original quote I replied to said: “With higher voltage we get both high speed and high torque, best of two worlds.”

Thats not true without adding more cells. It’s also not true if you wind the motor differently. A lot of people don’t understand this.

This was the context. 

17 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Voltage is not the only way to increase speed. Motors can be wound to go the same speed or even higher with lower voltage.

 

16 hours ago, Rawnei said:

With higher voltage we get both high speed and high torque, best of two worlds.

 

It makes no sense to bring up restriction on the number of cells. 

A manufacturer is free to decide on the voltage, and the number of cells.

 

But even if the number of cells is a restriction, and the number of cells is sufficient, a higher voltage can still benefit, using high discharge cells like Samsung 50S.

151.2 V, 6 P (36s6p)=>  3996 Wh, 216 cells.

VS

226.8 V, 4P (54s4p)=> 3996 Wh, 216 cells.

[Rawnei]

What on earth, this discussion sure took a turn.

To reach more voltage you need more cells in serial, how is that even up for debate.

Running motor wound for torque at higher voltage we can achieve higher RPM, that is how modern 134-168V wheels have both high speed and high torque because they are using torque motor at higher voltage = more rpm = more speed, you get both torque and speed.

[Censored Truth]

On 8/12/2024 at 1:11 AM, The Brahan Seer said:

Unlike your examples above EUC's don't have any gear, so there is no elephant in the room. The only way to increase speed is with voltage, we have no cogs to help*.

https://www.theengineeringchoice.com/what-is-gear-ratio-and-how-to-calculate-a-gear-ratio/#:~:text=It seems that the gear,this is a simple calculation.

https://www.kmpdrivetrain.com/final-drive/why-change-your-final-drive/#:~:text=A lower (taller) gear ratio,CWP) or ring and pinion.

 

*yet (is it even worth the hassle to try)

 

Your comment is way off subject and so are the article/blog links you posted. Those 2 articles are talking about cars, not PEVs. 

No PEV has gears, they have riding modes, this includes EUC. And No PEV has Ring and Pinion

On 8/12/2024 at 1:56 AM, Rawnei said:

A self balancing vehicle requires more power to stay balanced, it's not enough to just spin the motor and propel forward like a bike, voltage on an EUC is directly related to speed thus your thesis of what you should be able to do with 84V just isn't true and that is why 84V EUC's are barely produced anymore.

False on EUCs requires more power to stay balanced. An EUC do not burn any voltage by simply Self Balancing. The voltage is used by riding the EUC not simply Self Balancing. 

Also the MTen Mini and the Inmotion V5 is pretty much the same specs (speed and range), V5 is a little more spec...Yet the MTen Mini is 42 Volts and V5 is 84. By your logic of power to stay balanced they should be the same voltage and not have a 40 volt difference. 

On 8/14/2024 at 1:49 AM, Rawnei said:

What on earth, this discussion sure took a turn.

To reach more voltage you need more cells in serial, how is that even up for debate.

Running motor wound for torque at higher voltage we can achieve higher RPM, that is how modern 134-168V wheels have both high speed and high torque because they are using torque motor at higher voltage = more rpm = more speed, you get both torque and speed.

This discussion is still on subject, it is still discussion specs and/or spec wars. However it is exposed the lie you need all these volts and watts to ride 60 -70 mph. So you think the subject took a turn.

Someone mentioned in this chat a 200Volt wheel and My response was, We don't need 200 Volt Wheels because we have not reached full potential of lower voltage wheels. The ET Max Spins at 111 mph and the GT Pro spins at 125 mph...the ONLY Reason these wheels can go Max 60 - 70 MPH is because the EUC Makers are limiting the speed and power of the wheel. Those wheel should be able to ride 90 - 100 mph WITH a Rider on them. The only reason someone would a 200 volt wheel is because they think they need those volts to go 90+ mph...but we already have wheels to do that, the EUC companies are simply limit the power, speed that they give us. Inmotion have it where you have to ride over 1200 miles on the V13Pro to unlock 62 MPH...that right there is proof they limit the capabilities that these EUCs can do. The power is already there, but they not giving it to us

It is clear these companies are holding back the full capabilities of the power of these wheels. They are clearly CHARGING US for Specifications they are NOT GIVING us. The fact these companies can CAP the MAX SPEED of these EUCs and UNLOCK HIGHER SPEEDs show we are not getting the full capability of the Voltage and Wattage they are selling us. 

Imagine a Pizza company advertise a Extra Large Pizza, You Buy a Extra Large Pizza in a Extra Large box, but when you get home and open the box it is only a 6 inch personal pan pizza inside...This is the same that EUC companies are doing. They get us excited over High Voltage, Wattage and High Free Spin Speed, and price the EUC on those specs, but give half of those specs to use and enjoy.