Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Winter months are over and my wheel overheats all the time now. Not when i ride on horizontal surface with constant speed, but as soon as i start getting creative, the wheel overheats every 5-10 minutes. I like to move to slow music coming out of the wheel , sort of like slow dancing, and its just so embarrasing to have to get off e wheel when you are deep in the moment and everyone around is looking at you. If i could resolve this one issue, my riding experience would otherwise be perfect. So i am thinking of simple ways to cool the wheel without inviting the water to come in. Which way do you guys think would be the best? Or maybe some other way? 1. Simply make several small diameter holes on top of casing to let some of the heat vent out. Holes would need to be plugged in case of rain, so i could come up with round rubber plugs 2. Make one or more openings on top of casing . In case of rain place a plate to cover the openings. Perhaps the plate should always be on top and be made of a metal wothh high heat transfer rate which shoukd help heat sink the heat to the outside. A rubber gasket could be placed around the perimeter of the plate to seal for the water ingress. 3 install small piece of piping with small hoods ( for rain) connected to the holes on top of casing in order to route the outside air and force it to come in. Another hole can be nade somewhere in the casing to let the air cirlutae and not create possitive air pressure inside 4. Find some space inside ( which is not easy) and install a small small either powere externally or connected to the motherboard, say in lieu of the rear light. Voltage has to match of course the voltage used on the control board 5. Make a hole on top of casing equal to the footprint of a small fan, and install the fan on top of it which will draw the air out. Make a hole somewhere else in the casing to allow for air circulation 6. Solder a metal plate placed vertically on top and at edge and at 90degrees to the control board. Make hole to let the plate penetrate the casing. Waterprrof penetration. Now, on top of case where the plate sticks out, similarly solder another plate ( horizontally, at 90 degres) which will lay flat on top of casing and serve as an additional heatsink Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 A lot of it would depend on how much space you have to work with. I'm not familiar with the KS14 layout or control board so it's hard to say. Can you install a plate on the *inside* of the case, facing the wheel? It could be well sealed so although it was exposed to water and dirt it wouldn't get near the board. Finally if you want silent cooling it would be interesting to try incorporating a Peltier to move the heat away quickly, but you'd need a 12v source and most likely want some type of thermostatic control. They're not expensive but the dimensions may not be easy to find for this application. http://www.amazon.com/TEC1-12706-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Cooler-Volt/dp/B002UQQ3Q2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 There was already a cooling mod for a Kingsong mentioned around here? With an aluminium plate brought outside and at the inside connected to the heatsink? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardmech Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Drill holes in the case and run heatpipes, solder them to the heatsink and glue the holes to stop water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 The design of the mainboard need to be changed. There's some inefficient setup or the programming of the mosfets are weak. Using heat pipe deals with transferring heat away from the source and not prevent the rise of he heat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Hey @Cloud, after your overheating info, I started to hesitate what to choose between KS14 and KS16, as the late one has a cooling fan. What would your choice be if you had to make it now? I'd appreciate other guys opinions too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 45 minutes ago, DS said: Hey @Cloud, after your overheating info, I started to hesitate what to choose between KS14 and KS16, as the late one has a cooling fan. What would your choice be if you had to make it now? I'd appreciate other guys opinions too I only have my KS 14 for 4-5 weeks now...but i am commuting to work every day now and the weather is not really cold. And i have some really, really hard climbs for the wheel on the way to work...... I have not have ONE temperature issue in this time AND i am hard over 90kg ...with clothes 95 kg... But other than that...if i have to choose now...i would take a KS16 also :-) Its a winner with its integrated handle and formfactor!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Here in Miami I commute 7.5 miles each way on my KS14C. What I've found is that the ambient temperature & riding style has an massive effect on the heat build-up. Typically if the temperature is around <30°C/86°F I can get away with cruising at 29kph average speed without overheating. When the outside temperature is above 30°C, I have to reduce the speed, otherwise I get the tilt-back overheating into about 70% of the journey. The upside is that it doesn't take very long to shed 10°C in the control-board & continue on with my journey, but I agree it's still a pain in the a**. I have an outstanding task to connect up the eLogger with a temperature probe & try to capture this temperature increase. In the early prototype of the KS16 there were no additional measures taken to reduce heat build-up—a lot of hope is riding on the the inclusion of the CB fan making a difference, results will be demonstrated next week, when I receive the first evaluation 16". Over the weekend I'm also going take apart one of the latest boards in the 14C to see exactly what type of MOSFET these contain. Here's a stock photo of the CB, but I'm not able to find a corresponding IRF MOSFET that matches B3287(?)... Once again, @esaj has led the way in identifying a component with an incredible lower level of resistance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: Over the weekend I'm also going take apart one of the latest boards in the 14C to see exactly what type of MOSFET these contain. Here's a stock photo of the CB, but I'm not able to find a corresponding IRF MOSFET that matches B3287(?)... Here you go (it looks like it's B3207, not 3287): http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/irfs3207.pdf It's already pretty low resistance with Rds(on) of 3.6-4.5 milliohms. Didn't take further look in the datasheet, as I'm currently in the middle of something (a project delayed not because of me, but now that I finally got what I needed to get on with it, I want to get this done as far as possible...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 6 hours ago, dmethvin said: A lot of it would depend on how much space you have to work with. I'm not familiar with the KS14 layout or control board so it's hard to say. Can you install a plate on the *inside* of the case, facing the wheel? It could be well sealed so although it was exposed to water and dirt it wouldn't get near the board. Finally if you want silent cooling it would be interesting to try incorporating a Peltier to move the heat away quickly, but you'd need a 12v source and most likely want some type of thermostatic control. They're not expensive but the dimensions may not be easy to find for this application. http://www.amazon.com/TEC1-12706-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Cooler-Volt/dp/B002UQQ3Q2 Thank you. Not much room inside . The existing heat sink is already at bottom of control board facing the wheel chamber. interesting Peltier cooler, i dont believe the CB has 12 v thhought, i believe its 5v..i need to find out. 3 hours ago, DS said: Hey @Cloud, after your overheating info, I started to hesitate what to choose between KS14 and KS16, as the late one has a cooling fan. What would your choice be if you had to make it now? I'd appreciate other guys opinions too i have not ridden the 16" so i cant comment on the overheating. They are supposed to have incorporated a fan in 16" so presumably its better. How much do you weigh ? It depends on the weight and the riding style whether you will have a problem with 14" overheating or not. I still love my 14" and i think its a must have for the most agile riding or for the compact size. But i cant have a full comparison before i get to ride the 16 ". On the other hand If i didnt have a wheel now, id go for 16" just because its the most universal size , its something new to try and it has a more attractive aesthetic design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 3 hours ago, KingSong69 said: I only have my KS 14 for 4-5 weeks now...but i am commuting to work every day now and the weather is not really cold. And i have some really, really hard climbs for the wheel on the way to work...... I have not have ONE temperature issue in this time AND i am hard over 90kg ...with clothes 95 kg... But other than that...if i have to choose now...i would take a KS16 also :-) Its a winner with its integrated handle and formfactor!!!! This is not surprising that you havent had an issue. first of all the difference between 100kg and 90kg is a big difference. Second,if you ride at pretty much constant speeds and your accelerations and braking are not frequent, the wheel will not overheat. Also if your riding sessions are short, or you make stoos, the wheel will not have time to overheat. is this your first wheel or not? If first wheel, it will not overheat in the first 4-5 weeks of learning to ride. When people start to learn their riding style is normally very mild with slow accelerations and not conducive to much overheating. If you are thinking that my wheel is defective, it is not so. All of the 3. 14" ihad owned had overheated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 2 hours ago, Jason McNeil said: Here in Miami I commute 7.5 miles each way on my KS14C. What I've found is that the ambient temperature & riding style has an massive effect on the heat build-up. Typically if the temperature is around <30°C/86°F I can get away with cruising at 29kph average speed without overheating. When the outside temperature is above 30°C, I have to reduce the speed, otherwise I get the tilt-back overheating into about 70% of the journey. The upside is that it doesn't take very long to shed 10°C in the control-board & continue on with my journey, but I agree it's still a pain in the a**. I have an outstanding task to connect up the eLogger with a temperature probe & try to capture this temperature increase. In the early prototype of the KS16 there were no additional measures taken to reduce heat build-up—a lot of hope is riding on the the inclusion of the CB fan making a difference, results will be demonstrated next week, when I receive the first evaluation 16". Over the weekend I'm also going take apart one of the latest boards in the 14C to see exactly what type of MOSFET these contain. Here's a stock photo of the CB, but I'm not able to find a corresponding IRF MOSFET that matches B3287(?)... Once again, @esaj has led the way in identifying a component with an incredible lower level of resistance. What affects the overheating the most is not so much how high the speed is but , like you said, the riding style. interestingly enough, the wheel overheats faster when i am going at slower speeds than when i ride faster ( if a certain riding style is employed) Didnt really have an issue when the temps were below 0 C in the winter but once rose above 0, I started noticing occasional episodes of overheating The temperatures in nyc right now around 45 F or 7 C and the wheel overheats often once i start slowly moving to the music on it. These slow moves are very smooth but do include riding in semi circles, rather than a straight line, as i move along while my body tilts at an angke to the pavament. While these moves are intended to resemble slow dancing, they do involve temporary accelerations and slowing down even though the speeds are very low. When i ride faster, even when i accelerate and brake to the music, i experience fewer overheating episodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 8 minutes ago, Cloud said: as i move along while my body tilts at an angke to the pavament. While these moves are intended to resemble slow dancing, You've got to upload a video of these syncopated gyrations on the Wheel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: You've got to upload a video of these sycophantic gyrations on the Wheel Lol, i will try to get someone to tape me its not as physcopathic as it sounds interesting that yesterday on two separate occasions two people saw me riding and yelled to me : What's wrong with you?? I was quick to respond : my cholesterol is a little high... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 No, i Never thought your wheel is defective...or Not going to believe what you Said.... i just Wanted to Share !my! Experience...User @DS asked for it!.... and: i didn't Know you Are heavier than me :-) but my softie-beginner-learning riding Style is over....i am super Hard fastening...and Braking and Almost The whole Time dancing...like you Do... so...but Perhaps it Are just The 10kg and a colder weather...that my wheel does Not get to hot..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 Dooh, mean't syncopated not sycophantic, too funny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 6 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: No, i Never thought your wheel is defective...or Not going to believe what you Said.... i just Wanted to Share !my! Experience...User @DS asked for it!.... and: i didn't Know you Are heavier than me :-) but my softie-beginner-learning riding Style is over....i am super Hard fastening...and Braking and Almost The whole Time dancing...like you Do... so...but Perhaps it Are just The 10kg and a colder weather...that my wheel does Not get to hot..... Yes this definitely is part of the reason. Also its hard to compare the riding styles and their effects on overheating. Your fpriding style may be rougher than mine but can have less effect on overheating. Riding faster doesnt necessarily cause it to overheat more. When riding slower, one has more opportunity to accelerate faster than when riding faster. Not easy to compare. 3 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: Dooh, mean't syncopated not sycophantic, too funny It might be both, but people seem to like watching me ride anyway:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 48 minutes ago, Cloud said: How much do you weigh ? 73kg clothed 51 minutes ago, Cloud said: On the other hand If i didnt have a wheel now, id go for 16" just because its the most universal size , its something new to try and it has a more attractive aesthetic design. Well said, so more and more I'm inclined towards KS16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 8, 2016 Author Share Posted April 8, 2016 20 minutes ago, DS said: 73kg clothed Well said, so more and more I'm inclined towards KS16 Sure , go for it, but at 73kg you will be hard pressed to make a 14" overheat. Id venture to say it will be virtually impossible unless you are on a steep incline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted April 8, 2016 Share Posted April 8, 2016 If you're going to open it up, please do take some photos and post them up as it's hard to say without seeing how it's put together. I do remember someone posting a mod where they drilled holes up top of the main box and mounted a metal plate on top for cooling somehow. Maybe search through the threads for that mod... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checho Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 it is hills that cause overheating, on my ks18 it overheats going approx a 10 degree slope, I weigh 110kg, on such a hill going at slow speed I was drawing 50 to 55A based on the android app. ( the fuse it is rated at 40A and did not burn the fuse), under such conditions I have exceeded 60C in a short time which is something that should be avoided. I am not sure what mosfets are being used on the ks18 but they seem to be very sensitive to heat and amps. Earlier in the post Esaj posted it was mosfet B3207 but he was referring to the 14C, for the ks18 not sure if it uses the same mosfet or not. I am working on a solution to this problem using heat sinks, I was thinking on putting a fan but there is not a lot of space for that, and most fans are rated for 12V, maybe getting power from the usb port would work but I have not seen any small fans rated for 5V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 1 hour ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: If you're going to open it up, please do take some photos and post them up as it's hard to say without seeing how it's put together. I do remember someone posting a mod where they drilled holes up top of the main box and mounted a metal plate on top for cooling somehow. Maybe search through the threads for that mod... I vaguely remember that picture also. Putting the plate on top and drilling is easy but the difficult part will be connecting to the CB inside, i think i should look for a simpler solution. I should have some photos of the inside and will take more. As i need to open the wheel anyway - i just ounctured the tire 1 hour ago, checho said: it is hills that cause overheating, on my ks18 it overheats going approx a 10 degree slope, I weigh 110kg, on such a hill going at slow speed I was drawing 50 to 55A based on the android app. ( the fuse it is rated at 40A and did not burn the fuse), under such conditions I have exceeded 60C in a short time which is something that should be avoided. I am not sure what mosfets are being used on the ks18 but they seem to be very sensitive to heat and amps. Earlier in the post Esaj posted it was mosfet B3207 but he was referring to the 14C, for the ks18 not sure if it uses the same mosfet or not. I am working on a solution to this problem using heat sinks, I was thinking on putting a fan but there is not a lot of space for that, and most fans are rated for 12V, maybe getting power from the usb port would work but I have not seen any small fans rated for 5V. Well, in your case its the incline that is causing it. Anything that overloads the motor or the battery. Actually upyou can easily overheat in a atter of a coupke of minutes just by standing still in one spot on a sloped surface the more i think about this the more i favor simpler, less invasive solutions . What about a square hole on top, say 1.5 inch side, and a cover which can close the hole incase of rain, but when no rain can pivot on one edge up 45degrees so as to direct the incoming air inside the casing? Its very easy to install - simple and must be effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Here's the zlymex's post with the metal plate on top etc: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 2 hours ago, esaj said: Here's the zlymex's post with the metal plate on top etc: Thanks @esaj. Well its easier to place the plate on too of the18 " casing than the 14. And there is more room there, both on top and inside. It is still not clear if the plate on top was connected with the internal heat sink or not. id like to know where the temperature sensor is located and ehat it looks like. Ive asked kingsong this question many times but they never answered Need to make sure its not somehow i side the motor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 4 minutes ago, Cloud said: Thanks @esaj. Well its easier to place the plate on too of the18 " casing than the 14. And there is more room there, both on top and inside. It is still not clear if the plate on top was connected with the internal heat sink or not. id like to know where the temperature sensor is located and ehat it looks like. Ive asked kingsong this question many times but they never answered Need to make sure its not somehow i side the motor At least on Gotways, I have a suspicion that they actually use the temperature-sensor inside the MPU-6050! But don't know for sure, the reason I suspect that is that the MPU6050 gives out the temperature reading in exactly the same binary format as it is represented in the (older) Gotway-protocol. EDIT: To clarify, MPU6050 is the 6-axis gyroscope/accelerometer-chip many wheels use to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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