Airwheel Q3 doesn't start / Power Socket problem / Power Button problem

[bego1969]

Since a month I have an new airwheel Q3 and it just started to really make fun. 

Two days ago, after charging it the fifth time, I made a short test in my apartment, and everything was still fine (battery full, four LEDs on), I could test ride it around my living room table. 

But next morning I could NOT start it anymore. Power Button always jumps out (jumps back) directly. The Powerbutton doesn't stay in the "on" position anymore. 

When holding/pressing down the power button with my finger, my airwheel balances and shows full battery (4 red LEDs burning). When taking away my finger, it stops immediately and falls over. See video below. 

Also tried to start it when laying on the left or the ride aside. Then again in normal position. Nothing helped. 

And then I also recharged until charger was green. No change. Can't get my Q3 started again. 

Does anyone had the same problem and knows a solution? 

Bought the Q3 by theairwheel.com UK

Will try to get in contact with them after Easter holidays... 

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard 

 

MVI_0205.MP4

[MetricUSA]

Just sounds like a bad switch, if in will not stay in 'on' position... I don't believe it acts like a circuit breaker, just a switch... That corner of yours looks pretty banged up...

[bego1969]

Thanks for your answer. No, the corner is not banged up very much. Just to protect the corners, cause I'm a beginner, I have put some foam rubber under gaffertape at some sides of my Q3. Looks not that good, but protects. 

Greetings 

Bernhard 

 

[Keith]

4 hours ago, bego1969 said:

Since a month I have an new airwheel Q3 and it just started to really make fun. 

Two days ago, after charging it the fifth time, I made a short test in my apartment, and everything was still fine (battery full, four LEDs on), I could test ride it around my living room table. 

But next morning I could NOT start it anymore. Power Button always jumps out (jumps back) directly. The Powerbutton doesn't stay in the "on" position anymore. 

When holding/pressing down the power button with my finger, my airwheel balances and shows full battery (4 red LEDs burning). When taking away my finger, it stops immediately and falls over. See video below. 

Also tried to start it when laying on the left or the ride aside. Then again in normal position. Nothing helped. 

And then I also recharged until charger was green. No change. Can't get my Q3 started again. 

Does anyone had the same problem and knows a solution? 

Bought the Q3 by theairwheel.com UK

Will try to get in contact with them after Easter holidays... 

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard 

 

MVI_0205.MP4

This sounds like exactly the same problem I had with my KingSong 14C a couple of weeks after I purchased it. If I pressed the button enough times it would eventually latch but was getting more and more unreliable. If the button is the same design as on the KS it has to latch down and that latching mechanism has failed I.e. It turns on when you press it then off when you release it.

Fortunately I bought the wheel from @Jason McNeil who quickly arranged for his mechanic to change the switch for me. The replacement switch has been fine ever since.

The button on the KS was on a lead and plug that goes into the main board, if the Airwheel is the same it should be easy enough to change yourself if you can get a replacement sent to you, other than that, a failure like is a warranty issue and your supplier should honour a repair or replacement.

[bego1969]

Thanks for your answer. Did you get the same power switch as you had before as replacement? Or another type of power button? 

I don't understand that companies use such power switchs for electric unicycles... Just a button would be better than a switch that has to lock after pressing it down. There's  always a little fear that it unlocks when riding... 

Would love it when there would be an alternate power "button" available, that only has to be pressed shortly and that has not to lock in "on" position... 

Replacement will take some time in my case, cause seller is located in UK and I am in Germany. 

But www.theairwheel.com had the Q3 (with 340Wh battery)  for 349pounds on sale and that was a really good price.  If I would have paid normal price, I would be still more angry after 4 weeks of using my Q3 and having this trouble now... Especially now that I have holidays and can't use it :-(

Greetings 

Bernhard 

[Keith]

49 minutes ago, bego1969 said:

Thanks for your answer. Did you get the same power switch as you had before as replacement? Or another type of power button? 

I don't understand that companies use such power switchs for electric unicycles... Just a button would be better than a switch that has to lock after pressing it down. There's  always a little fear that it unlocks when riding... 

Would love it when there would be an alternate power "button" available, that only has to be pressed shortly and that has not to lock in "on" position... 

Yes replacement switch is exactly the same, looks like original was faulty in manufacture.

One or two makes do use 'soft' switches, the Inmotion V3C for example. There is always a danger a button might get pressed accidentally and power down unexpectedly; at least these switches are recessed and hard to operate by accident.

I personally would prefer a good solid on/off switch preferably an old fashioned DPDT toggle switch with power paralleled through both poles so as I was sure it was on when it should be and off when it should be. If mine fails again in the future I might just replace it with one.

Even when my switch was starting to go faulty though, and I was worried it might suddenly switch off going over a bump, it never did, once it locked on it seemed well locked.

[Sky Rover]

Never even thought of this happening before, I do enjoy how easy it is to flip the switch on the Q3 though.. perhaps could swap out for a rocker switch if the current one loosens over time.. I feel like this is most likely an issue if your unicycle has tumbled around a bit. wear and tear is a depressing but inevitable result of riding, learning & falling

[RANX]

This is a very serious PROBLEM, I had this switch FAIL as I was moving, The Wheel went straight out from underneath me End Over end down the path at least 15 meters,

luckily no one else was in front of me as it would have caused serious damage, to anyone in front, or even killed a small child.

This even rates a possible product recall

My machine was a Airwheel (Australian X8)

[bego1969]

@RANX

That's not good to hear and makes it still harder to trust these devices again... 

What my Q3 concerns, Airwheel UK is sending me a replacement unit, must arrive today. 

Took me a lot of emails to get this done. I would have accepted repairing the Powerbutton (replacing it with a new one,...)  But maybe it was not only the Powerbutton. Or they weren't able to change the Powerbutton...  So they offered me a replacement unit by themselves. 

But probably the new Q3 will have  the same (old)  Powerbutton again (I will tell you). 

 

 

[Chriull]

On 24.3.2016 at 7:18 PM, bego1969 said:

...I don't understand that companies use such power switchs for electric unicycles... Just a button would be better than a switch that has to lock after pressing it down. There's  always a little fear that it unlocks when riding... 

Would love it when there would be an alternate power "button" available, that only has to be pressed shortly and that has not to lock in "on" position... 

...

 

On 24.3.2016 at 8:07 PM, Keith said:

...One or two makes do use 'soft' switches, the Inmotion V3C for example. There is always a danger a button might get pressed accidentally and power down unexpectedly; at least these switches are recessed and hard to operate by accident.

Also ninebot and the new KS16 have buttons - hard to reach by accident and you also have to press them quite some time for power off...

On 24.3.2016 at 8:07 PM, Keith said:

I personally would prefer a good solid on/off switch preferably an old fashioned DPDT toggle switch with power paralleled through both poles so as I was sure it was on when it should be and off when it should be. If mine fails again in the future I might just replace it with one.

Nice idea - and there should be enough real high quality switches available...

[Keith]

4 hours ago, RANX said:

This is a very serious PROBLEM, I had this switch FAIL as I was moving, The Wheel went straight out from underneath me End Over end down the path at least 15 meters,

luckily no one else was in front of me as it would have caused serious damage, to anyone in front, or even killed a small child.

This even rates a possible product recall

My machine was a Airwheel (Australian X8)

Are you absolutely sure the switch failed in use?

To be honest I would think that would be very very unusual and it certainly isn't one of my fears whilst riding. However Airwheels are known for their less than perfect BMS (Battery Management System) It has been known to shut down the battery at low voltage and/or high current see both the big yellow front page warning at Electric Unicycle Reveiws here: http://electricunicyclereviews.com and then go on to read their review of the X8 (link on the above page)

If the BMS shut down the switch would have still been latched and you would either have had to press it once to unlatch it and a second time to turn the wheel back on or you would need to plug it into a charger before it powered up again. If the switch had failed I would expect it to be quite difficult to get it to latch I.e. You would press it, the wheel would power up, you take your finger off of it the wheel powers down again.

The fact that you were moving fast on the wheel when it failed does suggest a BMS failure. I assume the wheel was unpowered after the event and didn't beep at all after you had fallen off of it?

[lizardmech]

10 hours ago, RANX said:

This is a very serious PROBLEM, I had this switch FAIL as I was moving, The Wheel went straight out from underneath me End Over end down the path at least 15 meters,

luckily no one else was in front of me as it would have caused serious damage, to anyone in front, or even killed a small child.

This even rates a possible product recall

My machine was a Airwheel (Australian X8)

I don't think the switch failing can shut it down, the power doesn't flow through it, it just sends a signal to the mainboard when pressed. If it failed while ridding it would be stuck on rather than power cutting out.

This could be an issue for ones that wont turn on as well, the button may be fine but the power switch mechanism on the board may have failed.

[RANX]

Hi Keith

thanks for the reply

read your links, didn't sound like a PMS problem, Read:-

OK yes I am sure that the switch did fail (unlatch)

as I had two failures, that happened just after I had turned it on, and just hoped on it,

I was a bit worried but though that maybe I hadn't pressed the switch properly,

so was a bit reluctant to hop back on for a while

Finally decided I needed to know If it was just the switch, or me not pressing it in firmly enough.

so went for a ride one more time, I had travelled at least 2 KMs this time, when as I said it just went free-wheel,

and luckily I was on a very gradual downward slope and I was able to step off and stay upright

AND yes when the power button unlatches, it cuts all the power off to the unit and free-wheels

Also this was on a full charge, so it had nothing to do with the Power management System, kicking in to protect against low power

So I am now too scared to ride it any more, as this was lucky that it happened on a gradual slope, with no other pedestrians,

if I had hit someone, this could have been much more serious

SO to SUM up not a PMS failure, as it was off when I picked it up, and it made no sounds when it failed.

Just free-wheeled and went from under me with no possibility to control it

 

 

13 hours ago, lizardmech said:

I don't think the switch failing can shut it down, the power doesn't flow through it, it just sends a signal to the mainboard when pressed. If it failed while ridding it would be stuck on rather than power cutting out.

This could be an issue for ones that wont turn on as well, the button may be fine but the power switch mechanism on the board may have failed.

Well on the Airwheels at least it is a Latching switch, (pretty stupid idea really)

so when it unlatches it switches OFF.

[lizardmech]

Are you sure the latching is mechanical, the other brands are electronically latching types where the button itself has no on or off position. BMS cuts also turn the unit off completely.

[Keith]

8 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

Are you sure the latching is mechanical, the other brands are electronically latching types where the button itself has no on or off position. BMS cuts also turn the unit off completely.

No they are not all electronically latching, in fact read back to the beginning of this thread. Both Airwheel and KingSong have push on / push off latching mechanical switches and I'm sure they are not the only ones. 

1 hour ago, RANX said:

AND yes when the power button unlatches, it cuts all the power off to the unit and free-wheels

Also this was on a full charge, so it had nothing to do with the Power management System, kicking in to protect against low power

SO to SUM up not a PMS failure, as it was off when I picked it up, and it made no sounds when it failed.

@RANX, I would agree that the evidence does suggest this was the switch unlatching but your other two statements are wrong.

BMS cut out at low voltage OR high current so are just as likely to cut out with a full battery, for example hitting a bump at high speed can cause a sudden current surge that is enough to trip it. Indeed possibly more so as braking or going down hill with a full battery may cause it to cut out due to the regenerative braking voltage having nowhere to go.

If the BMS cuts power the wheel will be off when you pick it up as the BMS has shut down the battery, this also means that there may be no beeping as the BMS does not give any warnings. The only clue it is a BMS failure would be that the power switch would be still latched on.

[bego1969]

When I am reading that the BMS cuts down the power totally when battery is full for preventing an overcharging through riding the device,  I really can't understand why there is not only an electronic cut off that stops only the recharging (when  battery is full). Actually that is a requirement and should be a must in such a device! Every charger stops when battery is full. 

[Keith]

51 minutes ago, bego1969 said:

When I am reading that the BMS cuts down the power totally when battery is full for preventing an overcharging through riding the device,  I really can't understand why there is not only an electronic cut off that stops only the recharging (when  battery is full). Actually that is a requirement and should be a must in such a device! Every charger stops when battery is full. 

@bego1969, that is exactly the point and why BMS issues come up so much in this forum. 

To summerise what has been discussed in detail many times:

In an electric vehicle other than a self balancing device the BMS has four distinct functions all of which are designed to protect the battery.

1) the BMS monitors each battery cell and ensures that all are held at the same voltage during charging (called "balancing").

2) the BMS prevents any cell going above the maximum voltage (typically 4.2v for Lithium Ion & Lithium Polymer cells)

3) the BMS prevents excessive current from being delivered (for example perhaps as a result of a short circuit.)

4) the BMS prevents the battery voltage from getting too low which would permanently damage the cells (some may even monitor  each cell and cut power if any one is too low)

all four of these are critical for not only keeping the cells in good condition but also for safety as a powerful fire could occur in extreme cases.

HOWEVER IN A SELF BALANCING DEVICE RIDER SAFETY, NOT BATTERY SAFETY, IS THE PRIME CONCERN

1) and 2) above are critical BMS functions in any BMS and must happen during charging. 

3) and 4) plus also 2) when the wheel is being ridden (I.e. High voltage due to regenerative braking)  MUST BE handled by the control board on the wheel which should force the rider to slow down or stop (tilt back, beeps, etc). The BMS MUST do no more than send an alert to the main control board for that to handle the problem.

Unfortunately, some EUC manufacturers appear to use "off the shelf" BMS designed for electric bikes, scooters, etc. where all 4 functions are handled by the BMS. It's way of handling the situation in 3) and 4), also possibly 2) is to cut power completely. A safe enough thing to do for battery and rider on an electric bike but possibly fatal, if a rider is going fast at the time on a balancing vehicle.

By the way, the BMS doesn't usually do anything about cutting power from the charger when full. The charger has to put out a maximum voltage typically 67.2 V for 16 cells, the BMS will usually shunt current around any cell that reaches 4.2V before the others. When all the cells have reached 4.2V then the battery voltage = charger voltage so very little current will flow. The charger indicates the battery is full usually by simply turning off the charging light, or setting it from red to green when the current drops to a low figure. If left on the charger will continue to supply a small trickle current. Some BMS may cut the charger circuit if too high a voltage is seen from the charger.

[esaj]

5 hours ago, lizardmech said:

Are you sure the latching is mechanical, the other brands are electronically latching types where the button itself has no on or off position. BMS cuts also turn the unit off completely.

My Firewheel turns the power on when the power-pins are NOT shorted, so it still uses a latching button, but even in case the button would come unconnected during riding, it doesn't turn off the power. At first I thought that was weird (kinda like the opposite of what you'd expect), but I get that it's a safety issue.

On the other hand, I think my generic (cannot check now, as it has been on loan with my father-in-law since last summer) has a simple latching push-button, that could cut the power if it became unlatched during riding.

 

4 hours ago, bego1969 said:

When I am reading that the BMS cuts down the power totally when battery is full for preventing an overcharging through riding the device,  I really can't understand why there is not only an electronic cut off that stops only the recharging (when  battery is full). Actually that is a requirement and should be a must in such a device! Every charger stops when battery is full. 

The problem is that the braking power has to be dissipated somewhere, and the most "convenient" way of handling that is to dump it into the batteries (which also has a nice side-effect of recharging your batteries). The downside is that if the batteries are full, the BMS could cut out due to seeing overvoltage on the cells (well, I now know that the original Firewheel BMS certainly seems NOT to cut the power even with overvoltage ).

If you want to brake, the power has to be dissipated somewhere, and if it cannot go into the batteries (without endangering the cells, ie. damaging them, or fire or explosion in the worst case), the options are fairly limited (start freewheeling the motor, which will cause a faceplant, or cut the power, which will cause a faceplant). As the braking has to be done in a "controlled" manner (ie. balancing you at the same time, not just "slamming" on the brakes), and the power during braking can be quite large (several hundreds of watts to above 1kW peaks), dissipating that much power elsewhere is problematic. Large power resistors with large heatsinks might be able to shed off the heat without burning, but the size & weight would probably become an issue.

Hopefully we'll see some sort of solution to this sometime. Options I've thought about:

-Maybe large resistors with heatsinks could be fitted somewhere, or other load (lightbulbs? )
-Drive a flywheel with the excess power, this could actually help to balance the wheel too, maybe... (or make it more unstable? )
-Insert a heating resistor inside a tank of liquid to shed the heat into the liquid (but then the liquid must be cooled "fast enough" that it doesn't boil or cause a rupture due to excess pressure)
-Shed the excess power to an auxiliary (smaller capacity) battery pack, that's being discharged fast with some dummy load, like a large lightbulb

To get rid of the extra kinetic energy, it has to be turned into some "transformable" energy form, like chemical energy in the batteries, (very bright) light or heat... It tends to turn into heat most "easily", and usually it's more or less impossible to prevent ANY heat from forming.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Can a BMS be designed to shunt power to charge a medium sized capacitor that is attached to a flash bulb like in a small digital camera?  I know with my Yongnuo speedlites they really eat up battery power over a photo session.  A camera flash might be able to dissipate the energy quickly enough with repeated charge and flash cycles?  Or how about a small heating element that is attached to the outside somewhere remotely so it can't be touched easily.  Or how about using those Peltier coolers that were mentioned previously to act as overcharge energy dissipaters with the added benefit of cooling something?

[esaj]

36 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Can a BMS be designed to shunt power to charge a medium sized capacitor that is attached to a flash bulb like in a small digital camera?  I know with my Yongnuo speedlites they really eat up battery power over a photo session.  A camera flash might be able to dissipate the energy quickly enough with repeated charge and flash cycles?

Probably, although I'd think the shunting of power to somewhere else than battery is easier to handle on mainboard/motor drive bridges, at least as long as the BMSs are "off-the-shelf"-types.

36 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

  Or how about a small heating element that is attached to the outside somewhere remotely so it can't be touched easily.

Same thing as with power resistors (heating element is a resistor): it likely needs a fairly large and heavy heatsink.

36 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

 Or how about using those Peltier coolers that were mentioned previously to act as overcharge energy dissipaters with the added benefit of cooling something?

The other side of the Peltier still needs to be cooled, again, requiring a fairly large heatsink. But the cold-side could be used to cool down the mosfets.

Mostly it's (probably) a cost & size issue: extra components add cost to design & manufacturing, and the shell needs to be designed to house the components somehow.

[Waffles981]

On only my 4th day of ownership and after some very tough riding in the woods today I've had the same problem. I've already taken mine apart to remove the beeper so I've done that again today to diagnose what ring with the switch, turns out that they use very cheap switches with a sub-standard plastic clip inside that keeps the switch down when switched on that after some use just can't take it and wears to a point that it can't keep the button depressed. I managed to get a stone and some tape then jam the power button on to get me from the woods home but I don't dare ride it now until I've got a new switch which I've just ordered off eBay for £3! I'll tell you if it works ( mine didn't come with a warranty so there's no point in returning it, from an eBay seller)

[RANX]

On 07/05/2016 at 5:09 PM, Keith said:

No they are not all electronically latching, in fact read back to the beginning of this thread. Both Airwheel and KingSong have push on / push off latching mechanical switches and I'm sure they are not the only ones. 

@RANX, I would agree that the evidence does suggest this was the switch unlatching but your other two statements are wrong.

BMS cut out at low voltage OR high current so are just as likely to cut out with a full battery, for example hitting a bump at high speed can cause a sudden current surge that is enough to trip it. Indeed possibly more so as braking or going down hill with a full battery may cause it to cut out due to the regenerative braking voltage having nowhere to go.

If the BMS cuts power the wheel will be off when you pick it up as the BMS has shut down the battery, this also means that there may be no beeping as the BMS does not give any warnings. The only clue it is a BMS failure would be that the power switch would be still latched on.

so when the BMS cuts out it kills all power and the unit freewheels ??

shouldn't the BMS do a safe stop if it detects a fault

doesn't sound safe if it just lets the wheel go uncontrolled

[Keith]

1 hour ago, RANX said:

so when the BMS cuts out it kills all power and the unit freewheels ??

Yes, but also there is no torque to hold the peddles firmly so they go as floppy as they are when the unit is switched off and the rider goes flying off into a faceplant if he/she was going fast at the time (try standing on your wheels peddles without it powered up to see what I mean). It most certainly does not (and cannot) freewheel and slowly come to a halt as one might hope and an electric bike/scooter would do.

shouldn't the BMS do a safe stop if it detects a fault

You have hit the nail on the head but firstly a balancing device cannot, on its own, do a safe stop as any braking or power reduction will throw the rider off forwards. All it can do is beep/alert and tilt back (which requires more torque - i.e. even more power) to encourage the rider to lean back and brake. However even that RELIES ON A DEDICATED EUC BMS THAT COMMUNICATES THE PROBLEM TO THE MAIN BOARD and does not shut off power itself. Using BMS that were designed for electric bikes  on some EUC's prevents that from happening.

doesn't sound safe if it just lets the wheel go uncontrolled. Yes very true :-)

Are you still so sure your wheel's power switch released? 

 

[RANX]

On 09/05/2016 at 0:52 AM, Keith said:

Yes I am as When I picked it up it was off (Unlatched)

was on a gentle downwards slope (luckily), and as I said before had only travelled approxiametely 2 KMs, with no problems or alerts
bummer it has put me off riding, and was really starting to enjoy it

PS

not sure if I mentioned it before, but it is only a few months old, and hadn't really travelled very far in total on it.

and yes will be contacting the supplier soon as possible.

also thanks for the feedback.