GotWay 2016 new 16 inch model ACM Specifications

[US69]

29 minutes ago, Berus said:

 

For KS riders the speed is the most important thing ..and for this reason they must buy KS.

 

haha...Good that you know, why KS riders choose KS :-)

 

[OliverH]

I converted an old excel table from an automotive project and started to adopt it to EU.

Red line is power curve of the motor (peak performance) over speed. The other lines represent the different rider weights and and the resultung driving ressistance (air drag, friction, powertrain loses, balancing power) - in this case a light incline.

## Remark ##
This is only for demo purpose. All values are currently guessing. So resulting curves/ speed is not true. Power curve is estimated, no real EU. It only should illustrate that there's a max speed for a given condition (red line  crossing the relevant driver weight curve). It's a static view, no accelerating here. From the crossing point the firmware should have a safety margin with at least 3-4 km/h (better more and reduced accelerating capability at higher speeds) as a max speed limiter.

I need some meassurements with my MSuper to plot a diagram with more realistic figures. Maybe we should initiate some Bachelor/ Master thesis on this matter. I need to search for a possibility to make a power meassurement of the motor first on a bench. Anyway, we'll end with the conclusion that EUs are only really save up to 20/ 25 km/h with enough safety margin. That's why I smile when people discussing to ride more that 30 km/h.

This kind of diagrams are used in automotive industry to set up gear box ratios/ power curves of cars.

[Jason McNeil]

 

3 hours ago, OliverH said:

we'll end with the conclusion that EUs are only really save up to 20/ 25 km/h with enough safety margin

But there's plenty of evidence that the current >800W (sustained motors) of GW & KS have a stall speed of around 45kph. Surely for these Wheels, an operating range of up to 30kph in regulated (bike lane class) & maybe 35kph in unregulated mode (offroad) is acceptable, this still gives them a massive amount of RPM/speed margin. 

Along similar lines, GW seem to quote their speed specification as the inflated App reported stall speed rather than tilt-back/recommended cruising speed. 

[OliverH]

50 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

 

But there's plenty of evidence that the current >800W (sustained motors) of GW & KS have a stall speed of around 45kph. Surely for these Wheels, an operating range of up to 30kph in regulated (bike lane class) & maybe 35kph in unregulated mode (offroad) is acceptable, this still gives them a massive amount of RPM/speed margin. 

Along similar lines, GW seem to quote their speed specification as the inflated App reported stall speed rather than tilt-back/recommended cruising speed. 

Set me on top of that EUs and I show the limits  Maybe the KS16 arrive this week (should have last week). I need to prepare some test equipment to do some data runs.

[jbwheel]

Havé a look here, bench work for MSuper2 (in french...) with some curves, 80kg weight. Not sure about how air resistance is included. http://gotway-france.com/forum-gotway-france/13/TEST-TECHNIQUE-MONOROUE-GOTWAY-MSUPER2-680wh.html

[dalewalker]

Omg some of you are just pathetic. All im seeing is people talking crap. If your too scared to do 45km/h then dont! Plain and simple. Do you drive your car around at its maximus speed all the time or even ever? Get a grip! All this petty bitching and picking holes in every aspect you can to try make the ks16 look like a better choice. Tut tut tut. Shame on you! Heres some news for you. My mate has a ks16 and it cut out on him sending him flying to the ground at about 35km/h and this is on video!!! Without video your clames are just that.. claims. Do i think the ks16 is a bad wheel because of this? No i dont. Its a great wheel like the acm is a great wheel. Some of you need to grow up and be adults instead of bitching and looking for problems like a 10 year old girls!  Im getting myself the acm because its the wheel i believe to be the best wheel for me. Most feedback i have seen about the acm by those that actually ride it is 100% positive feed back. Dont talk crap if you dont even know! Putting down other brands is something i often see ks owners and sellers doing. (I dont mean saying .... wheel is slow when it is slow or ... is an ugly wheel if its an ugly wheel. I mean this kind of crap were seeing on this thread) Noone else does this. Does this mean if i buy a ks i have to act like a dick too? No it doesnt because i know alot of people with ks that aren't dicks. Have a look at yourselves guys. What a shameful display from a bunch of people that claim to know what there talking about but obviously just want to talk crap! I cant wait until i get my acm and its going to make me sooooo happy to own 1 just like those that get the ks16 will be equally happy with there choice.

[SlowMo]

10 minutes ago, dalewalker said:

Does this mean if i buy a ks i have to act like a dick too?

[Cloud]

 

 

15 hours ago, dalewalker said:

 this mean if i buy a ks i have to act like a dick too? 

 

15 hours ago, SlowMo said:

I was wondering why i always behave like such a double dick. Now i know its because i own two kingsongs  

[Mono]

On 4/13/2016 at 1:11 PM, OliverH said:

Anyway, we'll end with the conclusion that EUs are only really save up to 20/ 25 km/h with enough safety margin. That's why I smile when people discussing to ride more that 30 km/h.

It kind-of defeats the idea of a real investigation if you are already sure to know what you will end up with and smile over people who believe otherwise. Confirmation bias is maybe the most vicious enemy of truth. 

Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. 

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you
are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful
about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to
fool other[ scientist]s. You just have to be honest in a
conventional way after that.            -- Richard P. Feynman
 

If we are uncritical we shall always find what we want: 
we shall look for, and find, confirmations, and we shall 
look away from, and not see, whatever might be dangerous 
to our pet theories.                   -- Karl Popper

[OliverH]

2 hours ago, Niko said:

It kind-of defeats the idea of a real investigation if you are already sure to know what you will end up with and smile over people who believe otherwise. Confirmation bias is maybe the most vicious enemy of truth. 

Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself. 

The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you
are the easiest person to fool. So you have to be very careful
about that. After you've not fooled yourself, it's easy not to
fool other[ scientist]s. You just have to be honest in a
conventional way after that.            -- Richard P. Feynman
 

If we are uncritical we shall always find what we want: 
we shall look for, and find, confirmations, and we shall 
look away from, and not see, whatever might be dangerous 
to our pet theories.                   -- Karl Popper

I'm coming with the safety view. Seen to much faults, suspect firmware behaviours and crazy harness routing. Had two face plants with my old IPS with spline bruise which made problems for 5 weeks.

The EUCs are not build/ planned with a safety target in mind. So a safety/ risk approach is the way I define the acceptable max. speed for me. That's my personal view and opinion. If others like to ride 35, 45 km/h or what ever, they should do it. But please in a way the EUC community don't get a bad reputation. I call the high speeds competition class and street use with 20/ 25 km/h max. Again that's my opinion.

[Mono]

2 minutes ago, OliverH said:

street use with 20/ 25 km/h max

What speed limit would you call for if EUCs would be intrinsically safe against losing forward/backward balance (like bicycles)?

[OliverH]

27 minutes ago, Niko said:

What speed limit would you call for if EUCs would be intrinsically safe against losing forward/backward balance (like bicycles)?

It depends

For normal street use 20/25 km/h should be fine in most situations. Keep in mind spec is 120/150 kg rider weight and EUCs don't limit the speed depending on drivers weight.

[Matrod]

EUC safety at speed is based off two things: 

1. The ability of the wheel to be able to correct itself (from bumps or curbs or whatever).

2. Rider skill.

Very simple if you don't feel safe going faster than 25km then don't. This community is on the verge of making huge advancements in the field of personal transportation and we need to see what they are capable of. One possible fix to this issue would be the ability to adjust the beeps to whatever level the rider feels comfortable.

So far I have not had any issues or even know anyone personally in my euc group who has had any faceplants or cut outs that were unwarranted.

I personally have had my MCM4 tilt forward past its max speed. Fortunately I was able to recognize the signs and not eat pavement.

I'm very excited to try out my ACM16 in the next few days as I was limited to "slow" speeds from my MCM4. 

[OliverH]

31 minutes ago, Matrod said:

EUC safety at speed is based off two things: 

1. The ability of the wheel to be able to correct itself (from bumps or curbs or whatever).

2. Rider skill.

Very simple if you don't feel safe going faster than 25km then don't. This community is on the verge of making huge advancements in the field of personal transportation and we need to see what they are capable of. One possible fix to this issue would be the ability to adjust the beeps to whatever level the rider feels comfortable.

So far I have not had any issues or even know anyone personally in my euc group who has had any faceplants or cut outs that were unwarranted.

I personally have had my MCM4 tilt forward past its max speed. Fortunately I was able to recognize the signs and not eat pavement.

I'm very excited to try out my ACM16 in the next few days as I was limited to "slow" speeds from my MCM4. 

If it comes to regulations you need to show that a fault of an EUC can be prevented and if it happens that the rider and third party around are not hurt. That's the baseline of product safety. Switzerland has limited self balancing vehicles to 20 km/h (Segway style and EUCs), Germany the Segway style self balancing devices also to 20 km/h (EUCs are supposed to be regulated also in the future). We're not able to show off a safety concept to cope with 20 km/h right now.

The upcoming PLEV standard is supposed for 25 km/h. Above 25 km/h is competition and not able to get certification.

[Matrod]

1 minute ago, OliverH said:

If it comes to regulations you need to show that a fault of an EUC can be prevented and if it happens that the rider and third party around are not hurt. That's the baseline of product safety. Switzerland has limited self balancing vehicles to 20 km/h (Segway style and EUCs), Germany the Segway style self balancing devices also to 20 km/h (EUCs are supposed to be regulated also in the future). We're not able to show off a safety concept to cope with 20 km/h right now.

The upcoming PLEV standard is supposed for 25 km/h. Above 25 km/h is competition and not able to get certification.

Very unfortunate that countries are already regulating speeds. I'm sure the United States will follow. Hopefully they will see the usefulness of these extremely effective transportation devices. 

[Mono]

36 minutes ago, Matrod said:

Very unfortunate that countries are already regulating speeds.

Why would you want to have anything non-human powered with unlimited speed driven on public streets without a drivers license?

[Matrod]

27 minutes ago, Niko said:

Why would you want to have anything non-human powered with unlimited speed driven on public streets without a drivers license?

Why would human powered vs non-human powered matter? Who said anything about a driver's license? Why do these only have to be used on public roads? (These are all rhetorical) You are making way too many assumptions. Why would you be upset with me because I don't believe in regulating speeds of unicycles? It should be up to the riders to ride safely. I'm glad that Gotway is making a fast sturdy product and I hope that they continue to make more, better and more safe unicycles.

[Mono]

5 hours ago, Matrod said:

Why would human powered vs non-human powered matter?

Because human power is limited by nature, hence speed by human powered vehicles is limited by nature. 

Quote

Who said anything about a driver's license?

I said it. I said it because this is how the law works. For high speed devices it requires drivers licenses. 

Quote

Why do these only have to be used on public roads?

Nobody suggested that. But the law regulates use on public roads, for good reasons. 

Quote

(These are all rhetorical) You are making way too many assumptions.

These are not assumptions, these are the limits in which an EUC law works or would work, or legislation in general always works, for good reasons. I just gave a number of conditions which hold for any EUC (and for many other devices). So saying "an EUC" makes hence many more "assumptions", so I gave in fact some leeway to the argument of no speed limit, as I was asking why anything with these conditions should have the favor of unlimited speed, not everything.

Quote

Why would you be upset with me because I don't believe in regulating speeds of unicycles?

No worries, I am not upset. I was asking a simple question, didn't get an answer though, so starting to worry whether someone is upset.  

Quote

It should be up to the riders to ride safely.

Unfortunately, in this world, this is a rather unsustainable position, because riders can and will put others in danger. Speed limits for EUCs, as any speed limits, are mainly not to protect the drivers, but to protect everybody else. Hence they are valid on public roads.

Out of interest: are you against any speed limits, also, say, for cars?

Quote

I'm glad that Gotway is making a fast sturdy product and I hope that they continue to make more, better and more safe unicycles.

No disagreement there 

[edwin_rm]

There is absolutely no reason to limit the speed of the electric unicycles. Riders can choose for themselves if they want to go slower, by enabling slow speed tiltback.

Someone else said it already. Automobiles are not speed limited by the factory to force people to drive at the highways speed limit. People choose for themselves to drive slower if they prefer, or faster.

None of us live in North Korea. Let's not ask for over-regulation!

I, personally, live in America the land of the fucking free! I'll ride as fast as I want.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, edwin_rm said:

There is absolutely no reason to limit the speed of the electric unicycles. 

Do you know any precedent for a powered vehicle where neither power nor speed are limited and that is allowed to be used by drivers without a license on public streets?

[edwin_rm]

1 hour ago, Niko said:

Do you know any precedent for a powered vehicle where neither power nor speed are limited and that is allowed to be used by drivers without a license on public streets?

Pioneers don't need precedents. 

[LaRoueDeSecours]

Hey. Are you sure this is right post topic?

Thanks

[OliverH]

7 hours ago, edwin_rm said:

There is absolutely no reason to limit the speed of the electric unicycles. Riders can choose for themselves if they want to go slower, by enabling slow speed tiltback.

Someone else said it already. Automobiles are not speed limited by the factory to force people to drive at the highways speed limit. People choose for themselves to drive slower if they prefer, or faster.

None of us live in North Korea. Let's not ask for over-regulation!

I, personally, live in America the land of the fucking free! I'll ride as fast as I want.

But cars are type approved to be save to drive at 200 km/h or more. My car is speed limited at 260 km/h, never driven so fast, but I like to cruise with 180-200 km/h in Germany on a free highway. It would be possible in Germany. But the brakes, the aerodynamics, the chassis /struts) are designed for this and the approval agency made a couple of tests to proof that the car can handle that speed and has decent brake power and do much more tests.

• What happens if the motor brakes at a car? The car stops and you can roll out to the side of the road.
• What happens if a brake line is damaged? The car is able to brake with some behaviours because it has redundant brake lines and has grouped several brakes to groups. And you still have a hand brake.

Only to give some examples on safety concerns. The sentence public road includes most al of the roads, still the ones in the forest over here. Only private ground can clearly stated as non public road if you've fences and a gate.

What happens if you've a power failure, a main board failure (MOSFets blown) or a motor short? The EUC will not roll out with you on top. At low speeds you may run out from the EUC or if it's happens suddenly you'll do a face plant. At higher speed it's unlikely you run out, you'll do a face plant.

Driver licence, type approval and so on is regulated in national laws by today. In Europe there are improvements to bring them to the same level. Only some special vehicle classes are different right now.

That's my thoughts behind that a speed limited EUC with certification is a good idea. People can use to commute, take tours through cities in urban areas. It will help to get the target from Kyoto protocol. On the other side there still could be other versions with open speed for off-road/ sport use. Why not. But the real EUC business will convert to a street legal use as this will achieve the mass volume the manufacturers need to earn money. Today's yearly output at the manufacturers are way to low.

But we're way off topic. Sorry for that.

[Mono]

4 hours ago, OliverH said:

That's my thoughts behind that a speed limited EUC with certification is a good idea.

I admit that I have some reservations about the positive effect of type approval. In my estimation such a process is to a large extend determined lobbyists, who want to protect and increase their revenues. It is likely to make it much harder for small competitors to enter the market and will increase prices artificially. In the worst case scenario the main lobbyists do not produce EUCs (and this is what I understood from what I have read) and they will try to make it particularly difficult for EUCs to pass type approval, at least if they are smart enough to understand the competition. What is your estimate of the outcome of the process? Given you think that none of the EUCs we have now are even close to be worthy of approval, isn't that in effect removing legal EUCs from the market for quite some time? What is your estimate of the costs to get a type approval for a single EUC model in Europe, rather 10kEU or 100kEU?

[OliverH]

2 hours ago, Niko said:

I admit that I have some reservations about the positive effect of type approval. In my estimation such a process is to a large extend determined lobbyists, who want to protect and increase their revenues. It is likely to make it much harder for small competitors to enter the market and will increase prices artificially. In the worst case scenario the main lobbyists do not produce EUCs (and this is what I understood from what I have read) and they will try to make it particularly difficult for EUCs to pass type approval, at least if they are smart enough to understand the competition. What is your estimate of the outcome of the process? Given you think that none of the EUCs we have now are even close to be worthy of approval, isn't that in effect removing legal EUCs from the market for quite some time? What is your estimate of the costs to get a type approval for a single EUC model in Europe, rather 10kEU or 100kEU?

I'm not sure about. It depends what will be done. In Switzerland it would be 15-18k CHF per type. If you come with a couple of types, let's say MCM4, ACM and MSuper or KS14/ 16 & 18 and you've parts/ functionality are the same some tests could be made on one type only. So there *can be* a reduction that 2nd/ 3rd type would cost less than 10k. It's some bucks per sold unit in the end. Who cares about? That's a no brainer.

Type approval is one part (distributor) but there needs to be technology in front to be able to start type approval. In Switzerland every EUC opts out at the first questions (e.g. redundancy (power, control board, gyro, motor (could be build being redundant))). That's the difficult part, but possible.

The output will be street legal. I did the following estimation some time ago for central european countries:

• Germany (90 mil), 43 mil cars on the road
• France (60 mil), 31 mil cars on the road
• Switzerland (9 mil), 4.5 mil cars on the road

Let’s do an estimation: 1 per mil of the car owners will buy an eWheel every one/ two years:

• Germany 43.000
• France 31.000
• Switzerland 4.500

EUC manufacturer can participate from a business case or they can let pass it by. The Kyoto protocol addendums 2020/ 2030/ 2050 will force government to limit CO2 polution by cars. And the top CO2 polution of cars is generated in city and by urban traffic. To commute with train/ bus (public traffic) will be pushed, may be also Google cars and so on. Personal transportation an and will get a part of it.