KS16 -- CE Certification and Warranty

[OliverH]

4 hours ago, sylvere said:

I thinks KS FRANCE just explain that KS CHINA can not test all solutions from all resellers brings, KS CHINA just warranty what they have tested in the factory and i feel it’s right. A nice idea to bring different batteries or BMS  but it's a extra responsibility to open a wheel i think for KS CHINA , why should they take responsibility and give warranty on a wheel that they did not test. I don’t speak about performance or CE.

you're free to do what you feel when the wheel is not under warranty anymore

 

This is the same for your clients, if they open a wheel and make modifications. Do you agree to fix it under warranty ?

All resellers are clients for KS CHINA

 

Now if 1RadWerkstatt have a deal with KS CHINA to do modification then it’s another story

From a customer point of view:

o distance improvement
I like to make tours, have heavy/ long inclines, a weight of 100+ kg and like to achive more than 35-40 km distance. That's not possible with the current EUs. In our area a 680 Wh is good for small tours. 850 Wh fits better, the more the better.

o more capacity/ resistance against load
We had a lot discussions in different threads (mainly @Jason McNeil ) on the battery quality and I think Chris Hettenhausen (1Radwerkstatt) likes to use the same battery cells. If a company like KS gets feature request with explanation why they like to use different battery cells than this is only a logistic/ pricing issue (listening to market demands). On a device with "almost" paralleled battery packs this is a safety issue. If I as a customer can choose between mainstream and better quality I will choose better quality.

Mainboards get smoked also with standard batteries. There's a problem with the programming (Back EMF) or heat/ efficiency. If the firmware routines detect a threshold situation than there should a reaction happen to get away from this threshold. If the firmware is not fully tested and let happen situations not mapped to a behaviour handling it could fail - regardless of standard battery or improved battery. The firmware has to make sure what maps (defined areas) it operates. Maps are like in a car defined values for conditions (load, temperature, wheel speed,..). But this stuff is in the early steps.

If there would be a certified battery pack over here available than the EUs can be send without battery (IATA problem) and the battery can be build in at the distri.

[US69]

 

EDIT: for everyone: above was a "official Letter" from KS China, that says only Batterie pack Up to 680wh Are "official".....

now.....it has been hidden or deleted!!!

 

 

 

my answer to The "Original" Letter:

"someone" dont ask for an official document (from 04. march 2016 ;-) )

"Someone" asked to show proof that KS has told/forbidden 1Radwerkstatt to not any more suply bigger and better batteries....

and.....Its just funny that KS themself forgot to mention their "exclusive" 840wh 14c AND 840wh 16A they give to their reseller "electricunicyclereviews" :-)

So as 840wh is no Standard config by KS......with 840wh then no warranty also on the electricunicyclereviews store, i think??? 

 

Just a joke.......like this letter

 

 

 

[SlowMo]

War of the Kingsongs. I like it. 

[OliverH]

I know someone using a KS 18 with internal 1508 Wh and additionally external 828 Wh. This is amazing. This is a distance to ride of around 150 km. Everything beyond 680 Wh will give us the possibility to support City AND urban transportation (the key issue for us derived from Kyoto protocol). With this official letter from KS they will block them in sales.

KS likes to be premium, likes to attack and bypass Gotway. With this letter they tell customers evaluating an EU for tours "go ahead to Gotway". Sad statement. It would be better to define quality requirements and approve the 3rd party battery packs.

[Mono]

On 3/2/2016 at 7:48 AM, Kingsong-France said:

So you will support the aftersales for your customers? 

Does the hidden assumption in your question mean that you, @Kingsong-France, do not support the aftersales for your customers?

[US69]

I like to explain why i am so grumpy in this:

 

I am from Germany....and bought my KS14C just 2 weeks ago, still learning... Now, what do you think where i buy it?

I was in contact with 1Radwerkstatt-Chris, who answers all my question, contacted me by telephon, very nice Service blabla bla...

BUT: I bought it at gyrorue-shop (Sylvere), a re-seller from Kingsong France, for ONE main reason, It was in stock, so i dont have to wait 3-4 weeks (and about a 100 bucks cheaper, but thats wasn't the point for me)

As you can think -Chris from 1Radwerkstatt was not very happy...BUT: He just did NOT loose ONE BAD word about Kingsong-France, on the contrary, he just offered Service if needed, or later perhaps better Battery from him....that's what i call good advertisement and Service!

 

If have nothing bad to say about the buy from Sylvere....

 

But then to read ....Sorry, such a nonsense from KS France about CE, "warning" about 1Radwerkstatt-reseller, and now reading such a crappy "official letter" about loosing warranty....

...which btw i think was just a kindness from KS China to KS France...(just look at the date).

That just makes me angry and Feeling unfair Treatment not only to 1Radwerkstatt, but also all KS Customers in General!!

 

So KS China just "forgot" to mention the 840 wh??? Would be nice if they explain the difference between a 828wh battery and a 840wh battery for a KS14 or KS16....

 

Sorry guys...this all is just a joke....

First it was the CE...now its the Warranty....

For me its just disattraction/disflection of the first egregious 1radwerkstatt "blaming"......

And i can truly say that KS France just lost a future customer...Point..End...Out!

 

[Kingsong-France]

KS CHINA have for the moment only 2 exlusive distributors. (In korea and in France)

Kingsong France have all rights to sell everywhere if KS China don't have exclusive distributor.

About the KINGSONG letter, it is not a joke or not a kindness.

the difference between the battery 840Wh and 828wh:

-840Wh is with KINGSONG Battery board, battery assembled by Kingsong in the factory.

-828Wh is not Kingsong battery board and battery in not assembled by Kingsong in the factory. NOT APPROVED BY KINGSONG

@KingSong69 you have 2 years warranty on motor and mother board and 1 year on your battery. If you change your battery 680Wh by other battery not certified Kingsong, I must to advise you because we will not support the aftersales and your warranty will be deleted.

 

 

 

 

[US69]

I just hope a lot of People read this nice conversation and will find their own descision....

If i ever, ever, ever Change the Batterie on my KS14C....i think YOU would be the last  Person on earth who will get knowledge about it!

Any more words from me would be against board rules/Netiquette....

 

[esaj]

Just to chime in a bit: I'm fairly sure the difference in capacities between "828Wh" and "840Wh" comes from the fact that 1RadWerkstatt uses the REAL nominal voltage value of 59.2V to calculate the capacities. Consider, using 4 packs of 3.5Ah (3500mAh) cells:

60V * 3.5Ah * 4 = 840Wh

59.2V * 3.5Ah * 4 = 828.8Wh.

I believe I've seen 1RadWerkstatt quote the 3500mAh-cell packs as "207Wh" (59.2V * 3.5Ah = 207.2Wh). So they're both (probably) using 3.5Ah cells, but cannot tell if they're the same or different cells. Based on what I've seen, 1RadWerkstatt seems to only pick the high quality / high capacity / high discharge cells, so I'd expect the replacement batteries to work just as well, if not better, than the originals.

As for the warranty issue, I won't poke it with a stick. My next wheel's going to be ordered without batteries anyway, and will use custom batteries.

[US69]

1 minute ago, esaj said:

Just to chime in a bit: I'm fairly sure the difference in capacities between "828Wh" and "840Wh" comes from the fact that 1RadWerkstatt uses the REAL nominal voltage value of 59.2V to calculate the capacities. Consider, using 4 packs of 3.5Ah (3500mAh) cells:

60V * 3.5Ah * 4 = 840Wh

59.2V * 3.5Ah * 4 = 828.8Wh.

I believe I've seen 1RadWerkstatt quote the 3500mAh-cell packs as "207Wh" (59.2V * 3.5Ah = 207.2Wh). So they're both (probably) using 3.5Ah cells, but cannot tell if they're the same or different cells. Based on what I've seen, 1RadWerkstatt seems to only pick the high quality / high capacity / high discharge cells, so I'd expect the replacement batteries to work just as well, if not better, than the originals.

As for the warranty issue, I won't poke it with a stick. My next wheel's going to be ordered without batteries anyway, and will use custom batteries.

I know this fact's...if i am good in something...it is knowledge about 18650's(from vaping Hobby)...there IS just ONE trustable 18650 with 3500mah....so it will be the same

And like i "poked it with a stick" in last post: Who will know what Pack was in a device on the time it fail's?----That's why i call this letter a good joke...or better: a advice to stay on "exclusive Distributors" side....

[dmethvin]

To me this looks like a case of both sides being right because the difference hardly matters.

Your satisfaction and trust has to be ensured by the reseller, that is the company you bought from. Legitimate authorized resellers have a cooperative relationship with the manufacturer. Your business is making the reseller money. The reseller's business is making the manufacturer money. If you go to the reseller with a problem that wasn't due to your own fault, they should solve it. That may involve fixing/replacing it themselves or they go back to the manufacturer who they bought from and get them to fix/replace it. If the reseller does not get satisfaction from the manufacturer they will stop selling the product.

It does not surprise me that King Song says they do not support products that have been significantly modified, and a new battery pack is pretty significant. If I go to a garage and they modify my BMW to use a high-performance drivetrain, will BMW still honor the warranty and accept liability for problems in the changed drivetrain? No, but the garage definitely should!

So from the reseller's standpoint it is "better" selling unmodified units from the manufacturer because they don't have to take on additional risk, and they may be able to sell an unmodified unit at a more competitive cost because they will have fewer warranty situations where they will pay the cost rather than the manufacturer. However, if customers do want something more custom, a reseller willing to offer that can charge a higher price because the materials themselves are more expensive, and also because they may need to eat some costs if something goes wrong. At least, a good reseller should do that.

[US69]

you Know The difference here is:

BMW or better Cars Are in The market about 100 years....

EUC's Are Brandnew....and one of The Main Concerns/Problems/Gasoline Are The Batteries...

so to See that a exklusive distributer is saying: no foreign batteries accepted....and that even if they Are The excact Same Type 3500 mah...is stopping The market from getting better!

and if this is just because of getting a Competitor out The way...or discrediting him a bit....or Even it is just because KS france is Not Able to say: i have make a mistake by bullying....

then this one is Not here to bring EUC foreward....he is just in for The Bucks....which is No Problem....but he should get The Money for some good...Not by spreading fear of warranty loss!

 

 

[DS]

5 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

"official letter"

Just to point out that this letter was not named and not signed...maybe that's why is not anymore uploaded here.

For me, there is not such an animal "official document" without signature and name.

[US69]

13 minutes ago, DS said:

Just to point out that this letter was not named and not signed...maybe that's why is not anymore uploaded here.

For me, there is not such an animal "official document" without signature and name.

I did Not Even See it was deleted :-) thanx

i think it's just "hidden"....

i Tell you what will Happen....it will come back!

but this Time with! The 840wh "Special Edition" for KS14 and 16 mentioned!

in The next following post KS france also just  has deleted that KS China only "forget" to mention The 840wh

if this will Happen ...then you will See WHO is The REAL Author of this "official letters" from KS "China"

 

it is getting better and better......

 

 

[DS]

2 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

but this Time with! The 840wh "Special Edition" for KS14 and 16 mentioned!

Well, I don't think Kingsong France will go so far in this dispute. They edited their first post also in this thread, which IMHO means...peace

Also, once uploaded picture in internet...you never know on how many local hard drives you can find it

 

[Tomek]

wow, can't believe that @Kingsong-France is not only playing such a dirty game, unprovoked (out of jealousy?) bullying @1RadWerkstatt, threatening people that their warranties from @1RadWerkstatt are worthless, pompously, shamelessly bragging about being the biggest and most amazing, super-excusive ks reseller... so immature. don't they see how many potential customers they are loosing by acting this way? especially in the advent of the ks16 release and many people considering ordering it now.

[Kingsong-France]

Indeed , this is not how we should see things . no jealousy !!! again, @1RadWerkstatt is not our competitor. You just understand that Kingsong is a brand and they must have a harmonized range for all distributors. 

 

[US69]

......

[jbwheel]

Here is what the french normalization group is saying about CE for electric unicycle, as they are conducting a workgroup for a european standard :

" European Directives do indeed exist1, but they don't provide any specific requirements for these machines, nor do they prevent the sale of badly performing or even hazardous products. "

In another interview, they are saying " Ces trois directives sont tellement larges qu'elles disent, en gros, que si ça n'explose pas à la figure alors c'est bien". Which means something like, the 3 existing standards are so unspecific, they are saying vaguely if it it does not explode at your face then it is ok...

http://www.afnor.org/en/news/news/2015/decembre-2015/urban-mobility-a-european-standard-in-2016-to-ensure-reliability-of-personal-light-electric-vehicles

http://www.lesnumeriques.com/trottinette-electrique/pour-afnor-norme-sur-trottinettes-encadre-pas-pratique-mais-pose-exigences-securite-a2535.html

Last time Kinsong France talked badly about another reseller on a french forum, making claims for KS China and about CE, it went so badly that they asked to delete the whole topic... looks like they didn't learn about their mistake.

 

[Neale Gray]

Milbay Australia are exclusive distributors for Kingsong in Australia and New Zealand and have been for a very long time, Milbay ship internationally to most destinations.

On ‎4‎/‎03‎/‎2016 at 0:50 AM, Kingsong-France said:

KS CHINA have for the moment only 2 exlusive distributors. (In korea and in France)

Kingsong France have all rights to sell everywhere if KS China don't have exclusive distributor.

About the KINGSONG letter, it is not a joke or not a kindness.

the difference between the battery 840Wh and 828wh:

-840Wh is with KINGSONG Battery board, battery assembled by Kingsong in the factory.

-828Wh is not Kingsong battery board and battery in not assembled by Kingsong in the factory. NOT APPROVED BY KINGSONG

@KingSong69 you have 2 years warranty on motor and mother board and 1 year on your battery. If you change your battery 680Wh by other battery not certified Kingsong, I must to advise you because we will not support the aftersales and your warranty will be deleted.

 

 

 

 

 

[dalewalker]

On 10/03/2016 at 0:52 AM, Neale Gray said:

Milbay Australia are exclusive distributors for Kingsong in Australia and New Zealand and have been for a very long time, Milbay ship internationally to most destinations.

 

How much for the KS14D?

[Ponne]

On 3-3-2016 at 0:22 AM, OliverH said:

In Europe customs can block goods not having CE declaration. It's derived from machine directive and product safety laws.

In a nutshell: CE means the device is not emitting radio frequency above a defined threshold and it's resistant against radio frequency.

CE is EMC (electro magnetic compatibility). The device is put on a desk and measured while charging and connected in general to power. It's not operating under any load condition on a bench. The battery change shouldn't change anything. If the BMS is not a single layer pcb that should also not change EMC behaviour.

CE is not EMC. CE label says that the device is comform the european product standards. You need a CE certification to sell in europe.

But there is no third party control. So you have to believe what the manufacturer says.

[OliverH]

21 hours ago, Ponne said:

CE is not EMC. CE label says that the device is comform the european product standards. You need a CE certification to sell in europe.

But there is no third party control. So you have to believe what the manufacturer says.

Yes. A lot of standards are self decleration. Scope of CE can be much wider as we see it today.

But in CE you've a lot of EMC tests by today. A subset what should be done.

[nomad]

How about I poop in a box and put a CE stamp on it? (no offence)

[OliverH]

3 hours ago, nomad said:

How about I poop in a box and put a CE stamp on it? (no offence)

You only need to put a sticker on it: Keep away from fire (Explosionsfara) 

Hej da.

 

If we look on current CE reports from EUC manufacturers. They're measured in a static position, switched on. There's no driving and real EMC tests with malfunction on the EUC or the EUC harming waves/ distortion.