Kingsong-France Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 On 26/2/2016 at 11:29 PM, 1RadWerkstatt said: 1RadWerkstatt and Tina from KS has invented the 340Wh version from the KS16-A. KingSong would not make a 340Wh version.... We have a sample (680Wh) here and test ride is no problem. We will sell the KS-16A with special Battery options 754Wh and 828Wh, Batterys are of us with best Cell´s from the Market, but this cell´s are more expensive. Each Wheel are checked in Germany before shippment to customer Please check out Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/1radwerkstatt You can see the new Prototype XXL Pedal for all King Song Wheels. The finish pedal become spikes and a better surface on top.... in picture only prototype The Pedal ist 25cm long end perfect for EU feets. 1RadWerkstatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 4 hours ago, Kingsong-France said: Every one please be carefull of this kind of reseller. If you change the battery pack like @1radwerkstatt your whell will not have any more CE certification. I disagree, @1RadWerkstatt are professional engineers, they have a good reputation & if anything, they make reasonably good Wheels safer by their upgrades. There are many 'certifications' that are not worth the ink in the stamp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 6 hours ago, Kingsong-France said: Every one please be carefull of this kind of reseller. If you change the battery pack like @1radwerkstatt your whell will not have any more CE certification. In case of any problem your insurance will ask CE certification. And check the machine if you did not change any things. You know how are insurance. Any way If you buy 754Wh or 828Wh 1radwerkstatt should procure you the new CE certificate that he need to do after changing part of a finished product. Wish you all a good day Come on King Song France!!!...Please! 1Radwerkstatt is the KingSong Reseller for/in Germany! What's that kind of agressive blaming a competitor in an other european country ?! They are doing a fantastic job of delivering better and bigger battery packs with even better BMS! If you can not mess with them by servicing in batteries or repaires or producing better parts for our wheels, then do it in better pricing, but not in blaming them for doing their best for their customers! And by the way....all EUC Drivers in Europe have bigger Problems than the CE certification.. Whish you a good day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael de Gans Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 7 hours ago, Kingsong-France said: Any way If you buy 754Wh or 828Wh 1radwerkstatt should procure you the new CE certificate that he need to do after changing part of a finished product. If there was such a thing as CE+ certification, that's what the wheel would get after @1RadWerkstatt's modifications. Even though these are scare-politics, it is worth a mention that you will lose your CE certification. As a customer though I wouldn't mind trading in the CE certification against a better BMS with bigger battery pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecko Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 KingSong-France..... Your are out!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johrhoj Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I will buy from dealers with good reputation. The reputation of King Song France just went down somewhat. It will only go up after a "sorry we should not have said this". They are obviously not looking for what is best for the customer ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneWheel Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 I trust 1Radwerkstatt , he could have easily over quote me the price of the 388wh battery for Ninebot One, instead it was much better price than I expected. Unfortunately due to delivery issues, I had a full refund. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1RadWerkstatt Posted March 1, 2016 Share Posted March 1, 2016 No fair play from KingSong-France and i´m disappointed... Legal Texts in German only, please self translate: Führt eine Reparatur zum Verlust der CE-Kennzeichnung? Eine Reparatur führt zu einer Wiederherstellung des Urzustandes des Produkts. In der Regel werden defekte Bauteile gegen baugleiche Komponenten ausgetauscht. Die Funktionalität und die elektrischen Eigenschaften des Produkts werden nicht verändert. Die Gefährdungslage durch das Produkt entspricht nach der Reparatur dem Zustand wie es zur Zeit der CE-Kennzeichnung war. Solange das Produkt in seiner Funktion und seinen elektrischen Eigenschaften nicht verändert wird, besteht keine Pflicht, ein neues Konformitätsbewertungsverfahren durchzuführen. Sollte bei der Reparatur kein Originalbauteil mehr am Markt verfügbar sein, so kann ein Bauteil mit identischen Eigenschaften und Spezifikationen verwendet werden. Wann verliert die CE-Kennzeichnung ihre Gültigkeit? Wird ein Produkt nachträglich in seiner Bauart oder Funktion verändert, so ist erneut zu prüfen, ob die gesetzlichen Mindestanforderungen noch eingehalten werden, oder ob ein neues Konformitätsbewertungsverfahren durchgeführt werden muss - auch für gebrauchte Produkte. Entscheidend ist, ob das Produkt wesentlich verändert wurde. In short: No essential changed parts and the parts have the same characteristics. Battery MSDS is available for all Battery´s from 1RadWerkstatt All Battery "regenaration" company´s in Germany do the same thing. You lost no CE product cetification. The Batterys from 1RadWerkstatt comes full checked - all parameters. All protections on board with the additional riding safety include! No various power cut´s from Battery. Each 754Wh / 828Wh Wheel is complete double checked befor Shippment. Thanks at all EUC rider for the positiv Feedback! We do all things for: good Products, more Safety, more cool spare Parts and the best Service for all EUC rider 1RadWerkstatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adhermes Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 15 hours ago, Kingsong-France said: Every one please be carefull of this kind of reseller. If you change the battery pack like @1radwerkstatt your whell will not have any more CE certification. In case of any problem your insurance will ask CE certification. And check the machine if you did not change any things. You know how are insurance. Any way If you buy 754Wh or 828Wh 1radwerkstatt should procure you the new CE certificate that he need to do after changing part of a finished product. Wish you all a good day I'm really disappointed in this kind of talk. A company of engineers and enthusiasts try to bring a great product to consumers, and what do they get? A bunch of scare tactics from a competitor. What a slimy, underhanded way to do business. @Kingsong-France you should be ashamed. Offer good service and support in order to win customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 7 hours ago, Kingsong-France said: Hi Everyone, I am Thomas the CEO of KINGSONG FRANCE. @ 1RadWerkstatt : I am very sorry for the bad message you received from a member of our team. I can't tolerate this kind of message, I am sorry again it is not acceptable. As you know, we are an ambassador of Kingsong and Kingsong have some rules that every distributors must respect to develop the market in the best way and in the same way. Your idea to develop more powerfull battery is good but if it is not from KINGSONG CHINA you do not respect the KINGSONG standard and the other distributors. Also about the warranty: Are you 100% sure that KINGSONG China will support the aftersales for motherboards and motor for the wheels assembled with battery 754wh and 828wh? I know well the answer will be NO because not standard configuration approved by KINGSONG. So you will support the aftersales for your customers? We can compare this to a big modification on a car under warranty. In case of problems, there is no warranty. CE Certification: If you change the batterie standard not approved by KINGSONG so for 16 Inch 340Wh, 520Wh and 680Wh by other battery similar it is ok. But if you change By yourself with a 828Wh and new battery board, the wheel is not CE. The certification is for all the wheel and not parts by parts. It is quite clear that we should not make major modification with your batteries, you change the capacity and the BMS .... The question is what is tested by the CE approval. If I remember right there's no testing under load conditions. It's about radio frequency compatibility of the device. In the CE report you see the device lying on the desk under rf attack from the test equipment or meassured what it emmits lying on the desk. Then the charger is meassured. With ISO 12100 Typ C they like to implement new rf test rules - what I understand. I would say the EU should pass the CE test with no problem based on the modified battery packs with new BMS. Jason got a configuration on his specs from KS with nearly the same battery cells/ comparable battery cells on the KS14. If KS don't accept this modifications they would not sell enough units. And for long distance trips and inclines 680 Wh is not enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsong-France Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 If I remember well, Jason and KINGSONG FRANCEordered from KS-14C with 840Wh battery but the BMS is the same than for other batteries. Also, it is a standard developped by KS. All I wrote before are approved by KINGSONG CHINA. Thomas Unfortunatelly, KS have some problem for purchasing this kind of sells with LG from December. In the near future, other battery capacity will be available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1RadWerkstatt Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Without discussion: All new 1RadWerkstatt battery´s comes with CE and EG-confomity declaration You become no problems with Warranty or CE when you buy a Wheel from 1RadWerkstatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecko Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 I will trust @1RadWerkstatt way more than KingSong-France, they really know what they are doing and the personal contact is a really great experience! My little opinion! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsong-France Posted March 2, 2016 Author Share Posted March 2, 2016 Kingsong will not guarantee motherboard and motor if the wheel doesn't respect the KS Standard. We don't say @1RadWerkstatt is doing a bad job or have a bad experience. The idea is good but the method is violating the Kingsong rules. So, KINGSONG asked 1RadWerkstatt stopping to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 3 minutes ago, Kingsong-France said: Kingsong will not guarantee motherboard and motor if the wheel doesn't respect the KS Standard. We don't say @1RadWerkstatt is doing a bad job or have a bad experience. The idea is good but the method is violating the Kingsong rules. So, KINGSONG asked 1RadWerkstatt stopping to do it. So i would really like to see some proof about this!!!->"KINGSONG asked "1RadWErkstatt" stopping to do it" 1Radwerkstatt is -i think- the main/big KingSong Distributor in Germany- with some Dealers selling for them...AND they worked with Tina from KS China on the 340wh Konfiguration of the new KS16...... And you will tell us KS China told them to stop delivering !better! batteries for their customers? This batteries the only difference is they have a Little more "mah" and are better and more expensive... and by the way....its always the same 16s2p pack!! Show proof or stop blaming competitors! In the Moment you are just risking YOUR Reputation...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Ok...after this last Post i will Stop here now... We are living in a global world and the difference of a getting a parcel from France or Germany is just a mouseclick away.....so if you think you both are not competitors, cheers mate, happy online sell's.... I am not Long here in this Forum writing....but what i have seen reading much here....especially from you, Sir, Sorry...i would call it "agressive Marketing"! No other seller here has such a behaviour, not Jason, not milbay, not 1radwerkstatt, nobody, .... "I have this...", "My sellers are...", "We pre-orderd this......"------ all this things i would normally like to see in the Forum-group "advertisement" an not in this normal threads.... So if i have to make a guess i would say: You are on the pressure to sell a lot of EUC's, perhaps you promised KingSong China to much???....but guess what: This doesn't work with blaming other sellers...cause this unicycle community is small and know's who's on the good site. And if you jump on somebody -competitor or not- who is known for producing fantastic powerful good battery packs, better pedals for KS, good repair Jobs AND good service....... ....that's just a silly move! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktiga Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 To be honest, when did you look for CE marking on your toy from China? And I rather take reputation before a stamp any day. Because ISO, EC etc. Is just as good as the company makes it. And it's just not China for that matter, it happens here in Scandinavia too for different reasons. I've worked a long time in oil companies and you would be amazed what risks people are taking when money is involved. Just look at the latest volkswagen scandal. Anyway have a nice day a drive safe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Guys, while i agree the kingsng france tactics may have been self serving and they may have had an ulterior motive and really should have been more impartial in discussing the Ce and the warranty situation, I still dont understand such an aggressive reaction from the forum members. We are not a religious sect here, no need to crucify someone because they may be biased. Where it should have stopped is kingsong france said - there is no CE certification with modified batteries, 1 radwerkstat refuted that they still have the valid CE and warranty, if anyone has evidence of this or evidence otherwise, provide it...everyone reads the posts and can makes conclusions why people say what they say....this would be a civilized way of dealing with this. All sellers are in some way biased, conciously or subconciously, by nature of what they do multiplied by their human nature. Sometimes they slip up and utilize self serving tactics. Its as old as the world itself. Some are more discreet than others in the way they communicate. Show me one person on this planet who is not biased about the product or the brand he sells or doesnt think his service is better than someone else's. The original motive may have been something else, but CE certification and warranty is a valid question - i think we all should take it down a notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 The background of the topic of which batteries get packaged with their Wheels is a complex story. King Song's preferred battery choice, the LG MG1, the same that was used in the Ninebot E+, was selected not on account of it's performance but owing to availability in the Chinese supply chain. Around mid-last year, I was lobbying that King Song make the switch to one of the newer formulas with a lower internal resistance from LG or Samsung. As has been discussed on many other threads, although there are many components to up-rate the sustained & peak power ratings, it's difficult to overemphasize the importance of a battery with a low IR to produce Wheels with a higher cut-out threshold owing to voltage drop. If each cell in a 16 cell series can maintain a .3v higher voltage under a 10A load (for example) this translates into a massively increased margin of safety. For some manufacturers, this salient fact may not be evident, or choices apart from technical ones may trump supply choices. If not mistaken, until quite recently 1RadWerkstatt started out by identifying this oversight of manufacturers to not use the best possible cells available & providing custom packs for IPS, Airwheel, Gotway, etc. After seeing the popularity of the the 840Wh packs, King Song now offer this choice for distributors, Ninebot too have adopted the high-power LG HG2s in their now discontinued P (failure of this Wheel had nothing to do with the battery pack). As wheels increasingly come under scrutiny by testing labs, I'd predict that all Wheels will standardize on a handful of tried & tested high performance cells. I think the central concern to this argument comes down to improved safety. The work that 1Radwerkstatt & others (I hope to be included in this category) to raise the general standard, will I hope, allow Wheels to transcend the abysmal reputation of the loathsome 'Hoverboards'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomek Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Cloud said: Guys, while i agree the kingsng france tactics may have been self serving and they may have had an ulterior motive and really should have been more impartial in discussing the Ce and the warranty situation, I still dont understand such an aggressive reaction from the forum members. hmm, which aggressive reactions do you mean? i only noticed @Kingsong-France being aggressive towards @1RadWerkstatt and threatening them with Kingsong that on their request will prohibit them to sell modified wheels. I do find it annoying that this kind of fire-breathing happens publicly on this forum for no apparent reason. I do agree though that some valuable topics were raised as a spinoff of this. following what @Jason McNeil said i am building my own custom packs of samsung 30Q cells (will post more about it soon), but this will obviously void (at least some aspects of) my wheel's warranty and can be risky to do on your own if you don't have the right know how and caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Btw: to all Technical interested People...this following Link is to a "Batterie" Test Site....giving detailed Info about measured Volt Drop, real "mah", internal Résistance etc etc....it has been for using recharging Batteries in Electronic cigarettes...These Need The Same As our EUC....massive current...low internal resistance and low Volt Drop: http://dampfakkus.de/akku_liste-nach-groesse.php?size=18650 It's a German Site...but in The Tables it's Self explaining Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 Quite frankly CE means nothing to me in US, it may/not be government issue and who knows or what they do...a lot of what comes out of China I might as well use the paper money used to buy item, as toilet paper, but some is more then worthy, if you get a legit product, not knockoff. We have UL and used it only for insurance and legal means, otherwise build and use your own device... Just saying CE is supposed to be 'trustworthy' but is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted March 2, 2016 Share Posted March 2, 2016 In Europe customs can block goods not having CE declaration. It's derived from machine directive and product safety laws. In a nutshell: CE means the device is not emitting radio frequency above a defined threshold and it's resistant against radio frequency. CE is EMC (electro magnetic compatibility). The device is put on a desk and measured while charging and connected in general to power. It's not operating under any load condition on a bench. The battery change shouldn't change anything. If the BMS is not a single layer pcb that should also not change EMC behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viktiga Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 The real question is who is doing the EC checks and how big % do they check? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sylvere Posted March 3, 2016 Share Posted March 3, 2016 I thinks KS FRANCE just explain that KS CHINA can not test all solutions from all resellers brings, KS CHINA just warranty what they have tested in the factory and i feel it’s right. A nice idea to bring different batteries or BMS but it's a extra responsibility to open a wheel i think for KS CHINA , why should they take responsibility and give warranty on a wheel that they did not test. I don’t speak about performance or CE. you're free to do what you feel when the wheel is not under warranty anymore This is the same for your clients, if they open a wheel and make modifications. Do you agree to fix it under warranty ? All resellers are clients for KS CHINA Now if 1RadWerkstatt have a deal with KS CHINA to do modification then it’s another story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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