Villac Posted May 22, 2016 Share Posted May 22, 2016 Thanks, @OliverH! It has been rainy, so I only took it out on the driveway for a bit. I'm eager for another commute to work on the newly running Msuper. (Except now I"m curious about the ACM and the Msuper3!) The board worked well, I first hooked it up piggyback tilted, unsecured. as expected it wouldn't balance correctly but it showed that it powered up. Next I removed the old board, removed the Bluetooth module, and secured the new board. It then balanced correctly. I couldn't find the grey caulk that had been placed in China, but I found clear silicon caulk for fireplaces, stable up to 400 degrees. I used this to water-seal the back of the aluminum plate before re securing it and I used the silicone to secure the wires that had been previously coated in adhesive (as well as the Bluetooth module) when I replaced the covers, I noted that a lot of the screws wouldn't catch as well so the adhesive worked for them too. I replaced a few with larger diameter screws. The new board came alive in soft mode. I spent forever getting it switched to Madden Mode. My new Samsung s7 no longer displays the three dot menu select on the v4 Gotway app, so I had to install it on my wife's Motorola running an older version of android and I was able to switch it back. (I got a boost from 150 km odometer to 450 km odometer because, (as described to me before I got it) the board I got from Nevin @NevNutz had clocked a few more trips around the block! With the adjustment to Madden mode, it felt exactly like it used to! I suppose on my next trip up the big hill to the hospital I'll discover if the even that burned out the old board happens again! no doubt I'll be wearing my gear and not in a business suit this time! Thanks to all who gave advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Can someone explain why the computer kill the power on over speed? What is the technical reason. I would think that the computer should only slow you down. I don't understand why it kill. I got a face plant on my MCM4. Disabled tilt back. I heard the alarms beeps but kept going and down I went at full speed. It really sucked. Luckily only rash burn and soreness. Please explain. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 46 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Can someone explain why the computer kill the power on over speed? What is the technical reason. I would think that the computer should only slow you down. I don't understand why it kill. The controller must always try to balance the wheel. Depending on the perceived pedal angle it gives torque in one direction or the other. Therefore it cannot slow down, unless the wheel is in exact vertical position. If the wheel does not touch the ground and is not exactly vertical, it will hence continue to give torque and hence the speed will increase. Then the cut off prevents waiting until the battery is empty to be able to put the wheel back on the ground. A technical solution for this dilemma would be a sensor which detects the driver or weight on the pedal and would not cut off the wheel in this case. 46 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: I got a face plant on my MCM4. Disabled tilt back. This isn't the best of all ideas, unless you know exactly what you are doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Can someone explain why the computer kill the power on over speed? Thats related to physics of the electro motors - the higher the speed, the less torque is available until at the maximum speed the motor cannot generate any further torque. So no balancing is possible anymore - so without a controller cut off you would have faceplanted with a few km/h more. i don't really know why the controller cuts off before this max speed is reached. anyhow - this couple of km/h could only be used by some extreme artists if anyone could balance a not anymore selfbalancing EUC at speed at all... 1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: What is the technical reason. I would think that the computer should only slow you down. thats not possible for an EUC. If it brakes (=slows you down) without you leaning back you just faceplant ... it can only balance you and so by reacting to you shifting your center of gravity in front or backwards of the wheel accelerate or decelerate. or change the neutral angle of the pedals for example backwards (=tiltback) to show(beg) you that you should lean back and break instead of further accelerate. 1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: I don't understand why it kill. I got a face plant on my MCM4. Disabled tilt back. I heard the alarms beeps but kept going and down I went at full speed. It really sucked. Luckily only rash burn and soreness. Please explain. So you had good luck that nothing more happened after disabling and ignoring all warnings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 14 hours ago, Chriull said: the higher the speed, the less torque is available until at the maximum speed the motor cannot generate any further torque. So no balancing is possible anymore - so without a controller cut off you would have faceplanted with a few km/h more Running out of torque does not equal to faceplanting, at least not for an attentive and experienced rider. That makes a big difference to cutting off the motor which is pretty much unsavable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 5 hours ago, Chriull said: So you had good luck that nothing more happened after disabling and ignoring all warnings! Yeah I really want to know why turning off tilt back and riding through ALL the warnings caused ME a painful face plant too. Life is so unfair ! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I am not complaining. I made a mistake to ignore the alarm. I thought the worst that would happens would be the controller keeps the wheel turning to its best ability. But shutting completely off is ridiculous. Yes i understand once you reach max torque the wheels ability balance diminishes. That is ok it at least it maintains some level of control. Cutting out at 22mph is not necessary. I am sure the controller should be able to just keep spinning the max speed and not just kill it. It like slamming the brakes when the limit is reached. The controlled should just reduce power as critical level is reached. The same for acceleration. If the battery is getting critically low, it should limit the impulse response to prevent losing all power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 29 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Cutting out at 22mph is not necessary. I am sure the controller should be able to just keep spinning the max speed and not just kill it. It like slamming the brakes when the limit is reached. The controlled should just reduce power as critical level is reached. Again, the controller cuts the motor off, because if you lift the powered wheel off the ground it would otherwise keep spinning "forever". That is indeed unfortunate, or call it even ridiculous, when you ride the wheel into this cut off. I am sure future EUCs will prevent this, but currently, AFAIK, there is no single EUC on the market which does not spin out and cut off when lifted from the ground and does the same when ridding into this cut off speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 6 hours ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: I am not complaining. I made a mistake to ignore the alarm. I thought the worst that would happens would be the controller keeps the wheel turning to its best ability. But shutting completely off is ridiculous. Are you sure that the controller shut off at 22 mph and not some time afterwards? Quote Yes i understand once you reach max torque the wheels ability balance diminishes. That is ok it at least it maintains some level of control. Cutting out at 22mph is not necessary. I am sure the controller should be able to just keep spinning the max speed and not just kill it. It like slamming the brakes when the limit is reached. The controlled should just reduce power as critical level is reached. The same for acceleration. If the battery is getting critically low, it should limit the impulse response to prevent losing all power. 6 hours ago, Mono said: Again, the controller cuts the motor off, because if you lift the powered wheel off the ground it would otherwise keep spinning "forever". That is indeed unfortunate, or call it even ridiculous, when you ride the wheel into this cut off. I am sure future EUCs will prevent this, but currently, AFAIK, there is no single EUC on the market which does not spin out and cut off when lifted from the ground and does the same when ridding into this cut off speed. One has to distinguish 2 "conditions": (which i unfortionately mixed up in my previous post which just does not work out) One is the max no load velocity. The wheel can normally never reach this speed - not even while lifted off the ground. The motor does not have any torque anymore to accelerate the wheel over this point. Some external force like a decline would be needed to overcome this speed limit ( including the friction and air drag). A reason why the controllers cut-off before reaching this max no load speed could be that the motor changes its mode "uncontrolled" to generator mode once this speed limit is crossed. Dont't know if the programmed cut-off before max no load speed has any real reason or this is just something one of the first firmware programmers introduced and all the other took this over? Maybe someone more into firmware details like @electric_vehicle_lover can add some detailed knowledge to this topic? The second "condition" is the max torque over speed curve of the motor: At any speed the motor can only deliver some maximum amount of torque. (*) If one accelerates up to this (other) maximum speed for this specific torque just generated by the wheel, there is still enough "surplus" torque to further accelerate. But a little bit less, since with the already increased speed the maximum available torque got a bit less again, and so on... So before "hitting" the max torque speed curve the wheel used some amount of torque to overcome friction and airdrag and some surplus to balance the leaned forward rider (accelerated). Once the max torque speed curve is touched the wheel has with increasing speed less of this "surplus" torque left to further accelerate. If the rider continous to unchanged lean forward this is a classic case of overlean and will result in a face plant. An attentive and experienced rider could prevent this faceplant if he reacts immedeately once the motor hits the max torque speed curve by reducing the forward lean and by this asking for less torque/acceleration from the motor so he could get "away" from the max torque speed curve. (or better just forces the wheel to slow down) At around 22 mph (~35 km/h) the power needed to overcome air drag and friction should be somewhere around 500W. So this speed (max speed for a torque to counter the 500W resistance) is well below the max no load speed and the max lift cut-off speed and by this there exists no reason for the controller to cut-off except some hard- or software malfunctions. (or the under (*) mentioned overtemp cut-off) I'd assume that the felt "cut-off" was just accelerating to strong into the max-torque speed limit curve and by this beeing surprised by the "sudden" missing support from the wheel. Which can feel like a cut-off... (*) there was also some 120A short time cut-off at the last generation of GWs which caused some "stuttering" and then there is was also some "overall" power limit programmed in the Firmware of the KS16 (~1900W) - could easly be that most other companies handle this similar. This second limit is also only "short-time" while the overload exists. Another limiting factor known from previous GW models is the overtemp shut-off. At some temp beeping occurs and if the temperature rises further to a second threshold the wheel just shuts off with no further warning. Could also be a possible explanation for this "accident"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 I understand the reason. I supposed they need to add additional sensors to actually detect "no-rider". But I also understand the more sensors and features the higher failure modes. I just don't think cut-off is the correct fix to free spinning wheel of ground. I think it is more dangerous to through me to the ground at 22mph than having the wheel free spin. There is a power button and it shots off automatically after 45degrees tilt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: I just don't think cut-off is the correct fix to free spinning wheel of ground. What is the correct fix then in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 Edit.. Multiple edits.. A re-write basically. Sorry @Carlos E Rodriguez For making light of your fall and injury; the way you formed the question made the Parody too good to pass up. now, about your concerns. The guys above @Chriull and @Mono have spent some time trying to explain what they believe happens; and they know their stuff. what I would like to say is this; ......balancing on one wheel with no actual way to apply braking force, or preventing catastrophe induced face plants, controlled by one control board, and one (maybe) BMS, and a battery pack full of individual cells that can die at any moment, knowing that if any one of the MOSFETS or connections, or any of the items just mentioned, or whatever else fails.....is dangerous. Pushing the equipment to the edge of a virtual cliff and hoping not to fall of is a fools errand. If you want to go, need to go, 22mph without a meltdown, you need a machine that can go 30mph safely. But you are still subject to any of the single points of failure, mentioned above. And did I mention, unseen holes, speed bumps, charging dogs, wayward cyclists and pedestrians? This is not a combustion engine- powered machine. This machine has only one wheel. This machine is governed by the laws of electric batteries and electric motors and gravity. It's not about thinking outside the box, it's about understanding the new box we find ourselves "standing" in. This "box", our "new paradigm", if you will, has a weak, invisible, and constantly moving front surface; approach it wrongly and you will crash right through, without warning, onto your face, as many of us have done? Punch through the box enough times and you get a feel for where it is. You also realise that it is constantly moving. Low battery, steep hill, heavy rider, too much speed, hot battery, weak motor? Guess what that invisible wall is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR NOSE.... And now it's behind you as you slide down the road on your face. Full battery, level surface, easy cruising speed? Now the front surface doesn't even exist; it's a tube now, not a box. Keeping the front of the box comfortably infront of you is the key. i and many others here, have learned to respect the fluid nature of our box. After a while, and several face plans, it becomes second nature; we know when the front of the box is too close for comfort. This is one box you don't want to think outside of. This stuff can, and does bite. But ebikes are so Ma and Pa Kettle, so boring. This stuff is fun; dangerous fun, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 10:56 AM, Carlos E Rodriguez said: . I think it is more dangerous to through me to the ground at 22mph than having the wheel free spin. 22mph is way too fast to fall off. I hope you are okay now. Have you opened the wheel and checked all the wires? After a crash at that speed, the wheel could be damaged and unsafe at any speed. At that speed, the wheel must have tumbled many times before stopping. Just think what all that high speed flipping, smashing, and bouncing might have done to the sensors and wires, not to mention the batteries. What is the condition of the wheel, anything break? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 9:48 AM, Mono said: Again, the controller cuts the motor off, because if you lift the powered wheel off the ground it would otherwise keep spinning "forever". That is indeed unfortunate, or call it even ridiculous, when you ride the wheel into this cut off. I am sure future EUCs will prevent this, but currently, AFAIK, there is no single EUC on the market which does not spin out and cut off when lifted from the ground and does the same when ridding into this cut off speed. I agree with @Carlos E Rodriguez, there should be sensors in the wheel that know if someone is on it and so does not cut off at max speed, but gradually slows them down. Tiltback is supposed to do this, but apparently can be bypassed or overridden. That seems like a firmware problem. Has anybody ever had a cutout on a genuine Solowheel? We see so little about them in this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 23/02/2017 at 1:20 AM, steve454 said: I agree with @Carlos E Rodriguez, there should be sensors in the wheel that know if someone is on it and so does not cut off at max speed, Of course, there should be sensors, but the reality is that there are not and under this reality I don't see a better solution.^1 Somehow even worse, the Uniwheel had such sensors but never made it into the market beyond the built prototypes. I am sure future wheels will neither spin out when free running nor shut off when ridden, but I am also sure we are still living in the present, though wait, it feels like the future, I am confused... ^1 Though ideally the cut off speed should never be reachable under normal riding circumstances, that is, it should only be reachable when going downhill or with heavy tailwind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 @steve454 the wheel has only some scratches. I hold a strap to prevent my wheel from wondering too far. Not sure if I was holding it or not but wheel was at arms reach when all motion stopped. Luckily I did a superman which transferred all the energy onto a chest slide. only suffered a shim abrasion and a deep abrasion on by right forearm. My knee guards saved my knees. My wrist guards saved my hands. Wrist guards suffered deep abrasion but not my hands. Face saved by bicycle healmet. My chest saved by winter best which is destroyed. The healmet saved my face. Since the front lip stopped by face from scraping. No sprains. Only full body soreness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted March 1, 2017 Share Posted March 1, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoother Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 1 March 2017 at 6:30 PM, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Face saved by bicycle healmet On 1 March 2017 at 6:35 PM, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Carlos, you have my respect. If that's what you cal a "face saved by bicycle helmet" I'd hate to see a face "not" saved by a bicycle helmet. Please stop trying to kill yourself. We need you. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted March 2, 2017 Share Posted March 2, 2017 On 3/1/2017 at 11:35 AM, Carlos E Rodriguez said: Ouch! This is why motorcycles have the chin-guard ... hope it's nothing too serious... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 On 2/22/2017 at 7:07 PM, Mono said: ^1 Though ideally the cut off speed should never be reachable under normal riding circumstances, that is, it should only be reachable when going downhill or with heavy tailwind. Ideally, cut off speed should never be reached, even if going downhill or with a heavy tailwind. Abnormal riding circumstances would include being towed by a faster vehicle, then the wheel would be out of it's own control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve454 Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Smoother said: Carlos, you have my respect. If that's what you cal a "face saved by bicycle helmet" I'd hate to see a face "not" saved by a bicycle helmet. Please stop trying to kill yourself. We need you. ? No, that happened after his wife saw the winter best she gave him all torn up. Pow! right in the chin. So, Carlos, I hope you are feeling better now, and the soreness has gone away. Is the wheel still working well, have you been riding it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted March 3, 2017 Share Posted March 3, 2017 17 hours ago, steve454 said: Ideally, cut off speed should never be reached, even if going downhill or with a heavy tailwind. I guess you are right, also under these riding condition the tilt back should be able to prevent reaching the cut off speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 I am all good. Stoped riding for a couple of days because my whole body and shoulders where sore. My shin is healed now. My forearm injury is still healing. So i say if you are planning to go above 10 mph, you must wear heat, shin, elbow, wrist, knee and ankle protection. I see this videos of people going all out in the Superv3 machines with no protection. This things are machines on one wheel. It will fail and you need to assume it will and you need to be ready to take the fall and survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentry3 Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 ...Faceplant on MSuperV2 Last weekend i had my first faceplant caused by the MSuper V2 (MS Motor, 850Wh). I was following one inmotionV8 (420Wh) driver at ~15mph (23km/h) way back after having a tour of ~22km on slightly offroad and gravelroad ways. I was riding at constant speed uphills with 2% slope, probably accelerating slightly after passing 2 pedestrians. Suddenly my MSuper switched off magnetic balancing, the pedals tilted over in driving direction and i touched the ground at 22km/h. I was wearing a helmet and gloves, but not any other protection. The gloves were totally scaped off, but fortunately not my skin. After 2 days having pain at both hands and my left hip i decided to publish that here. There are somethings to comment. - After the accident, the Msuper was able to switch on. I was riding the remaining 500m back to the car and i recogniced power level of only 2 or 1 (of 4) leds alternating (depending on power demand). - We started the tour with 4 leds on my MSuper (but it was not on a full charge, probably 80%?). I thought my 850Wh battery has always more energy stored as the inmotion 420Wh driven by my EUC associate so i did not check the battery status during driving. This was my fault. Conclusion: It was my fault not checking battery status, but it is not acceptable that an EUC is giving 100% power on low charge, switch off suddenly at mid speed, drops off the driver and after the crash it is restartable with no problems. It is an firmware issue that Msuper V2 protects the machine and not the driver. I heard that other EUCs (the KS18) reduce speed with pedal tilt when going on low charge. That behaviour would have saved me. I hope that Gotway has improved the firmware on newer Msuper and i will exchange the controller, if it could be possible to get one with a better firmware. Now i always wear a better protection and i do not trust my Msuper having 2 LEDs charge status... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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