After a crash, regaining trust

[2disbetter]

I broke my shoulder almost 2 months ago. I talked about it here on the forum. The issue I'm finding as I get back on my EUC, is that I just don't trust the wheel anymore. It is a different wheel, but I think the main issue is that my crash and resulting broken shoulder was not because of rider error. It was because the driver board in my 2 month old V12 HT died while riding. The wheel was essentially new. It took maybe 5 tumbles as I learned to ride EUCs on that wheel. I was doing about 50 kph / 30 mph when this happened. 

As a result while I'm riding the V13 I can't help but fear that the electronics are going to die again on the V13, and this time at a higher speed and with a heavier wheel. 

I love riding, and I'm not giving up, but how do I convince myself that what happened with my V12 was just a fluke and shouldn't happen again? 

Have any of you had to deal with something like this?

[Cerbera]

I think the V13 is designed and engineered specifically to minimise the chances of cut-outs, and is (so far) looking pretty successful in that regard.

But trust is earned over time, and once you lose it takes a while to get back, though you'd think a new wheel would get a brand new slate as well, and not get the distrust in its predecessor carried over ! But pain, and lots of it is hard to forget in the short term, so it's natural that we would be filled with trepidation in the first few rides after a crash.

My MS3 cut out on me for no reason I could fully grasp on 3 occasions across 5 years. Each time it took around 6 weeks of subsequent rides to not be in constant fear it would do it again. Some peace of mind comes from finding out exactly what caused the last crash - it's the mystery / unexplainable / unresolved ones that lead to most worry of course... more peace of mind comes from doing regular checks and maintenance that convince you all is working as it should be. But none of this is fool-proof.

At the end of the day, we are on a form of transport where we crash if pretty much anything goes wrong with the hardware. Electronics do fail routinely, in all sorts of systems for all sorts of reasons, and of course components do wear out over time, and faster if over-heated or over-stressed. I think you really have to accept that there is a very small chance of a crash every time you get on any wheel, and all you can really do is wear all your gear, and try and ride in as safe a way as possible. If you can't get over the possibility of a crash and its consequences then EUCs are not the transport for you.

 

[2disbetter]

I hear you and thank you for your comments! 

The V13 has not given me any issues, and I don't have any reason to suspect anything with it. 

As far as understanding the failure on the V12 HT, I think that is the ticket. What I will say, is that I put a cover on my V12 HT because I didn't want it to get all scratched up while I learned. One time, I accidentally left the wheel on leaning against a wall in my house. The wheel was very hot, and the display said that the mainboard was at 62C. But the wheel itself was VERY hot also. I turned the wheel off, and hoped I didn't break anything. 

After this I began to notice weird balancing issues. Like the pedals would be offset. Leaning back too much mostly. I would have to calibrate the wheel every ride. 

I think THIS was my indicator that something was wrong. I ignored it, because I found a way around it. Still, I think your advice is apt. Basically these are precision vehicles. Their functionality has to be checked and maintenance must be performed. 

I'm thinking about getting another V12 HT though. It was a very good size wheel, that was easy to do things with. It's 60 kph max speed was more than fast enough. 

Parting question for you and the masses here: 

Do EUC covers increase the likelihood of overheating your EUC? 

[alcatraz]

It's a tricky subject. 30mph is pretty deep into speed range of a V12HT. At least with the V13 if you do 30mph you're just about halfway in.

That's one kind of "insurance". 

Then there's the concern that you've got board components with flaws in them. To exclude that maybe just ride at a lower speed for X kms, build up trust in the wheel before going faster.

The last issue that I'm in conflict with right now is aging components and vibrations. Ok so the wheel has done over 10kkm and you feel confident. How many more years can I reliably trust this control board to hold up? A capacitor isn't going to kill the wheel but a mosfet will. Are the mosfets all still bolted down into the heatsinks? Have vibrations shaken things loose over time? What of contamination?

I've seen freak issues like one of the battery input cable of a Tesla V1 sever clean off in the middle. Like it just fatigued into two pieces. That sort of stuff is just impossible to predict.

Still slowly putting in the miles, know your machine, open it up, have a look every now and then, ensure bolts are tight, look for burn marks etc. That's probably the way to go. 

Lastly. If you do recalibrations and firmware updates, you'd better treat the wheel like a brand new wheel to be absolutely sure. Software is a huge part of the wheel now. It didn't use to be. Better leave it be if it works reliably. 

I know noone wants to hear this but when looking at a lifetime of sustainable riding, one probably should never ride faster than one is prepared to crash. The ultimate insurance.

Edited May 15, 2023 by alcatraz

[Robse]

3 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

I broke my shoulder almost 2 months ago. I talked about it here on the forum. The issue I'm finding as I get back on my EUC, is that I just don't trust the wheel anymore. It is a different wheel, but I think the main issue is that my crash and resulting broken shoulder was not because of rider error. It was because the driver board in my 2 month old V12 HT died while riding. The wheel was essentially new. It took maybe 5 tumbles as I learned to ride EUCs on that wheel. I was doing about 50 kph / 30 mph when this happened. 

As a result while I'm riding the V13 I can't help but fear that the electronics are going to die again on the V13, and this time at a higher speed and with a heavier wheel. 

I love riding, and I'm not giving up, but how do I convince myself that what happened with my V12 was just a fluke and shouldn't happen again? 

Have any of you had to deal with something like this?

A little help to get along again:
Think statistics. Everyone chrashes sooner or later,
some worse than others. Now you have had your crash,
and statistically, the probability of it happening to
you again should therefore be much less.

Many many years ago my driving instructor (motorcycle) told me:
You have not finished your driving education until you have
crashed severe at least once.

........ And he was right

Regarding temperature and EUC cover, I would definitely think that
if you wrap the machine in a "carpet", the temperature inside will
also tend to be higher. Whether it is to a harmful level, I have no idea.

[The Brahan Seer]

4 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Have any of you had to deal with something like this?

I am going through this right now too. I broke my Collarbone on Saturday due to an over lean cutout. This was my first major crash and the road I crashed on I had been up hundreds of times without issue at the same speed . I just have to accept I got it wrong that day but it has really put me off atm.

I really hope an airbag that caters to cutouts that stop the hands transferring the force through the body will be our saviour.

I appreciate that my cut out had a reason and can be mitigated but I worry about all the other potential failures but its very early days.

 

[2disbetter]

Thanks everyone! One thing that concerns me is that Inmotion sent me a new driver board assembly, but I'm just worried that the crash broke a lot more than just that driver board. I mean my kickstand lodged into the wheel well and was murder to get out. I just don't see how the wheel could be tossed around with that much force, and simply plugging in a new driver board is going to fix everything. 

I'm not sure I can trust this wheel anymore. On the other hand, I really think the V12 is the perfect size for commuting and for practicality. The V13 really does ride the best, BUT it is HUGE. It isn't really practical in that sense. 

I am actually thinking about just buying another V12 HT so that I can start from scratch and not inherit any issues from previous crashes. 

Make sense, or sound crazy?

 

[OldFartRides]

I might be interested in the crashed wheel as a fixer upper…

[Cerbera]

4 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Do EUC covers increase the likelihood of overheating your EUC? 

Depends how the board is cooled and if your modifications change, reduce or block the airflow over heat sinks and whatnot.

[on one]

My first thought is an analogy to Evel Knievel, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evel_Knievel

My mother always disliked all the publicity that he received, I have yet to read his whole story. Next, I think, but it could never happen to me, I'm too tough, lol. I have been trying to get my Z10 to fail on me by hitting sharp inclines at low speeds, but that is a far cry from knowing the limits to my wheel. Heat is definitely an issue, and I appreciate the value of your crash because it teaches us. I try to take it easy on my wheel when I know it's getting heated up. I hope people can chime into this thread about their accidents because it's so important. It would be cool if a moderator could mine the forums for as many serious accident experiences they could find, link them here, and then sticky the thread for us to learn how to avoid, and always remember to take caution. I'm sorry that you got hurt, and your experience causes one to take caution, and not take for granted how dangerous this sport actually is. Best wishes for a full recovery.

I guess you could regain trust if you research as many ways as possible a wheel could fail, know the limits of your wheel by testing it to see what it can take, mixed with a bit of that Evel Knievel spirit.

Edited May 15, 2023 by earthtwin
spelling response

[daniel1234]

2 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Thanks everyone! One thing that concerns me is that Inmotion sent me a new driver board assembly, but I'm just worried that the crash broke a lot more than just that driver board. I mean my kickstand lodged into the wheel well and was murder to get out. I just don't see how the wheel could be tossed around with that much force, and simply plugging in a new driver board is going to fix everything. 

I'm not sure I can trust this wheel anymore. On the other hand, I really think the V12 is the perfect size for commuting and for practicality. The V13 really does ride the best, BUT it is HUGE. It isn't really practical in that sense. 

I am actually thinking about just buying another V12 HT so that I can start from scratch and not inherit any issues from previous crashes. 

Make sense, or sound crazy?

 

If you love it .. do it.

But you can get into the same nosedive situation or be lucky and have extra wheel for spare parts.

I would not invest into another V12 HT after your experience. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by daniel1234

[level9]

I'm not sure rebuilding what will always be at the end of the day a false sense of confidence in the wheel is the way to go.
These are experimental vehicles made with varying degrees of questionable quality control by manufacturers with little to no product liability.

Make sure you are always fully geared up and learn how to fall without breaking anything is the key to surviving this sport.

Check skateboarding vids on youtube. They fall all the time and have lots of tips.

[on one]

Take minerals to increase bone density.

[2disbetter]

Great advice! Probably would have helped alot. Let me just add that one of the best ways to increase bone density is strength training. IE: lifting weights

 

[daniel1234]

20 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

Great advice! Probably would have helped alot. Let me just add that one of the best ways to increase bone density is strength training. IE: lifting weights

 

maybe even google "knee over toe guy" - I would argue that lifting weight just make your muscle mass bigger. And, Bigger objects fall harder.

[2disbetter]

15 minutes ago, daniel1234 said:

maybe even google "knee over toe guy" - I would argue that lifting weight just make your muscle mass bigger. And, Bigger objects fall harder.

If you are trying to bulk up sure, being heavier could hurt you. But strength training causes the body to release growth hormone, which doesn't just grow muscles. It grows joints, ligaments, and bones as well. A strong bone is good, but our muscles also support those bones. A strong shoulder combined with a strong bone seems like a winning combination. 

Just don't go overboard with it, and you're good! hahaha

 

[The Brahan Seer]

13 hours ago, level9 said:

learn how to fall without breaking anything

This is an interesting topic and perhaps where speed does indeed have a greater impact than imagined.

My cut-out occurred so quickly I didn't have time to think but perhaps learning to try to lean back and slide on the knees so it becomes so ingrained its like a reflex might work, but I'm not sure if at what speeds the forward inertia would make even that too hard to do? Its an Interesting idea. I have certainly seen that response work before though.

I don't know why but cutouts seem so different to balance/pedal clip/ losing traction type crashes to me. I have rolled out crashes before at very slow speeds on grass but wouldn't fancy doing that at speed on asphalt even with all the gear. 

The cut-out to hitting the ground very hard felt instantaneous. I did land on my right knee and what felt like slammed into my right shoulder which I take as being when my hands hit the ground the force transferred to my collarbone. I then must have slid/rolled on my right shoulder/side/back a bit judging by the scuff marks on my leather jacket.

 

[level9]

3 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

The cut-out to hitting the ground very hard felt instantaneous. I did land on my right knee and what felt like slammed into my right shoulder which I take as being when my hands hit the ground the force transferred to my collarbone. I then must have slid/rolled on my right shoulder/side/back a bit judging by the scuff marks on my leather jacket.

 

This could be due to having locked arms when falling.

If the arms are locked when falling, it can increase the risk of injury and impact on the body. When a person falls, their natural instinct is to use their arms to break the fall and protect themselves. However, if the arms are locked and rigid upon impact, it reduces the ability to absorb and distribute the impact forces effectively.

When the arms are locked, the impact energy from the fall is transmitted directly to the joints, bones, and other structures in the arms and upper body. This can lead to a higher risk of fractures, sprains, dislocations, or other injuries. The rigidity of locked arms can also increase the likelihood of injuries to the shoulders, elbows, and wrists.

It's important to maintain a certain level of flexibility and allow the arms to bend and absorb the impact during a fall. The best technique is to keep the arms slightly bent at the elbows and use them to roll or absorb the impact gradually rather than locking them rigidly upon landing.

Also, one should be relaxed during a fall - not tensed up - for the same reason drunk drivers typically walk away from horrid crashes while everyone else is seriously banged up.

So, use the (bent) arms as a shock absorber, to slow - not stop - the fall. Also, sweep the ground with the hands to get into a roll while tucking everything in is the best general advice I can give from what I've seen/read/experienced.

People with a history in sports, especially contact sports will do most of this naturally. Those without a sports background should really practice falling in order to avoid injury.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, level9 said:

So, use the (bent) arms as a shock absorber, to slow - not stop - the fall. Also, sweep the ground with the hands to get into a roll while tucking everything in is the best general advice I can give from what I've seen/read/experienced.

This certainly makes sense, I have fallen many times off the wheel just practicing and the odd mistake but all at near zero or lower speeds and don't sense ever getting tensed up and had never been scared of falling. I couldn't say if I was or not in the cut out as it was so quick I didn't have time to process anything. I am aware that wrist guards can cause the shock to transfer up the arm. My wrist guards by design had a bit of play in the plastic inserts for the initial impact but am unsure if in reality this did anything to help or not. Your advice to practice falling is certainly very sound irrespective of anything else.

 

[Livingston B]

I don't go over 20mph, because I can control that variable and not much else. Kinetic energy = 1/2mv^2 after all, so 3.2KJ at 20mph vs 13K at 40mph for me at 180lbs.  The severity of injury as a function of speed stats are also sobering. 

Easy for me to say of course because I've never been a speed junkie and can't relate to the thrills. I can see 20mph being "why bother" territory for many.

[2disbetter]

I think that is a valid point. Can you factor in safety gear as a mitigating factor to that kinetic energy? The doctors told me if I would have had padding on, that my arm would not have broken. 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Livingston B said:

3.2KJ at 20mph vs 13K at 40mph

What the kinetic energy does in a crash though usually just determines how far you slide. The distance to the ground remains the same at all speeds. Crashing into cars is of course a very different matter, but then again 20mph is not a speed that really makes you welcome on car roads anyway.

I think it’s appreciable for you to have found your speed. I’ve found my personal limit at 29mph, which I never seem to want to exceed. I’m well aware that a collision with someone at those speeds would be real nasty, which is why I only do it occasionally on empty roads with perfect visibility.

[2disbetter]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

What the kinetic energy does in a crash though usually just determines how far you slide. The distance to the ground remains the same at all speeds.

I agree with you, BUT, the issue when being thrown from a wheel that is cutting out is that, your legs and hands most likely will redirect that kinetic energy into the ground. This is what happened to me. The wheel cut out, it launched me like a rocket forward. Then because of power pads, my feet anchored me to the wheel, already pitching me down. My foot hit the pavement first, followed by my knee and leg, followed by my hand and arm, followed by my shoulder. Kinetic energy arrested. Broken shoulder. 

If I would have been going slower at the time, I know my shoulder would not have broken. The fall would have been different, etc. 

My biggest issue, is that speed is FUN!!! The feeling of being able to whip around on the wheel is addicting! 

Still, the sobering thing for me is that breaking some and recovering is a real drag. It is not worth it. So sure I'll go fast still, but only occasionally and for very short bursts of time. I think 25 mph will be my kind of speed max. (40 kph)

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by 2disbetter

[techyiam]

53 minutes ago, 2disbetter said:

a wheel that is cutting out is that, your legs and hands most likely will redirect that kinetic energy into the ground. This is what happened to me. The wheel cut out, it launched me like a rocket forward. Then because of power pads, my feet anchored me to the wheel, already pitching me down. My foot hit the pavement first, followed by my knee and leg, followed by my hand and arm, followed by my shoulder.

That is a good description of how your body's linear momentum in the horizontal direction can get converted into angular momentum, driving your upper body into the ground. The higher the travelling speed, the higher the impact force. I suspect that the speed that you were travelling at, was high enough, so that when you stuck out your hands to break the fall, your shoulder got broken. 

It is hard to avoid. The difficulty here is to be able to fall onto your knee guard and no further, and then just slide on your knee guard. When the wheel cutout, it created an angular momentum. I am not sure what ways are there for a rider to train so that in a case of forward cutout, a rider can just land on his knee guard and slide.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

I agree with you, BUT, the issue when being thrown from a wheel that is cutting out is that, your legs and hands most likely will redirect that kinetic energy into the ground. This is what happened to me. The wheel cut out, it launched me like a rocket forward. Then because of power pads, my feet anchored me to the wheel, already pitching me down.

I’m sorry that I’m still stuck with this, but I’m not completely following what you mean.

Did the mosfets fry when the wheel cut out? Because that would create a lot of resistance in the motor, which I agree does slam you to the ground harder at faster speeds.

 But if there was no additional resistance, until you hit the ground your angular momentum should be the same whether you’re at zero speed or blasting at 50mph (air drag excluded). (As long as your posture and lean are the same of course.)

I’m not following what you mean by “redirecting that kinetic energy into the ground”. What makes the hands “redirect” the kinetic energy? Or do you mean that when the hands hit the ground, a faster moving ground will twist your arms more?

 If you were riding at 5mph on top of a train that goes 50mph and your wheel turned off, until you hit the ground the forces and trajectories are the same as if you were riding at 55mph on the ground.

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

My foot hit the pavement first, followed by my knee and leg, followed by my hand and arm, followed by my shoulder.

Once your foot and other parts hit the ground, that’s when the kinetic energy probably turns into an angular momentum faster at faster speeds. Unless you would then slide more.

 

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

breaking some and recovering if a real drag. It is not worth it.

I fully agree! Outside those few 29mph moments I’m a rather careful rider. To me lowering the chances for collisions and crashes is worth taking it easier and giving more space for the other idiots out there. Everybody knows that pedestrians act unpredictably, bicyclists cut blind corners, and car drivers sometimes either don’t see you or do something they shouldn’t. It’s an easy equation for me.