Begode Extreme 2400wh: 134V, 16", Suspension, 77lb

[Cerbera]

3 minutes ago, DjPanJan said:

And dont forget Cooch is "lightweight" rider.

The fact that he is a lightweight rider makes it even more mysterious why he was on 2/3 bars after just 15 mins of riding. My master takes about 2 hours of medium speed riding to get anything like that low. Wouldn't be surprised to find there is something wrong with that specific machine rather than the model as a whole...

[trailless]

6 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

The fact that he is a lightweight rider makes it even more mysterious why he was on 2/3 bars after just 15 mins of riding. My master takes about 2 hours of medium speed riding to get anything like that low. Wouldn't be surprised to find there is something wrong with that specific machine rather than the model as a whole...

The only thing that makes sense is that 2 battery packs weren't functional. Unless he was riding the beeps for 15min straight.

[jimjam.nyc]

This wheel should have been called the extreme fan boy. And I don't mean fanboy of Begode.. This wheel suffered from Chance being a fanboy of himself. Being so emotionally involved, and unable to make proper decisions with the design of this wheel has lead to it being a bit of a dud. The potential issues of the c40 and weak battery were well known long before this wheel released. Its been fixed already, its called the EX30. S18 suffered from similar issues with small battery. Its nothing new. I am surprised at begode for not taking more consideration to this aspect. 

I have no issues with Chance, but his posts and reactions to feedback during the development and testing of this wheel were almost surely pointing to there being potential issues. 

Having the community members being the main driving force for engineering decisions is terrible. The V12 suffered similar issues due to the same reasons.. I think using the riders for feedback and input is a great idea.. But letting them design these wheels from ground up, and promote them as "their" wheels is terrible for everyone involved. 

 

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

But the Master has the same 134.4 V, 4P battery configuration, and Begode had spend many, many months and revisions on this setup, after the first customer received the wheel. Weren't the only major changes made were to the motor, controller, firmware, and tire diameter? 

You forget 5-6 vastly different revisions of the motherboard.

15 minutes ago, trailless said:

The only thing that makes sense is that 2 battery packs weren't functional. Unless he was riding the beeps for 15min straight.

Shouldn't a Smart BMS be able to pick up on that? 😅

[jimjam.nyc]

Just now, Rawnei said:

You forget 5-6 vastly different revisions of the motherboard.

I think also forgetting same early cutout issues as well. If I remember the master has similar very abrupt cutout potential after beeps in the beginning.

[jimjam.nyc]

27 minutes ago, trailless said:

The only thing that makes sense is that 2 battery packs weren't functional. Unless he was riding the beeps for 15min straight.

What is the point of the Smart BMS then? Shouldn't it catch this type of thing before it becomes a cutout? There is really no reason for a wheel that is being marketed as being so advanced to let malfunctioning battery packs become a potential injury. If it turns out this was a battery issue, it doesnt make it a good thing.. It just means the smart BMS is pointless, and also still shows a lack of testing and care with developing the wheel.

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by jimjam.nyc
Adding thoughts

[stizl]

2 hours ago, daniel1234 said:

best case scenario - 134v* 4 cells*10a discharge. 5400w is max energy in - nothing is 100 percent effective. With that load you will kill 2400 wh battery in 20 minutes and overheat cells. With samsung 50E - battery must be extreme limitation there on Extreme.

 

ps.: somebody please prove me wrong. I wanted to buy this wheel

A couple of thoughts here: First, the 50E batteries are rated at ~10A continuous and ~15A peak. 

Second, if you go ride hard up a steep hill while logging on an EUC app, you may see a peak wattage logged around 5-6kW, but sustaining that level of power consumption is difficult without trying. You’d need something like a very steep and long mountain road with great traction or just to ride the beeps at max speed continuously to kill a battery that fast.

I recall Hsiang in has Patton review calling it a “glass cannon” because he could kill the batteries in 20mi when riding WFO in high-speed mode, but it’s still his favorite wheel last I saw. 

I regularly ride my Patton fairly hard on a two-hr, 40mi lap of mixed on/off road and have battery left and don’t feel limited by speed or power at the end. I’ve also done 60mi rides with average speed of 15mph and had to engage low-power mode once at the very end, but the wheel still worked fine could climb hills, cruise at 20mph, etc. 

Bottom line, you can have hours of fairly unrestricted fun with 4P 126/134V and still keep a decent safety margin. For the record, I don’t use high-speed mode. 40mph is plenty fast on a 16 inch wheel, or any wheel for that matter, for me. Something was wrong with Chooch’s wheel, if his mileage and battery remaining claims were correct. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by stizl

[techyiam]

47 minutes ago, trailless said:

I preordered the EX30 early on and I remember they kept delaying the release because they were making changes. They took their time with the ex30 but they seem to have rushed the extreme... The c40 motor might just be too power hungry for such a small battery. The ex30 gets saved with the 3600wh though. 

The first post in the Begode Extreme thread was dated April, 2023.

Chance mentioned on Facebook that he was contacted by Begode's CEO in January or February of this year.

The first post in the Veteran Patton thread was dated Feb, 2023.

Right now we are at the very end of August 2023. Is this rushed? The Extreme is not a from the ground up new model. It is more like a T4 Pro. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by techyiam

[Rawnei]

27 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The first post in the Begode Extreme thread was dated April, 2023.

Chance mentioned on Facebook that he was contacted by Begode's CEO in January or February of this year.

The first post in the Veteran Patton thread was dated Feb, 2023.

Right now we are at the very end of August 2023. Is this rushed? The Extreme is not a from the ground up new model. It is more like a T4 Pro. 

I don't see the relevancy here, usually when LK info starts coming out they are near production, they work in silence.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I don't see the relevancy here, usually when LK info starts coming out they are near production, they work in silence.

I was replying to the question as to whether the Begode Extreme was rushed out. 

[Rawnei]

Just now, techyiam said:

I was replying to the question as to whether the Begode Extreme was rushed out. 

And I don't see how comparing to forum posts about Extreme or Patton has any relevancy to answering that question.

[Vince.Fab]

Even with a weak battery and big motor,  properly set up (and working) PWM tiltback should have saved the two high speed crashes I've heard about.

I have a couple thousand miles on Freestyler's firmware and am 100% confident in pushing even with lower battery percentages and being a heavier 240lb rider.  

Also have an Extreme on order so it should be interesting to see how it performs. 

[eezo]

7 hours ago, Vince.Fab said:

Even with a weak battery and big motor,  properly set up (and working) PWM tiltback should have saved the two high speed crashes I've heard about.

This is the only relevant point and needs to be everyone's takeaway.

It's absolutely possible for conditions to push a wheel to a point where it's at risk of cutting out of having an overlean crash. The point is that the wheel's internal programming is supposed to detect risk conditions and warn the rider well before that happens, and that clearly didn't happen here. Were only 2 packs connected? That's relevant for evaluating why the wheel was at risk of cutting out, it's not relevant when evaluating why the wheel did cut out.

There is one and only one reason why the wheel cut out: The allegedly smart BMS failed to do its job. And if you can't rely on the smart BMS to do its job in this situation, how can you trust it to detect any of the other possible risk scenarios?

[MadVlad]

Chooch has a lot of experience, he rides hard, the fact that the wheel dumped him without him having any chance to react to warnings tells me something is wrong with that wheel, maybe its the design, maybe some packs got disconnected or something, but something is off.

[Eyss]

1 hour ago, eezo said:

There is one and only one reason why the wheel cut out: The allegedly smart BMS failed to do its job. And if you can't rely on the smart BMS to do its job in this situation, how can you trust it to detect any of the other possible risk scenarios?

How would the smart bms do its job if it's not plugged in? 

The controller should sense that it doesn't have all packs, but I guess the 134v connector board needs a 'smart BMS' too. 

It's easy enough to test if this was the issue or not though. Chooch has too much pride so he will never admit he's wrong, but anybody with a extreme can disconnect 1 pack/2packs and see if it still rides.

[eezo]

30 minutes ago, Eyss said:

How would the smart bms do its job if it's not plugged in? 

The controller should sense that it doesn't have all packs, but I guess the 134v connector board needs a 'smart BMS' too.

Well.. yeah, isn't that obvious? If the controller doesn't detect that the BMS is unplugged, what's the point? 

[eezo]

38 minutes ago, Eyss said:

Chooch has too much pride so he will never admit he's wrong, but anybody with a extreme can disconnect 1 pack/2packs and see if it still rides.

I have no specific affinity for chooch, but what would he be wrong about? The wheel didn't warn him and it cut out on him. This was supposed to not happen on this wheel because of all the smart improvements. Clearly the alleged improvements didn't work.

[Eyss]

8 minutes ago, eezo said:

Well.. yeah, isn't that obvious? If the controller doesn't detect that the BMS is unplugged, what's the point? 

Well personally I think individual cell group health is very useful. Helps detect bad packs without opening them up. 

 

2 minutes ago, eezo said:

but what would he be wrong about?

That he pushed a demo wheel to its limits without checking what safety features it has first, or that he (/dealer) assembled it correctly.

Even inmotion had cut outs with the v12. 

[eezo]

7 minutes ago, Eyss said:

That he pushed a demo wheel to its limits without checking what safety features it has first, or that he (/dealer) assembled it correctly.

You're missing the point again.

A smart BMS is supposed to tell you when something is wrong. If it didn't do that, it's a failure of the device, full stop.

[Eyss]

12 minutes ago, eezo said:

smart BMS is supposed to tell you when something is wrong. If it didn't do that, it's a failure of the device, full stop.

Smart BMS is a general term isn't it? It's like saying a mcm5 should go to 90kph because a v13 can. 

[eezo]

2 minutes ago, Eyss said:

Smart BMS is a general term isn't it? It's like saying a mcm5 should go to 90kph because a v13 can. 

[Eyss]

Sure. Link me to a official/ well accepted term for smart BMS. Because my understanding is a smart BMS simply measures the individual cell groups where as a non smart BMS does not. It's 'dumb' because it just charges and discharges and has no clue what's going on. 

The Sherman would tilt back if one of the BMS was broken or not detected, and that had a 'dumb' BMS

[stizl]

1 hour ago, Eyss said:

Chooch has too much pride so he will never admit he's wrong, but anybody with a extreme can disconnect 1 pack/2packs and see if it still rides.

I do recall one Chooch video from his desk where he admitted to using a clickbait title about a V12(? maybe) cutout and also admitted being possibly wrong about if/why it cut out.

Nobody knows if he’s wrong here, but I give him the benefit of the doubt for now, especially considering the BMS issue mentioned above and how experienced he is. Also, after his shock pivot busted after 21mi then this cutout…I’d be pissed too. 

it looks like Begode knew about this shock issue too. Denis Hagov specifically mentions the extra wide shock top for the shock they sent him for the Extreme. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by stizl

[eezo]

So everything I said about smart BMS, warnings, rider feedback, etc, is still what I think in general.

That being said, I read elsewhere that his actual speed was likely between 38-47mph (based on time elapsed in video and the standard-length dashed road lines in the video), and also that he had changed the PWM alarm percentage to 90%. Those factors combined with a ~50% battery percentage, it's highly likely that his acceleration/speed up an incline, when combined with a 90% PWM alarm, the power demand would cause a voltage drop so severe that it would drop the wheel before it could even have time to warn the rider.

So rider error is seeming more and more likely after all.

[Eyss]

58 minutes ago, eezo said:

So rider error is seeming more and more likely after all

Rather than hurting the extreme reputation it actually helps it

"The extreme is so comfortable at speed 50mph feels like 35mph" 😅