Begode Extreme 2400wh: 134V, 16", Suspension, 77lb

[Rawnei]

23 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

 But I've never seen the safety margin go below 20% and that includes going 52 mph on 50% battery with the BG Master several times.

Unless you weigh like 40kg I don't believe this one bit.

[onkeldanuel]

28 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

Unless you weigh like 40kg I don't believe this one bit.

First Screenshot :

here you can see 17% Safetymargin at 70 KPH GPS (wheelspeed showing already corrected with -9% !!) -->flat ground gravel

On the 2. Screenshot I pulled 12KW on highspeed uphill offroad/trail where the Safetymargin was at 13% if i remember correctly (not on screenshot unfortanatly) .

This wheel is insanely capable (Voltagesag was noticable while pulling 12000W though) 

All was done with 75% PWM set (not reached) ...no tiltback (beep at 12KW and me slowed down automatically, would have triggered tiltback at this moment it beeped of course)  , 

Im 85Kg geared, thats the facts i can tell 

Its not that the safetymargin from eucworld corresponds fully to the Begode PWM i guess...

Edited October 9, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[Rawnei]

18 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

First Screenshot :

here you can see 17% Safetymargin at 70 KPH GPS (wheelspeed showing already corrected with -9% !!) -->flat ground gravel

On the 2. Screenshot I pulled 12KW on highspeed uphill offroad/trail where the Safetymargin was at 13% if i remember correctly (not on screenshot unfortanatly) .

This wheel is insanely capable (Voltagesag was noticable while pulling 12000W though) 

All was done with 75% PWM set (not reached) ...no tiltback (beep at 12KW and me slowed down automatically, would have triggered tiltback at this moment it beeped of course)  , 

Im 85Kg geared, thats the facts i can tell 

Its not that the safetymargin from eucworld corresponds fully to the Begode PWM i guess...

Not sure I understand? He said he was going 52mph (83.5kmh!) on a 4P Master with 50% battery charge and not even going above 80% PWM doing so which is highly unlikely, your data is not even the same scenario?

[Ronin]

 

[Timwheel]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Not sure I understand? He said he was going 52mph (83.5kmh!) on a 4P Master with 50% battery charge and not even going above 80% PWM doing so which is highly unlikely, your data is not even the same scenario?

I'm not sure I remember correctly but with a 70% pwm limit and 30-35% sagged battery I could go 70 km/h while seated ... I had to check that my alarms were indeed on when I got home by lifting the wheel and feeling for the tilt-back. It did work as expected. I'm 87kgs, but when accelerating seated I don't pull that much amp as I tend to be conservative once under 50% battery.

[Elliott Reitz]

14 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Unless you weigh like 40kg I don't believe this one bit.

Well I guess I wasn't following it as close as I thought.  I weigh 160 lbs.  I did just see an old screen shot with 9% safety margin on a 51.4 mph ride.   But the bulk of rides under 50 mph had >15% when it was screen-shot'ed. So no, sorry, they weren't all >20%.  That 9% at 51.4 mph was the lowest i had recorded (on the Master, I traded the Extreme after 1 ride reaching 47.7 mph).  

[onkeldanuel]

Little Update again regarding suspension/dampers....if you want to use an aftermarket shock there is really a lot going to happen . Now i testet everything with an Rockshox Vivid Air which is in my opinion the best shock all around for EUC use....

Its an high volume airshock tho....

You are restricted to about 100mm travel with any real shock with stock linkage regardeless of using hard hole or softhole (doesnt work with no shock then stock anyways) 

Because the Shocks Aircan or spring for an Coilshock or whatelse will hit the main linkage mounting pivot above that 100mm wheeltravel...regareless if soft or hard hole (2-3mm difference)

The stock coil shock wont hit it because: the stock coil ues an spring with an lower diameter then any other real shock manufacturer (at least 5-10mm less outer diameter-->its only 30mm inner diameter-->fox is 35mm, rockshox is 38mm for example) then for example fox or rockshox -->because of that the begode spring wont fit any aftermarket shock like fox, rockshox , cane creek tho.....

Lets be clear: if you want to upgrade to an real shock and want to use the whole 115mm wheeltravel then you have to wait for an aftermarket linkage! 

Im happy with 100mm and Vivid Air in hardhole...i printed tpu bumpers to restrict the stanchion travel to 100mm very very max  to be safe from bottomouts at the shock/linkage 

Its way better to use fox,rockshox with 100mm travel then stock shox with 115mm imo 

Edited October 10, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[Vince.Fab]

Went on a local trail ride with a group of 10 e-mtb guys today.   They neglected to say that apparently it was "Rock Garden Wednesday". 

Happy to say that the Extreme (50e) definitely held its own and I was able to keep pace with them despite losing momentum in the rocks. 

16 miles total and battery got down to 65% at the end of the ride.  Never once was there a feeling of over torqueing the motor.   I've run some of these trails on an RSHT and it was beyond brutal.   Still running stock pads for now but they are completely usable. 

Attached is a safety margin/battery % Chart.  It's such a strong performer offroad, and even with the stock suspension needing to be replaced, it's 1000% my favorite wheel.  

Currently I have 40 hard trail miles on the X link and Marzocchi Bomber with 650# spring.  It's close to perfect with my 260lb riding weight.  The Shinko 241 is awesome in the corners,  even on leaves!

Edited October 12, 2023 by Vince.Fab

[buffs]

59 minutes ago, Vince.Fab said:

Currently I have 40 hard trail miles on the X link and Marzocchi Bomber with 650# spring.  It's close to perfect with my 260lb riding weight.  The Shinko 241 is awesome in the corners,  even on leaves!

 

Do you have any video of the suspension in action?

[Vince.Fab]

14 minutes ago, buffs said:

Do you have any video of the suspension in action?

I have a good amount of 360 vid but need to edit and the audio was crap.  I plan on wearing a mic next time out.  Here's a short clip, shows the linkage movement

 

 

[onkeldanuel]

Pne thing that should be noticed about the extreme is, that the BMS functionality is awesome. Its nice to be able to see this cellgroupvoltages at anytime and equalization happens nonstop ...look at this non existent imbalance , it awesome... every wheel should have this functionality for peace of mind atleast 

Edited October 12, 2023 by onkeldanuel

[Vince.Fab]

@onkeldanuel totally agree, the smart bms is very nice to have!  Couple questions for you,  what voltage does your Extreme stop charging at?  And have you ever seen the Balancing active? 

Mine only charges to 132v despite the charger outputting 134v and there is a decent drain.   I'm assuming this is typical Begode charge board behavior but wanted to double check.  

Edited October 12, 2023 by Vince.Fab

[onkeldanuel]

4 minutes ago, Vince.Fab said:

@onkeldanuel totally agree, the smart bms is very nice to have!  Couple questions for you,  what voltage does your Extreme stop charging at?  And have you ever seen the Balancing active? 

Mine only charges to 132v despite the charger outputting 134v and there is a decent drain.   I'm assuming this is typical Begode charge board behavior but wanted to double check.  

I believe it was 133,4 last time i checked, have to look....,but should be good anyways (doesnt matter in the 132-134 V -Range) 

[buffs]

35 minutes ago, onkeldanuel said:

I believe it was 133,4 last time i checked, have to look....,but should be good anyways (doesnt matter in the 132-134 V -Range) 

Mine only charges to 133.4 as well, and I've never seen the balancing state active.

[Elliott Reitz]

On 10/12/2023 at 12:26 AM, Vince.Fab said:

I have a good amount of 360 vid but need to edit and the audio was crap.  I plan on wearing a mic next time out.  Here's a short clip, shows the linkage movement

Thanks for doing all that!  Any info on where to get a copy of those linkages?

Meanwhile I just purchased a 200mm DNM RCP-2S shock for my Extreme.  I'm hoping its compression adjustment will prevent bottoming sorta like adding to the spring rate near the end of rapid full compression.   Stiction via the slider bushing set screws trades off small-bump-stiffness vs bottoming on 6" curb drops.  And it still has excess stiction in that it still sticks compressed with shock disconnected (need to pry it apart, it doesn't just drop when lifted).  I've already removed the seat and may have to remove the cap-plate to fit he DNM shock onto the Extrem w/ original linkages. 

[Elliott Reitz]

On 9/29/2023 at 1:36 AM, Planemo said:

Good analysis!

I'm sure you're aware but just be careful that linear curves can be tricky when using a coil though as it's nice to have a bit of progression. You may need to use a progressive spring to make it supple enough off the top but stiff enough later in the travel to not blow through.

Heres a pic of a few leverage curves, my bike is the blue one which gives 2.7 at start of travel to 2.32 at full compression which would work well with a standard (non progressive) type spring. Funnily enough the bike comes stock with an airshock which as you know adds even more progression but the manufacturer uses the same frame on their coil shock variants so it's not surprising they built some progression in.

 

 

On 10/1/2023 at 1:59 AM, Vince.Fab said:

@Planemo this suspension stuff is really interesting!  its really cool what you can do when you have control over the design.  The Extreme does get pretty tight though. 

Ive finalized my custom linkage and have hardware on the way.  Fully 3d printed the prototype to make sure the shock wouldn't top or bottom out easily and measured at 10% travel points.  Plotted a ratio chart and effective spring force with a 550lber.  Really interested to hear your thoughts

The shock is the same as the s22 (240x75 or 9.5x3) because it's know to have good big jump abilities and the travel is close.  Effective travel on the Extreme is 115mm, 130 minus 5mm stoppers on the bottom and 10mm rings on the top.

I'll probably make a separate thread to geek out on this stuff lol

Note the KS-S20/S22/S22Pro linkage goes from 3:1 to 1.1:1 through its stroke.  That's way more progressive than typical bicycle setups.  I have a 350 lbs spring with rollers in my old S20 and I can say I've its never bottomed hard and its really soft feeling at the top.  It feels ideal!  (I have the rebound and compression fully fast/open/disabled).  

Edited October 14, 2023 by Elliott Reitz
1.1

[Planemo]

24 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I'm hoping its compression adjustment will prevent bottoming sorta like adding to the spring rate near the end of rapid full compression.

Extreme damping compression to control bottom-outs isn't the answer as I'm sure you know.

24 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Stiction via the slider bushing set screws trades off small-bump-stiffness vs bottoming on 6" curb drops.

As per your above quote.

Adding excessive compression damping will feel very much like adding stiction. You'll muller your small-bump. But I appreciate you are trying to do what you can with the current setup.

[Planemo]

39 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

And it still has excess stiction in that it still sticks compressed with shock disconnected (need to pry it apart, it doesn't just drop when lifted).

I meant to say I'm confident that it's because the width between the fork sliders at the motor axle when bolted up isn't the same as the width of the top of the sliders. I went through all this with my MTB forks and during testing I found that even a difference of 0.5mm at the axle was enough to induce measurable stiction. I'm pretty sure that Begode won't be working to those tolerances hence we find stiction at certain points during the travel. Usually it will be at max extension or max compression. Mine is similar to yours - at max compression. Given how easy it is to slide the stock motor spacers between the motor and the sliders I suspect that clamping everything up is pulling the sliders together and causing binding at max compression. The answer of course is to make up some shims to fill the gap. But to do the job properly requires a total stripdown and a fair bit of measuring/testing which I'm not inclined to do right now, especially as I don't notice it when riding. It was only when I removed the shock and dropped the wheel to max compression that it took a fair yank by hand to pull it free again. I have no doubt that a compressed 750lb spring would achieve it no problem. But clearly it's not right and it bugs me. 

[Elliott Reitz]

24 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Extreme damping compression to control bottom-outs isn't the answer as I'm sure you know.

As per your above quote.

Adding excessive compression damping will feel very much like adding stiction. You'll muller your small-bump. But I appreciate you are trying to do what you can with the current setup.

I don't know... so I just test the theory on my S20 that already has a DNM shock - see video!

3 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I meant to say I'm confident that it's because the width between the fork sliders at the motor axle when bolted up isn't the same as the width of the top of the sliders. I went through all this with my MTB forks and during testing I found that even a difference of 0.5mm at the axle was enough to induce measurable stiction. I'm pretty sure that Begode won't be working to those tolerances hence we find stiction at certain points during the travel. Usually it will be at max extension or max compression. Mine is similar to yours - at max compression. Given how easy it is to slide the stock motor spacers between the motor and the sliders I suspect that clamping everything up is pulling the sliders together and causing binding at max compression. The answer of course is to make up some shims to fill the gap. But to do the job properly requires a total stripdown and a fair bit of measuring/testing which I'm not inclined to do right now, especially as I don't notice it when riding. It was only when I removed the shock and dropped the wheel to max compression that it took a fair yank by hand to pull it free again. I have no doubt that a compressed 750lb spring would achieve it no problem. But clearly it's not right and it bugs me. 

Too much stiction is still a problem in my Extreme.  It is sliding better with the 750 lbs spring than it did with the 900 lbs spring (seemed it had more problems than just travel).  I'm hoping it will "wear in".  If not I'm intending to do a motor and tire swap to a 80/100-12 knobby (I may have to remove slider-assembly and trim tire-clearance).   

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Elliott Reitz
+

[Planemo]

1 minute ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Per your posts I just did this test on my S20/S22.  Basically I tested the compression for adding the desired effect as well as its effect on the smaller bumps.

As I say, it will help but it's far from ideal. I forgot to mention that you also risk blowing out your damping circuit if you are using it as a crutch for insufficient spring rating. Maybe stay away from hard drops...

 

[Elliott Reitz]

6 minutes ago, Planemo said:

As I say, it will help but it's far from ideal. I forgot to mention that you also risk blowing out your damping circuit if you are using it as a crutch for insufficient spring rating. Maybe stay away from hard drops...

For me THAT is the only benefit to the compression chamber.  So if it blows its just back to stock bottom outs.

[Vince.Fab]

Anyone else having issues bending the stock steel pedal rods?  Mine started to bend and make disassembly a chore so in went some Titanium 6AL-4V ones.  They are half the weight and save about 65 grams along with being stronger. 

 

 

[Hellkitten]

@Vince.Fab I know a bunch of riders that did a group buy on titanium rods to replace the stock ones. 

[Elliott Reitz]

7 hours ago, Vince.Fab said:

Anyone else having issues bending the stock steel pedal rods?  Mine started to bend and make disassembly a chore so in went some Titanium 6AL-4V ones.  They are half the weight and save about 65 grams along with being stronger. 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Hellkitten said:

@Vince.Fab I know a bunch of riders that did a group buy on titanium rods to replace the stock ones. 

Where do you get those?  Link?

[Vince.Fab]

@Elliott Reitz I bought the 6AL-4V solid bar stock myself and made them.   I do have six or do extra sets, message me.  

 

The really interesting part is that Begode hasn't changed the diameter and I've beaten my RST pedals offroad with high speed clips and slamming down on rocks, still straight.   The Extreme's slightly narrower hanger might have something to do with it.

It's possible to bend them enough to where they are very hard to remove.   Better to replace before that happens imo.