Begode Extreme 2400wh: 134V, 16", Suspension, 77lb

[Elliott Reitz]

I got my Extreme last week.  Note I'm trading my Extreme for another T4 and putting a real knobby on a T4.  Once complete one of them becomes a fam Christmas gift.  As for the Extreme, its more of a road wheel rather than rapid response like I need with the dogs and get with the T4.  

Here's the Extreme in the wrong use-case for it.  I also rode it to work once and reached 47.7 mph on it (as I do daily on a Master).  It's really a nice road-wheel and just not twitchy and quick stop/start like a T4 for the dog-trail use-case.  As for the road use case its about even with the Master I already have but the Master is better-adapted pads wise with a Michelin tire for speed too.  

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Elliott Reitz

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

As for the road use case its about even with the Master I already have but the Master is better-adapted pads wise with a Michelin tire for speed too.  

Are you still using stock suspension links on your Master? Does the Extreme have better suspension than a stock Master?

[Elliott Reitz]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

Are you still using stock suspension links on your Master? Does the Extreme have better suspension than a stock Master?

I have a 650 lbs spring on the Master.  I can bottom it with a 1" drop or a 35 mph speed bump.  No perceived need for progressive or more travel on the road use case. 

As for the extreme the extreme the preload not to bottom w/ 900lbs spring makes it stiff AF for normal road riding.  Maybe the updates that are to be shipped out will make it better.  But for the off-road use case they need a progressive linkage, not this 1/2 assed regressive linkage that's common to all the Begode wheels.  Note such progressive suspension is the ONLY thing KS has going for it IMHO.

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I have a 650 lbs spring on the Master.  I can bottom it with a 1" drop or a 35 mph speed bump.  No perceived need for progressive or more travel on the road use case. 

Thank you for your reply.

Interesting that you don't need much suspension for your road-going Master.

I about to embark on my suspension journey with an S22 for urban commuting.

The slider action, out-of-the-box, is criminal. I am very surprised that Kingsongd would released a wheel with a slider that performs that poorly. The sliders in my later batch S22 prior to the S22 Pro models is not much better than the original S20 samples that were released as demo wheels.

As to poor low end torque, I still haven't ridden it yet. I am still working on the sliders. I hope that there is enough torque for my use case. But the early batch S22 with a supposedly original firmware that I test rode was completely gutless. I hope mine with newer firmware will be better.

Having said that, I did knowingly buy the S22 as a project wheel. I thought I would try it since I really like the way it rides, chassis-wise, and it was heavily discounted.

 

[Rawnei]

13 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Thank you for your reply.

Interesting that you don't need much suspension for your road-going Master.

I about to embark on my suspension journey with an S22 for urban commuting.

The slider action, out-of-the-box, is criminal. I am very surprised that Kingsongd would released a wheel with a slider that performs that poorly. The sliders in my later batch S22 prior to the S22 Pro models is not much better than the original S20 samples that were released as demo wheels.

As to poor low end torque, I still haven't ridden it yet. I am still working on the sliders. I hope that there is enough torque for my use case. But the early batch S22 with a supposedly original firmware that I test rode was completely gutless. I hope mine with newer firmware will be better.

Having said that, I did knowingly buy the S22 as a project wheel. I thought I would try it since I really like the way it rides, chassis-wise, and it was heavily discounted.

 

If you get the Pro motor and install it (you don't need a new controller) that is a huge torque upgrade, night and day difference.

That said S22 stock motor is not that bad, it's a bit exaggerated.

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

If you get the Pro motor and install it (you don't need a new controller) that is a huge torque upgrade, night and day difference.

Thanks, good to know. Do you lose top speed with the Pro motor?

6 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

That said S22 stock motor is not that bad, it's a bit exaggerated.

That would be great. I don't need to climb steep slopes. If my S22 accelerates like my Abrams, that would be nice.

[Rawnei]

29 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Thanks, good to know. Do you lose top speed with the Pro motor?

That would be great. I don't need to climb steep slopes. If my S22 accelerates like my Abrams, that would be nice.

No noticeable speed decrease, freespin is a few kmh slower but not noticeable you think about when riding, just keep in mind topping out the S22 can be dangerous as the tiltback is based on speed not PWM so PWM alerts that you can hear is important if you wanna ride fast.

Acceleration shouldn't be a problem, some local riders have S22 stock motor and doing some pretty demanding things in the forest.

[Vince.Fab]

Prototype is ready for testing!  550lb spring gives me almost the perfect amount of sag for a 240lb rider.  Progressive linkage magic!

Edited October 3, 2023 by Vince.Fab

[Rawnei]

30 minutes ago, Vince.Fab said:

Prototype is ready for testing!  550lb spring gives me almost the perfect amount of sag for a 240lb rider.  Progressive linkage magic!

First the Master, then the T4, then the EX30 now the Extreme, seems there are plenty of competent people Begode could consult regarding link design. 😅

[Vince.Fab]

PSA for all Extreme owners that switch to a Shinko 241 "Golden Boy".  

Just got done with a good trail day complete with jumps and drops.   Unfortunately the tire had some clearance issues.

My working theory is that the tire can have so much deformation under bottoming out that you can actually slice the sidewall with the lower part of the frame that holds the battery's.   

I think we can get away with putting a nice filet on the inside of that bracket  so that it rubs instead of cut the tire in the worst case scenario.  

I'm running 38ish psi as well so it's not that.   At least these little tires are cheap and the Extreme is easy to work on.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

50 minutes ago, Vince.Fab said:

At least these little tires are cheap

Looks like more of a split than a slice, not that i am some tire expert but that's what it looks like. Almost like the rubber was dry rotted or poorly made rubber compound that cracked instead of flexing during one of your jumps.

[buffs]

1 hour ago, Vince.Fab said:

PSA for all Extreme owners that switch to a Shinko 241 "Golden Boy".  

Just got done with a good trail day complete with jumps and drops.   Unfortunately the tire had some clearance issues.

My working theory is that the tire can have so much deformation under bottoming out that you can actually slice the sidewall with the lower part of the frame that holds the battery's.   

I think we can get away with putting a nice filet on the inside of that bracket  so that it rubs instead of cut the tire in the worst case scenario.  

I'm running 38ish psi as well so it's not that.   At least these little tires are cheap and the Extreme is easy to work on.

How did your fancy new linkage work out?

[Vince.Fab]

48 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Looks like more of a split than a slice, not that i am some tire expert but that's what it looks like. Almost like the rubber was dry rotted or poorly made rubber compound that cracked instead of flexing during one of your jumps.

 Definitely sliced by the frame,  the tire is cut on both sides at the same height on the sidewall.

17 minutes ago, buffs said:

How did your fancy new linkage work out?

I brought a 360 cam to record the whole thing.   It worked better than expected and couldn't break it.  Had to up the compression adjustment a tad bit more than I liked to mask not having a strong enough spring.  I think a 600 or 650 will be perfect.  I really want an S22 rider to give it a go

Edited October 4, 2023 by Vince.Fab

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, Vince.Fab said:

PSA for all Extreme owners that switch to a Shinko 241 "Golden Boy".  

Just got done with a good trail day complete with jumps and drops.   Unfortunately the tire had some clearance issues.

My working theory is that the tire can have so much deformation under bottoming out that you can actually slice the sidewall with the lower part of the frame that holds the battery's.   

I think we can get away with putting a nice filet on the inside of that bracket  so that it rubs instead of cut the tire in the worst case scenario.  

I'm running 38ish psi as well so it's not that.   At least these little tires are cheap and the Extreme is easy to work on.

Oh wow that sucks, didn't know the battery boxes went that low on the Extreme

[Planemo]

14 hours ago, Vince.Fab said:

I think we can get away with putting a nice filet on the inside of that bracket  so that it rubs instead of cut the tire in the worst case scenario.  

The EX30 has a similar situation at full compression too. I guess it's only really a problem if the tyre contact patch moves forward and up, like when hitting the side of a tall kerb. I think you're right regarding carving out that edge, it'd be quick job with an angle grinder, could prob even do it with the wheel still fitted if careful although I know you'll be wanting to pull it out to do the tyre.

Out of interest, would you be able to measure how much clearance you have between the tyre and that edge whilst static. I would like to compare it to what I have. Cheers!

[Vince.Fab]

@Planemo sucks to find out the hard way and having to trash a tire with 50 miles on it.   At least those brackets are very easy to remove,  7 bolts per side and they come right off.  I do see an opportunity to slightly redesign them and give them a bit more strength as well. 

Unloaded, the tire has 1/2" of clearance from the bracket to the side wall. 

[jmsjms]

 

I am curious: Is there no tilt-back setup option... so that when the battery is drained, the wheel does not allow the rider to push it fast?

Edited October 8, 2023 by jmsjms

[Vince.Fab]

Too good to not share

[Unipilot69]

7 hours ago, jmsjms said:

 

I am curious: Is there no tilt-back setup option... so that when the battery is drained, the wheel does not allow the rider to push it fast?

I thought I found the setting in the Begode app but they only offer speed tilt back. EucWorld has the Extreme added now. It has the pwm tilt back option in the settings.

[jmsjms]

I am trying to understand the app screenshot above: The safety margin alarm & tilt back will happen at 25% of what? Of speed? But of what speed?

Yes, I wish, there was an option to be 25% (or other selected number) of battery capacity left. If this is the case, wouldn't this issue be resolved then? I am trying to like this wheel, but without a setting for tilt back in order to prevent a cutoff, I am not comfortable liking it.

 

[onkeldanuel]

7 minutes ago, jmsjms said:

I am trying to understand the app screenshot above: The safety margin alarm & tilt back will happen at 25% of what? Of speed? But of what speed?

Yes, I wish, there was an option to be 25% (or other selected number) of battery capacity left. If this is the case, wouldn't this issue be resolved then? I am trying to like this wheel, but without a setting for tilt back in order to prevent a cutoff, I am not comfortable liking it.

 

25% is the left safetymargin which equals to 75% pwm tiltback

[Unipilot69]

With EucWorld that would be 75% pwm. I'm a heavy weight and prefer a little more headroom. Initially I set my EX.N ht pwm tiltback at 70%. After extensive testing, it's now at 75%. My EX.N has @Freestylercustom firmware. I'll test the Extreme when my wrist is out of a cast. Probably won't happen until next month.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

14 hours ago, jmsjms said:

 

 

Chooch is a mad man, that spinning the tire backwards while going forward @8:25 to 8:30 is quite impressive i must say.

[Istrich]

I tested tilt back at 50% pwm and it works. The charge was about 70%. With my weight at 215 lbs, 50% pwm on a flat road is 25mph.

Also, the first and second beep for 10% (40%) and 5% (45%) before the pwm value (50%) works.

All this is relevant for the latest firmware (20230922 "Extreme Multi PWM Alarm")

[Elliott Reitz]

On 10/8/2023 at 2:39 PM, jmsjms said:

I am trying to understand the app screenshot above: The safety margin alarm & tilt back will happen at 25% of what? Of speed? But of what speed?

Yes, I wish, there was an option to be 25% (or other selected number) of battery capacity left. If this is the case, wouldn't this issue be resolved then? I am trying to like this wheel, but without a setting for tilt back in order to prevent a cutoff, I am not comfortable liking it.

On 10/9/2023 at 2:19 AM, Istrich said:

I tested tilt back at 50% pwm and it works. The charge was about 70%. With my weight at 215 lbs, 50% pwm on a flat road is 25mph.

Also, the first and second beep for 10% (40%) and 5% (45%) before the pwm value (50%) works.

All this is relevant for the latest firmware (20230922 "Extreme Multi PWM Alarm")

On 10/8/2023 at 2:49 PM, Unipilot69 said:

With EucWorld that would be 75% pwm. I'm a heavy weight and prefer a little more headroom. Initially I set my EX.N ht pwm tiltback at 70%. After extensive testing, it's now at 75%. My EX.N has @Freestylercustom firmware. I'll test the Extreme when my wrist is out of a cast. Probably won't happen until next month.

I've been watching my safety margin since commuting with MSX-100V, and an S18.  In those the S18 would especially drain and decrease margine by the time I got home.  The KS tiltback corresponded with about a 15% safety margin.  I use that same 15% setting in the app now with all my wheels. 

On my speed wheels I often do see my min safety margin was 20%.  But I've never seen the safety margin go below [correction] 9% and that includes going 52 mph on 50% battery with the BG Master several times.  I also went 47.7 mph on the Extreme with 20% safety margin. 

I have seen my KS-S20 <20% several times including cutouts from its anemic torque on steep slopes.  I do have a 4KW motor on order for that wheel.  

Edited October 14, 2023 by Elliott Reitz
[correction]