How long before you can ride long

[2disbetter]

My feet get seriously tired. I'm a stronger guy, and I don't fatigue easily. It is most likely that I am riding still way too tense. But I am just having a hard time seeing myself ride for an hour. 

Any tips for learning to relax and not be so tense? 

Side note: I feel VERY comfortable on the wheels. On the V12 HT I can carve and make figure 8s. I can spin around in circle, travel REAL slow, etc. I'm not scared to ride the wheels in any way at this point. I think at speed though I tend to get nervous and clamp the wheel, as I've found this stops wobbles. 

[mhpr262]

It is just very hard on the feet because you have to stand very still and with your weight evenly distributed between your feet the whole time.

More routine will certainly make you relax more. Also experiment with other shoes. Footwear with thin, but hard and stiff soles seems to work very well for most people (motorcycle boots).

Experiment a lot with pedal tilt, having the pedals tilted slightly backwards (minus one or two degrees) often makes people feel more "secure" initially, but is hard on the feet and legs (calves especially). Having the pedals tilted slightly forward (plus one or two degrees) seems to be much better for long distances. Footwear with lower and higher heels has a very noticeable influence too

You can improve circulation and make it easier for your feet by moving them a bit - instead of distributing the weight evenly you place all of your weight on the balls of one foot and the heel of the other foot, then reverse that. If you are smooth enough the weight shifting wont even make your wheel wobble.

You can also move one foot closer to the shell and the other farther away on the pedals so you can place more weight on the "closer" foot and rest the other foot for a while, then switch foot positions. Because of the short lever arms of the pedals and hangers even an inch makes a very noticeable difference.

Edited March 2, 2023 by mhpr262

[Timwheel]

Riding for an hour or so at high speed is tiring, whatever your reference is. Sitting on the wheel from time to time helps though

[Raptor]

I've been driving EUC since 2014 and I can hopefully say that I don't get tired until the battery is completely empty . If the entire control is already only intuitive and you have also got the EUC in a setting that suits you exactly, etc. then I haven't felt tired during slow hiking trips lasting more than four hours. In the case of fast drives, the draining of the battery rather bothers me and I haven't been able to enjoy the drive enough     . So don't worry, because after a while it doesn't matter what kind of shoes, etc.

Of course, all of this does not apply to difficult technical trails, because there is a serious physical load, and the appearance of fatigue is unfortunately inevitable

Edited March 2, 2023 by Raptor

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

It is most likely that I am riding still way too tense.

That’s the usual cause. You are using your muscles in a new way, so being strong or even having a good stamina doesn’t help here much. But for how long it takes to be able to relax is surely largely up to the individual. My first 3000km were on wheels with max 14km of range, so I didn’t get to push my limits until later in the game.

 Besides @mhpr262’s great checklist above, I’d experiment with different ride modes. A lot of people have recognized by now that hard riding modes are more exhausting. If you want to maximize the comfort, try Commuter mode at 50-70% pedal hardness and you’ll probably already add a lot of range before exhaustion/pain.

I have found hiking boots to be the most comfortable for me. Which makes sense, as they are specifically designed for prolonged times in the standing position, unlike motorcycle footwear.

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

clamp the wheel, as I've found this stops wobbles. 

Wobbles exist because you’re tense, so that’s a double edged sword. Clamping the wheel is definitely something to learn out from ASAP. If you can’t relax or get wobbles at a certain speed, you’re going too fast for your skills.

Try standing slightly (~1cm) more to the side, so that you’re not hugging the body of the wheel, and so that clamping it would become difficult. But definitely don’t try to break any speed records as you practice new riding positions or fight with exhaustion.

Edited March 2, 2023 by mrelwood

[Cerbera]

2 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Any tips for learning to relax and not be so tense? 

When you become aware of excess tension, move your attention to it briefly and 'manually' let it go - drop your shoulders, lightly swing your arms, bend knees a little more, widen stance and breathe deeply and slowly. Think of yourself as part rag-doll in which you lazily lean in to directional shifts and aim to make every movement you make as smooth and balletic yet as efficient and minimal as possible. I find it helps if one of your constant background aims or thoughts is that you will make this look effortless and easy, and you will do it with grace and style, and I find at least, that from that underlying attitude comes a level of relaxation and contentment that sort of automatically combats stiff positioning and rigid control that leads to over-tension. Try and get a level of 'hysteresis' into all your movements - ease into and out of them if you can. Increase your look-ahead distance so that you can prepare for what is coming in that same slow, even, relaxed way...

Of course there will be emergency bits that snap you right out of that - a pothole you didn't see til waay late, a pedestrian that emerges from a side turning and walks across your path, a dog that might suddenly appear and start chasing you, some loud drilling from workmen nearby - but once you have dealt with things aim to always return to your zen-like calm as soon as possible afterwards.

There is also a lot to be said for simply having a break ! If I have been riding standing for half an hour solid, and there has been a lot of difficult terrain, or intense concentration / weaving required, or my legs suddenly feel numb or fatigued I just get down when it's easy and trolley it for a bit, or stop and have a little rest / slug of rejuvenating tea ! Only needs to be a few minutes to give your legs and thighs a break from the 'riding stance'. Sometimes I have a little sit down on a nearby grassy knoll and just relax the whole body for a while, which more fully resets things for when you climb back aboard !

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Cerbera

[2disbetter]

Thank you everyone. I have had other people tell me that clinching the wheel with my legs to stop wobble is wrong, but I just don't see how being loosey-goosey on the wheel is going to help. I want to try it though. 

That said, I don't experience wobble on the V13 at all. That wheel is so planted and solid. I only get occasional wobble on the V12 HT. I can handle it for the most part. I don't start freaking out or anything, and I just address it. But getting wobble while going 50 is something else. 

I'll try the whole relaxing thing. I agree with you Cerbera on trying to make everything look super easy and that you can do it all super smoothly, etc. I think that is the secret to mastering the wheel. Good thing I really enjoy practicing on these things! Much to my family's chagrin! 

[Cerbera]

1 minute ago, 2disbetter said:

have had other people tell me that clinching the wheel with my legs to stop wobble is wrong, but I just don't see how being loosey-goosey on the wheel is going to help.

I can tell you exactly how it helps ! The wider your stance the more minimal your movements can be to affect direction, the more authority you can exert over the wheel and you get better feedback about where your bodyweight is in relation to what the wheel is doing, so it becomes easier to keep your centre directly over it most of the time.

You are not so much 'loosey-goosey' when trying to fix wobbles as you are 'solidly sinking down' into the wheel, planting the heels in a firm, wide stance, crouching slightly, and exerting your authority that way, rather than by grabbing the shell with your calves, which makes your profile narrower and actually more prone to the tippiness that the wobbling has put there, and with less control over it. If you lock your legs to the shell, and the wobbles become more powerful than your legs can manage, then guess what happens to your legs, and then all of you shortly afterwards ?!

[OldFartRides]

How many total miles do you have under your belt ? A thousand ? Two thousand ?

Two or three hundred is still beginner. Takes time. And miles. 
 I’m still of the opinion that learning on a little wheel is better than these big fast wheels. 
 
Best,

[mhpr262]

1 hour ago, OldFartRides said:

 I’m still of the opinion that learning on a little wheel is better than these big fast wheels. 
 

I second that. I recently got an EX20S (47kg) after more than 10.000 miles on a V10F and a V11 and holy moly that thing is an absolute beast. I wouldnt wish it on anybody having to learn on such a monster. I have about 200 miles on it by now and recently rode my V10F again after that and it only made appreciate the V10F more. It was so nimble, light and effortless compared to the EX20. Anybody who starts out on a huge wheel because "he doesnt want to have to upgrade as soon as he gets bored" is really missing out on the EUC experience with smaller, nimble wheels.

Edited March 2, 2023 by mhpr262

[2disbetter]

Yeah, I have found that the V12 HT is just way more nimble. I really do prefer it also for just ease of use and its practicality when it comes to logistic of moving it around and using it. 

I feel more comfortable on the V12 HT, but I can ride both wheels essentially the same. You just feel that you have a lot more wheel and weight to deal with on the V13 when you need to turn, etc. 

As for which I think it is better to learn on? Not sure. I would prefer smaller. 

When you are first starting out the thing you notice the most is just how big the wheel feels. The idea that you can control that with your feet is not something that is intuitive. Not only that, when you are first learning, you are going to drop your wheel more than once for sure. Better to have a lighter wheel in general for that. 

The properties of riding do not really change with wheel size and weight. It all works the same. For this reason, even though I only had the V12 for 2 weeks before the V13 arrived, I was able to get on the V13 right away and ride it around. I don't think this would have been possible had I done that in reverse. 

Honestly though, if I could only have 1 wheel I think I would go with the V12 HT. Yes it doesn't have suspension, and yes its top speed is kind of limited, but for me it is a good mix of range, speed, and weight. I can really see myself using the wheel for commuting, etc. 

That said, the assurance you get with a suspension wheel is pretty high. 

So coming back around to that question? I wouldn't want to get rid of the V13 either. 

[novazeus]

3 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

That said, I don't experience wobble on the V13 at all. That wheel is so planted and solid.

that is great to hear. my v13 is still being reworked at my dealer. 

i quit riding 4 years ago and just starting back. certainly not giving advice to anybody how to ride, just reporting my experiences. i never had wobbles. i don't know what leg clenching wobbles are. my feet are practically hanging off the outer edge of the pedals. slightly under 30 mph is the fastest i've ever been on my old 18s over 4 years ago, and now on my s22.: i try to ride ten miles a day, every day. 5 on the s18 and 5 on the s22 on my private road. i'm experimenting with van's skateboarders shoes, and i don't know if it's the non spiked pedals or better suspension of the s18, or the spikes on the s22 pedals, but yesterday my feet were aching from my s22 riding 5 miles. 

now i do notice oscillations between my legs day before yesterday on the s22 on a short section of my road, and not really ignoring it, i just kept riding, and the oscillations stopped in about 20' of travel. it was quite windy, my road has roots and scars on it, and i wasn't going particularly fast, maybe 18mph when i felt it. 

that's why i'm not a fan of pads, although the ones that don't add thickness to the wheel might be nice, idk, i'm just too cheap to try an aftermarket set yet. some say the v13 pads are fine. i'm sure i'll give them a go before i do my yoga mat thing, because they are included. if grizzla wanted to give me a set of their grizzla pads on consignment, i'd happily buy them if they include a return label and free shipping back and forth. 

i ride with the hardest pedal setting the wheel has or i should say, with the ten wheels i've owned so far, and always with the max pressure in the tires until the s18 and s22 and i did drop 5 psi from the max on them to wear in the tires better. 

9bots wheels hardest pedal settings were very loose and gave me mini panic attacks. rideable but really funky. i'd laugh at the z10. the e+ was actually terrifying and i sold it to @litewavebecause he loved the e+. it's a personal choice i think. i don't know if i could ever get use to soft pedals vs hard pedals, but i'll probably not ever ride more than ten, maybe 15 miles daily, if king song ever fixes their s22 suspension. 5 miles on each wheel with Bob glaring at me from the compound is all he'll let me do before yelling at me. i can't ride like @Hirsuteor @picobut like @pico said, he practices 90% and cruises 10%. i'm more like i practice 99.97% and maybe someday i'll cruise .03%. no hurry, just killing time before time kills me. entertainment and handy for getting my amazon deliveries.

i don't know if wheels are more prone to wobbles or not, and evidently i ride differently from others. i stand on the balls of my feet to move forward, on my heels to stop. i'm very particular on placing my feet on the pedals, esp my left foot. a 5mm change towards the front or rearward makes a huge difference on my ability to move forward and more importantly to stop. when i had to do an emergency stop when the cows ran out in front of me, i instinctly did what i use to do with my inline skates with no brakes on them, i swung my right leg behind me and stepped on the ground holding the wheel with my left leg. we have to drag the wheels perpendicular to the pavement to stop on racing inline skates. funny how ur mind does stuff without thinking about it. 

that's why i practice daily. i don't practice freemounting and that's why i suck at it. i will someday i suppose. right now i don't need to but before i leave the ranch and travel around pestrians on sidewalks and multiuse paths, i'll need to to look like i know what i'm doing. one leg riding just seems like magic to me. i'd buy a smaller wheel like @picosuggests if the tires weren't so underrated. i loved the v10f before the fire and the recall. if they get cheap enough, i'll buy another one maybe. and idk if i learn one leg riding on it, will that enable me to do it on the 110 pound v13?

[2disbetter]

The stock pads that come with the V13 are fine. I really liked them. The only reason I wanted to go with the Grizzla flow pads was because I wanted to be able to affect a but more braking than what I felt was possible on the stock pads. But honestly I think the pads are great from Inmotion. I kept mine just in case I want to switch back to them. 

 

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, 2disbetter said:

The stock pads that come with the V13 are fine. I really liked them. The only reason I wanted to go with the Grizzla flow pads was because I wanted to be able to affect a but more braking than what I felt was possible on the stock pads. But honestly I think the pads are great from Inmotion. I kept mine just in case I want to switch back to them. 

 

one of the reasons i liked the v13 was the slim profile. i don't like the wheel touching my legs except gently during hard turns or dampening oscillations from road irregularities. 

either way, i'll be covering with velcro for the pads or my yoga mat method.

[2disbetter]

7 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I can tell you exactly how it helps ! The wider your stance the more minimal your movements can be to affect direction, the more authority you can exert over the wheel and you get better feedback about where your bodyweight is in relation to what the wheel is doing, so it becomes easier to keep your centre directly over it most of the time.

You are not so much 'loosey-goosey' when trying to fix wobbles as you are 'solidly sinking down' into the wheel, planting the heels in a firm, wide stance, crouching slightly, and exerting your authority that way, rather than by grabbing the shell with your calves, which makes your profile narrower and actually more prone to the tippiness that the wobbling has put there, and with less control over it. If you lock your legs to the shell, and the wobbles become more powerful than your legs can manage, then guess what happens to your legs, and then all of you shortly afterwards ?!

Well I got to thank you, I took your advice and gave it a shot. The secret seems to be making sure you have  your heels making good contact with the pedals. Then I find I just like having a leg touching the wheel, that gives me my 3 points of contact. I have had the V12HT up to 55 km/h today several times, and was holding at around 48-52 for a good while. Not a wobble in sight. I love both of my wheels a ton, and I just hope my foot endurance improves. It is much easier to ride the V13. 

[alcatraz]

Wear comfortable shoes. Ride at a lower air pressure. If the tire doesn't like a lower pressure (becomes hard to control), look for a tire that will. Rugged tires last longer but are less comfortable and less tolerant to lower pressures. Don't blindly copy other people's tire advice unless they're a similar weight as you.

Do your pedals provide support for your whole shoe? If not, maybe try larger pedals.

With lower air pressure you can't go over edges as fast, but you can usually find a balance. Be more careful for those few edges, and enjoy more comfort 99% of the time. 

If your air pressure is getting close to the limit then you need to use a pressure gauge and check/tweak it every couple of weeks. If you don't the rim could snakebite(puncture) the inner tube.

Edited March 3, 2023 by alcatraz

[Tawpie]

I decided I needed moto boots (low cut) for ankle and general foot protection, but they're hard. So I went through 5 or 6 sets of insoles to see what worked and voilà: Game Changers. They work exceptionally well and I highly recommend them—stumbled on a rider review and they are indeed great (for me, YMMV as always).

https://fpinsoles.com/shop/insoles/custom-arch-support-shock-absorption/gamechangers-custom-orthotics-test/

BUT, your feet have to get used to it... and I move my feet all the time, change how I hold them inside the boot (outside edge, flat etc). The problem with riding EUC is your feet tend to be in the same place for a very long time. Feet were meant to move and change position and squish a little fluid around with every footfall so when you lock them into a single place they will complain.

Edited March 3, 2023 by Tawpie

[2disbetter]

Yeah I just picked up some Alpinestar shoes, and they make a big difference, but they will take some getting used to. The stiff soles really do help eliminate wobble though. It is a very noticeable thing. I think what it is really doing is helping you to be more cognizant of the weight distribution, and the shoes just enable that to be placed more uniformly on the pedals. 

Edited March 5, 2023 by 2disbetter

[ssup2406]

11 hours ago, 2disbetter said:

Yeah I just picked up some Alpinestar shoes,

May I ask which model you got?

[2disbetter]

1 hour ago, ssup2406 said:

May I ask which model you got?

Sure! I got the J6 shoes. They are supposed to be waterproof as well. Not that cheap, but I feel like the shoes will last a while. The soles are also quite grippy. THey remind me of a skate shoe in that regard.