How to overlean every wheel

[alcatraz]

You know what's weird is that at 57% of the free spin speed, people can run out of torque.

To accidentily overlean a wheel at 57% there must have been a deceptively large amount of power at lower speeds, to give the rider the confidence to overlean at 57%. 

Turning the argument around, the power probably drops off like a cliff after a certain speed, nowhere close to max speed.

Isn't this type of behavior different than other performance wheels? I feel it's different.

Edited February 27, 2023 by alcatraz

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, alcatraz said:

To accidentily overlean a wheel at 57% there must have been a deceptively large amount of power at lower speeds, to give the rider the confidence to overlean at 57%. 

Or, merely ignorance. 

Although the powerband on a BLDC motor is unique, it is somewhat consistent, unlike an internal combustion engine. 

In addition to the peak torque tapering off after roughly 50% of the maximum free spin speed, the V13 has an unprecedented maximum free spin speed, and a higher top speed than a year ago. But the power required to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to cube of speed. So, it is a double whammy for the ignorant riders who want to blindly accelerate like an ICE to top speed. At higher top speeds, aerodynamic drag is no joke.

At a speed of 90 km/h, it would be 3 times that of 30 km/h, but the power required can be 27 (3^3) times that at 30 km/h, just to cruise. 

So as top speeds of electric wheels continue to climb, where are you going to find the power to self-balance, nevermind to accelerate like a bat out of hell?

Edited February 27, 2023 by techyiam

[alcatraz]

Fair point. It's hard to say for sure. Certainly wind resistance is a major part of the energy needed.

Going down at 57% is unusual though. Let's see some other speed tests or torque tests.

Racing will prove which wheel can take more abuse before going down.

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Fair point. It's hard to say for sure. Certainly wind resistance is a major part of the energy needed.

Going down at 57% is unusual though. Let's see some other speed tests or torque tests.

Racing will prove which wheel can take more abuse before going down.

Inmotion said the rider had already reached the 10,000 W maximum at around 70 km/h. That is all we need to know. The rider was accelerating uncharacteristically quick, as confirmed by the extreme rapid gain in speed shown on the onboard speedometer.

As for racers, the experienced ones don't blindly accelerate to faceplant, like the newb's do. They know how to finely moderate when riding on the edge. Also, the wheels may not be stock. For example  Roger doesn't use BMS's and add on other mods. 

Maybe Roger can do a video on that.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

You know what's weird is that at 57% of the free spin speed, people can run out of torque.

No surprises there. I have overleaned all my wheels at 10-20% of their free spin speed. Without much effort too.

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

To accidentily overlean a wheel

To call the V13 overlean as “accidentally overleaning” is quite misleading though. Trying to accelerate a self-balancing vehicle to the max speed “as fast as possible” without ensuring that the alarms are heard and recognized to me sounds either clearly premeditated or quite ignorant. And like @techyiam mentioned, he was accelerating incredibly fast.

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

the power probably drops off like a cliff after a certain speed, nowhere close to max speed.

The V13 max speed is at 64% of it’s free spin speed for a good reason. The winds at 80km/h are real trouble for a standing person. Check YouTube videos for people going about in those winds. It becomes a wall real soon.

 In this case though, the power dropped sharply at 89% of the wheel’s max speed (80/90). That is close to the max speed.

3 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Isn't this type of behavior different than other performance wheels? I feel it's different.

You haven’t read about high speed overleans on other performance wheels? ‘Cos to me one of the most interesting aspects is that I feel like all other performance wheels have had high speed overleans here and there, and this is the only V13 one that I know of. So the responses are blown way out of proportion in that sense.

[Eucner]

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

But the power required to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to cube of speed.

The power required to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to cubic of speed. The drag force is proportional to cube of speed.

[techyiam]

34 minutes ago, Eucner said:

The power required to overcome aerodynamic drag is proportional to cubic of speed. The drag force is proportional to cube of speed.

Drag force is proportional to the square of speed. v^2

Power required to overcome drag is proportional to the cube of speed. v^3

[rcgldr]

It's also possible to draw too much torque from a motor | current even at slow speed, mostly an issue for the lower powered EUCs, such as the second acceleration test on a V8F in this video, where it blew a fuse (blown fuse mentioned in a later video).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAEOnvDNaYw&t=732s

Youtubers doing steep incline tests often get over-lean, even on larger wheels, at very slow speeds, due to exceeding torque. Fortunately in this case, due to slow speed and steep incline, their hands are already close to the surface, so they can easily catch themselves and hand paddle to the top using their hands if it is close. Wrong Way on a V12 HT, had to hand paddle on one of the runs, and got over-power tilt-back warning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R0bDGRbKEk&t=324s

The 16X did a better job than the V12 HT on the 40 degree incline. It did trigger a caution warning, but no tilt back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2W3fFhILDw&t=480s

~75 lb EUC Girl managed to get beeps from an 80 lb Begode Hero on a hill climb test (also got beeps during acceleration runs a few seconds earlier in the video):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joQ1ee3tkSU&t=140s

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by rcgldr

[alcatraz]

On 2/27/2023 at 12:12 PM, mrelwood said:

To call the V13 overlean as “accidentally overleaning” is quite misleading though.

Only accidental in the sense that the rider probably isn't suicidal.  Who is this guy and what did he ride before the V13? To be fair, it could have been a competitor trying to smear Inmotion's name.

Still can't get over that number 57% though. It's an interesting number to compare with other recorded high speed overleans.

[MetricUSA]

A real fucking solution to overlean is to stick to 40 km/h, and stop being freakn stupid by going to cutout speed... 

[alcatraz]

On 3/1/2023 at 7:42 PM, MetricUSA said:

A real fucking solution to overlean is to stick to 40 km/h, and stop being freakn stupid by going to cutout speed... 

Right. It used to be, ride a wheel that does 60 at 40 and you can feel safe. The first overlean for the V13 happened at 57% of the free spin speed. That's a bit lower than what we're used to. (Obviously 40 and 80 are vastly different.)

Edited March 2, 2023 by alcatraz

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

The first overlean for the V13 happened at 57% of the max speed.

No, it was at 90% of the max speed. 57% of the free spin speed. Free spin speed is not the max speed of the wheel.

[Chriull]

49 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

No, it was at 90% of the max speed. 57% of the free spin speed. Free spin speed is not the max speed of the wheel.

Like the good old ks16c in 2017 (https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/). Near topspeed a bit above half no load speed.

Nothing changed since then but the speed

 

[2disbetter]

Very informative thread and I really appreciate mrelwood's effort in making the video he did. Understanding the dynamics of EUCs and how one rides them is crucial. The V13 can do 90 km/h but one has to reach it safely. Wind is your biggest enemy to this. 

Honestly even though I have a V13 riding it at 50 km/h is plenty fast for me. I think the fastest I've been on it so far is 67 km/h. The biggest problem is that you can't really stay at those speeds for long. Traffic, people, curves in the road, and even damage to the roads all require you to slow down. I would love to find a 10 mile strip of road that was perfectly paved and mostly straight. It would be a riding paradise. Finding something like that in Germany is a pipe dream. 

Edited March 2, 2023 by 2disbetter

[alcatraz]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

No, it was at 90% of the max speed. 57% of the free spin speed. Free spin speed is not the max speed of the wheel.

True. 57% of the free spin speed. Typo.

57% is like overleaning an RS HT at 45km/h or a Sherman Max at 56km/h minus the extra headwind.

Edited March 2, 2023 by alcatraz

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, alcatraz said:

True. 57% of the free spin speed. Typo.

57% is like overleaning an RS HT at 45km/h or a Sherman Max at 56km/h minus the extra headwind.

Both perfectly possible situations by themselves. But unless I’m mistaken, the wind at 80km/h provides almost four times the resistance than it does at 45km/h.

[alcatraz]

The Master has quite a few speed runs over 80, one over 90, which is 71-80% of its max free spin speed and including all and more of the headwind in question. How is this not embarassing for the V13?

The V13 will get some higher numbers I'm sure but it takes no scientist to realise that it's starting out rather low. It's most likely performance limited and that poor guy had to experience it the hard way.

I'd love to know more about him. Is he working for Begode?  No but seriously, what did he ride before?

[mrelwood]

You still don’t get it.

 Check the topic of this thread. ALL wheels can be overleaned. And all wheels have been overleaned.

The speed where the V13 overlean happened at is just one factor. There have been hundreds of speed runs made on the V13 all the way to 90km/h without issues. So the V13 obviously doesn’t just cut out when you reach 80km/h. You can get to 90km/h without crashing. The wheel can do it no problem.

 The rider tried to accelerate extremely horribly awfully super hard. If you do that at 80km/h, you will overlean any wheel. All other V13 speed runs have been made with greater consideration to what the rider can ask from the wheel at those speeds. And they have been successful. The V13 can do it no problem.

A few days ago Trung mentioned how a friend of his just overleaned a Master Pro. Guess what, NO-ONE even started to talk about that overlean. The rider tried to accelerate too hard. That happens if you’re not careful and push too hard. Nobody’s trying to figure out how in the earth something like that could ever happen, if the wheel is faulty, lacks performance, or any of that crap. It was just an overlean. People know how and why it happens. If they don’t, they watch my video about it. It’s got nothing to do with the wheel itself. And speed is just one factor. Every wheel can be overleaned, especially at 80km/h.

[mrelwood]

Let’s try this:

 Imagine reading a news article that a young man totaled his Ferrari into a tree at 60km/h on a Friday night.

 What’s your take on the news?

1) Man, the Ferrari must be a crappy car, usually the articles talk about cars that are not nearly as fast yet they are totaled at the same speed.

2) Man, the Ferrari must be a crappy car getting totaled at 60km/h, just last week a Mustang got totaled at 90km/h. Much better car!

3) Man, totaling a car on a Friday night, they must’ve been drunk or trying to impress someone by driving real stupid.

[Tawpie]

11 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Let’s try this:

 Imagine reading a news article that a young man totaled his Ferrari into a tree at 60km/h on a Friday night.

 What’s your take on the news?

1) Man, the Ferrari must be a crappy car, usually the articles talk about cars that are not nearly as fast yet they are totaled at the same speed.

2) Man, the Ferrari must be a crappy car getting totaled at 60km/h, just last week a Mustang got totaled at 90km/h. Much better car!

3) Man, totaling a car on a Friday night, they must’ve been drunk or trying to impress someone by driving real stupid.

4) I bet I can go faster than that on a Nik+

Edited March 2, 2023 by Tawpie

[bpong]

On 3/1/2023 at 6:42 AM, MetricUSA said:

A real fucking solution to overlean is to stick to 40 km/h, and stop being freakn stupid by going to cutout speed... 

well put, totally agree...

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

4) I bet I can go faster than that on a Nik+

Into a tree? Sure! 

To which some may think that what a crappy wheel for crashing at such slow speeds…

[bpong]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Let’s try this:

 Imagine reading a news article that a young man totaled his Ferrari into a tree at 60km/h on a Friday night.

 What’s your take on the news?

1) Man, the Ferrari must be a crappy car, usually the articles talk about cars that are not nearly as fast yet they are totaled at the same speed.

2) Man, the Ferrari must be a crappy car getting totaled at 60km/h, just last week a Mustang got totaled at 90km/h. Much better car!

3) Man, totaling a car on a Friday night, they must’ve been drunk or trying to impress someone by driving real stupid.

this is just begging for the beginning of a chuck norris thread....

[Cerbera]

Chuck Norris cannot over-lean a wheel. The World's rotation slows down to keep him upright.

[alcatraz]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You still don’t get it.

 Check the topic of this thread. ALL wheels can be overleaned. And all wheels have been overleaned.

The speed where the V13 overlean happened at is just one factor. There have been hundreds of speed runs made on the V13 all the way to 90km/h without issues. So the V13 obviously doesn’t just cut out when you reach 80km/h. You can get to 90km/h without crashing. The wheel can do it no problem.

 The rider tried to accelerate extremely horribly awfully super hard. If you do that at 80km/h, you will overlean any wheel. All other V13 speed runs have been made with greater consideration to what the rider can ask from the wheel at those speeds. And they have been successful. The V13 can do it no problem.

A few days ago Trung mentioned how a friend of his just overleaned a Master Pro. Guess what, NO-ONE even started to talk about that overlean. The rider tried to accelerate too hard. That happens if you’re not careful and push too hard. Nobody’s trying to figure out how in the earth something like that could ever happen, if the wheel is faulty, lacks performance, or any of that crap. It was just an overlean. People know how and why it happens. If they don’t, they watch my video about it. It’s got nothing to do with the wheel itself. And speed is just one factor. Every wheel can be overleaned, especially at 80km/h.

I'd be curious to compare the other overlean logs too. Don't get me wrong. I'd plot all the overleans by their % of free spin and the momentary motor power.

90 for the V13 is like 72 for the Master. It means little to say the V13 is fine at 90. The hardware should in fact do a lot more. They limit it to protect the hardware. The performance limit caused a crash that otherwise wouldn't have happen, or it would have happened later. Few talk about that. 

I bring up the Master doing 90 to point out that the V13 isn't close to its hardware limits by comparison. Heck, at "only" 57% of free spin I'd expect plenty of power reserves too.

Instead of focusing on the point that any wheel can be overleaned and quickly sweeping it under the rug, why not focus on the fact that all that beefy hardware is at the mercy of software? Riders might think they're safe when they really aren't.

I'm trying to spread a bit of caution to those looking at the hardware and extrapolate certain power reserves based on previous experience.

Haha. That Ferrari example is funny. If only the crash was directly linked to the performance then it would have been relevant.

Euc might better be compared with single engine airplanes. Imagine the plane not allowing the pilot to risk causing harm to the engine to get out of an emergency? Sure as long as there isn't an emergency it's all fine.

Your argument is like saying, "Any plane can crash in a dive. The fact that this plane was supposed to have more power than other planes but still didn't provide more altitude is irrelevant. Just don't dive."

Sometimes dives are unavoidable. What then? The more powerful plane is not the solution?