Pushing 60 and against my families wishes - I just ordered my first EUC!

[Funky]

6 hours ago, Grandpa_Jay said:

I continue to try to move my feet (at least the right one) with toes off - I also tilted the pedals 1degree forward (seemed to help??). Next ride I will try moving forward a little more. Backwards rolling has always been easier, since day 1!

I also had my front of wheel upwards about 1.5degree at beginning. (Front upwards - because you need less lean forwards to start the wheel go..)

Later i made the pedals 0 degree - because zero is level position - best position. (Especially if you are learning to ride BACKWARDS..) Which i'm gonna doo this season. Over winter i have been riding somewhat backwards in my hallway. (Doing "pendulum", but longer distance.)  Now i need to try it outdoors.

Less than 1000km driven and i'm gonna learn it all!!!  (I'm not a distance rider..)

Edited January 30, 2023 by Funky

[rcgldr]

20 hours ago, Grandpa_Jay said:

I continue to try to move my feet (at least the right one) with toes off - I also tilted the pedals 1degree forward (seemed to help??). Next ride I will try moving forward a little more.  ... bumpy road

Moving feet forward is done to reduce ankle bend and calf muscle effort, but it also reduces resistance to wobble. If anything, try moving feet back at bit, or just leave feet centered on the pedals. The main point is to have shins leaned forwards, which requires bending the knees more. This results in the inner legs contacting the upper pads ahead of the center of the pedals, creating more  leverage against twisting type wobbles.

Are there any smooth roads or bike paths you can ride at? Bumps can induce wobbles. I'm still wondering if there is any issue with your S18. Are there any advanced riders in your area that could try riding your S18 to see if there is an issue (be sure to warn them that you're getting wobbles at 10 mph)?

 

 

[Paul A]

Perhaps...

The body's leaning forward is slightly off to one side.

Or, the body is leaning directly forward, but the wheel is slightly tilted left/right.

ie: body's centre of gravity, and wheel direction, are not pointing in the same direction...

[rcgldr]

On 1/29/2023 at 7:12 PM, Grandpa_Jay said:

not because the wheel

You could check the suspension for an imbalance. With the S18 on, and using support, like facing a wall with both hands on the wall and standing on the pedals, try bouncing the S18 up and down to see if there's any tilting reaction to suspension movement, which could happen if one side of the suspension is not moving smoothly.

 

[rcgldr]

4 hours ago, Paul A said:

 body's centre of gravity, and wheel direction, are not pointing in the same direction...

If the rider's center of mass is moving in a different direction than the wheel, there is a lateral force from the rider that causes the wheel to tilt towards the rider, which will steer towards the rider due to camber effect. At sufficient speed (about 6 to 8 mph), the wheel steers back under the rider's center of mass, which is why EUCs become stable at sufficient speed, and don't require conscious balance corrections if riding in a straight line. 

The exception to this is if the rider tilts the EUC outwards, which is done to initiate an inwards lean (counter-steering). A rider may not be aware of this, since a rider can just lean inwards which will coexist with the EUC tilting outwards, steering the EUC outwards from under the rider, leaning the rider further inwards, after which the EUC is tilted inwards to control lean angle.

[Jkay]

Finally a beautiful day, rode my V12 15 miles in the park in the off-road mode!  Legs feel like jello.  Noticed towards the end my heading hold was drifting a bit!  I will try a repeat tomorrow in the commuter mode to see if that helps.  Definitely see what all we’re saying about having to build my EUCage muscles.  

[Jkay]

One area of our little park is exposed to the wind, I had no idea now a breeze and affect a EUC, I was doing pretty good till I hit the cross wind!  Amazed how sensitive I am to a 10 mph breeze! 

[techyiam]

2 hours ago, Jkay said:

One area of our little park is exposed to the wind, I had no idea now a breeze and affect a EUC, I was doing pretty good till I hit the cross wind!  Amazed how sensitive I am to a 10 mph breeze! 

Today I rode on my Abrams, and it was quite windy out. I would be fighting the gusts of wind on my V12, and would have been scary on my T3.

However, on my Abrams, it was almost like I was on a small motorcycle. Once I clamped my knees to the wheel I was fine.

Incidentally, the weather guy say wind gusts of 50 km/h. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by techyiam

[rcgldr]

On 2/3/2023 at 1:24 PM, Jkay said:

One area of our little park is exposed to the wind, I had no idea now a breeze and affect a EUC, I was doing pretty good till I hit the cross wind!  Amazed how sensitive I am to a 10 mph breeze! 

If hit by a crosswind, try to lean your body into the wind. When trying to lean sideways, a rider will be sort of sub-consciously pushing downwards more on the outside pedal, which will steer the EUC outwards from under the rider, leaning the rider into the crosswind, and once leaned, the rider steers the EUC straight. More experienced riders will directly use pedal pressure and|or twisting for quicker steering on an EUC, at first outwards to initiate a lean, then inwards to turn, counter-steering. Once leaned, tilt more to lean less (or straighten up), tilt less to lean more, also counter-steering.

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by rcgldr

[Jkay]

Thanks for the advice on the crosswind all!  Next windy day I plan to go practice in the windy area of the park.  Amazing the effect a little wind has/had on me.  
 

As a new rider, (I think I can call myself a rider now instead of wheel chaser) the V12HT has so many different settings to mess with.  I had it on offroad mode, yesterday tried commuter mode.  I may sound like GoldlyLocks but offroad mode my legs felt like jello in 14 miles, commuter mode doesn’t seem like the wheel listens to me!  Ones too soft, ones too hard! I have watched a bunch of YouTube on the V12 settings, does anyone here (new rider) have any suggestions on their settings?  And then there is tire pressure!  Easy to get wrapped around with all these settings and loose the fact that I simply don’t know what I am doing!

 I also am considering installing the InMotion supplied pads, not too aggressive, should I do that to feel more in control? I started at our local park, on a narrow 2 lane drive, then graduated to a wide bike path, now on a 3 foot (1 meter) wide foot path. Still don’t feel like I have enough control, but when I started I couldn’t stay on a 2 lane roadway now on a footpath, so I guess I am getting a little better!  
 

Being retired is good, on the weekdays the park is basically abandoned, not so much on weekends! 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Jkay

[Cerbera]

Yes, I have been really struggling with wind high up there on the Master - I have been nearly blown off it a number of times by gusts I wouldn't previously have cared about on my little MS3. On that I could zig zag out of these things, whereas I find it very difficult to avoid when up higher / moving quicker on the Begode. I have to watch out for any winds gusting above 15 mph, which seems low, given that I used to go wheeling about in <40 mph winds and would enjoy the challenge of fighting my way through them. 

I would have thought the Master's enormous weight would help it in that respect, but actually the inverse is true because a lot of that weight is top-heavy, so it feels particularly like it wants to tip when side-swiped by a wall of push... so I too am reading all the helpful tips there in order to try and get better at managing that - most days are pretty windy over here !!

Edited February 6, 2023 by Cerbera

[Paul A]

15 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

helpful tips

 

Perhaps rotate the shoulders, torso, pelvis, thighs, body.....to be angled into the crosswind, to be as streamlined as possible.

Might be able to tilt the wheel into the wind, so that the wind is pushing it into the ground.

 

If riding in a group, perhaps use cycling formation techniques.

EUC riders might not have the knowledge/training of club cyclists though.

 

 

[Cerbera]

58 minutes ago, Paul A said:

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

helpful tips

 

Excellent concatenation

I feel like I should have heard of Echalons (have certainly played it enough in scrabble over the years) - will be nice to find out what they are !

[rcgldr]

17 hours ago, Jkay said:

does anyone here (new rider) have any suggestions on their settings?  And then there is tire pressure!  

I also am considering installing the InMotion supplied pads

Most of the how to ride videos suggest starting off a 100% sensitivity, for the V12, all of them. At 100% commuter mode and off road essentially the same, so might as well use commuter mode. Monokat (Kate) one of the youtubers, runs her V12 at 100% | 100% | 100% | commuter.

There's a guide for tire pressures. For a beginner, if you don't do stuff like dropping off curbs, you can run about 5 psi lower than the chart shows.

https://www.ewheels.com/guide-tires-appropriate-pressures-electric-unicycle/

I weigh about 187 lbs and my V8F about 35 lbs. The V8F tire is a 16 inch by 2.125 inch wide tire. I started at 35 psi and later increased to 40 psi. My V8F has a weak axle (the ones made after June 2022 are a bit stronger), so I take bumps slowly and don't drop off curbs.

You should wait to get proficient at riding before using pads. They're used to be able to exert more torque onto the EUC frame, which in turn allows the motor to exert more torque onto the wheel + tire for more acceleration and braking.

Edited February 7, 2023 by rcgldr

[Jkay]

Thanks, I tried the rather small Inmotion pads briefly yesterday and removed them.  My skill level is not to a point where I need them and they feel awkward to me.  Maybe in a few more months and more miles they will feel more natural.  I had my tire pressure at 40 initially and now have it at 32, I am rather heavy, and I should have it at least 40.  I am riding in my yard which is smooth grass and very smooth bike/walking paths at our local park.  I have a V12HT which has a pretty chunky tire,  at my skill level I appreciate the added stability.   I have a small battery powered air compressor from my motorcycle riding, I will take it with me and increase my tire pressure incrementally.  I need to up the pressure as I up my skill before I up my tube changing skills. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Jkay

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Most of the how to ride videos suggest starting off a 100% sensitivity, for the V12, all of them.

I don’t think that’s a good piece of advice. The V12 at 100% feels quite stiff, requires more effort to accelerate, feels cumbersome, and makes your legs tired/hurt faster. At 70% Commuter it felt fluid, much more natural, and more effortless.

 

[rcgldr]

9 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Most of the how to ride videos suggest starting off a 100% (hard) sensitivity

 

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t think that’s a good piece of advice. The V12 at 100% feels quite stiff, requires more effort to accelerate, feels cumbersome, and makes your legs tired/hurt faster.

As an example, Wrong Way's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc&t=195s

Most beginners are not going to accelerate or brake that hard (unless emergency brake), and my impression of the suggestion of starting off with hard | 100% setting is so beginners are more aware of their lean angle based on ankle bend. Once a beginner can ride reasonably well, then that rider can try different pedal settings to see what they prefer. 

If effort means the amount of torque the rider exerts onto the EUC, then its the same amount of torque from the rider for the same amount of acceleration | braking regardless of pedal settings. A rider can shift feet forwards to reduce effort for acceleration, but that means more effort to brake. If feet are centered and pedals tilted forwards, the pedals are shifted back a bit on an EUC since the pedals are located below the axle, and technically that would require a bit more effort from the rider to accelerate. My impression is that pedal stiffness mostly affects ankle bend. My calf muscles are an issue if I'm wearing old tennis shoes with thin soles, regardless of pedal settings, but switching to hard sole and cushioned hiking shoes, or better still, hiking boots (ankle support) solved that problem. 

Monokat states acceleration and braking were easier for her on a V12 at 100%, but she's using power pads.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_24LYmbwqw&t=740s

Wrong Way's video on ride modes (pedal settings), Again, this is biased due to using power pads. He doesn't like soft mode, medium mode delays acceleration | deceleration, which can be useful for off-road, since the EUC won't suddenly react to disturbances like bumps or dips and can be less tiring since the EUC will tend to maintain speed rather than jerk back and forth when going over bumps or dips. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXjiJ2uRNOg

His EUC specific recommendation in his video description (show more):

Any InMotion: Hard  (100%)
King-Song: S18: Medium/Hard
Other King Song: Hard
Begode/GotWay: mten3: hard, MCM5: hard, Nikola: medium/hard
MSX: hard, MSP or RS19 HT: medium/hard, MSP or RS19 HS: medium/hard
EXN: medium/hard, EX: medium/hard, Monster Pro: medium
Veteran Sherman: hard

Wrong Ways' review of the original V12 and ride modes. Only had it for a few days, ended up trying 100% | 90% acceleration | 40% braking, with the caveat that when transitioning from braking to acceleration, the response is slower until the pedals return to level. My impression is similar to Monokat, he switched to all 100% later on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pL1AFbqDhI&t=3400s

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by rcgldr

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

If effort means the amount of torque the rider exerts onto the EUC

It does not. Effort means the perceived amount of work to do within a certain timeframe. Watch the video from my previous post. I think I explained it reasonably well.

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

Monokat states acceleration and braking were easier for her on a V12 at 100%, but she's using power pads.

Mrelwood on the other hand states that acceleration and braking were easier for him on all modern wheels in medium setting or 70% Commuter sensitivity compared to the hardest mode.

 He also says that instead of going through YouTube videos to find out what others have once said, the only way to determine the correct ride mode setting is to try them out oneself.

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_24LYmbwqw&t=740s

Wrong Way's video on ride modes (pedal settings)

I think this is the video where he says that the medium mode is a new revelation for him, and that he now generally prefers the medium mode, since it takes less effort to accelerate and causes less leg exhaustion. Which is exactly what I’ve been saying for years.

 

[rcgldr]

In Wrong Way's how to ride video, he's suggesting new riders start off in hard mode and wait till later (when the rider has learned basic riding skills) before adjusting ride modes | settings. A new rider will get more of a sense of lean angle due to ankle bend, which a softer setting would mask due to pedal tilt.  Most of the effort when learning will be bailing and remounting, which is why Kuji Rolls, Wrong Way, and others recommend using support to mount and launch and learning to ride before attempting to free mount. 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Effort means the perceived amount of work to do within a certain time frame.

For the linear forces between rider and EUC, muscle tension is a factor of linear forces due to acceleration | deceleration | aerodynamic drag and how much the knees are bent, plus how much torque the rider is exerting onto the EUC. 

Pedal tilt (tilt or sensitivity setting) and knee bend affect ankle bend and how much calf muscles are stretched. This doesn't seem to affect all riders equally. Marty Backe can do fairly long stretches on smooth paved pathways on an EUC without taking a break. 

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I think this is the video where he says that the medium mode is a new revelation for him, and that he now generally prefers the medium mode, since it takes less effort to accelerate and causes less leg exhaustion. 

It is also the video where in his video description, he recommends hard (90% to 100% based on his other videos) mode for any Inmotion EUC (which would include the V12  | V12 HT), and for most of the EUCs he listed in the recommended mode settings. 

He also mentions an increased risk of overlean in soft mode, which I think is due to reduced ankle bend and less sense of lean angle. A rider could acclimate to a soft setting where this isn't an issue.

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

try it out oneself

I'm trying 10% pedal sensitivity on my V8F again. On my V8F, I'm not accelerating | leaning much, as I don't trust the V8F after seeing overlean, cutout, or blown fuse in videos of acceleration tests (even at low speeds like 5 mph). The V8F can safely brake reasonably hard, and when braking to stop from 12 to 15 mph, I do feel some pedal tilt. I also feel it when going up or down hills. I need to ride my local bike pathway with the bumpy concrete seams to see if it smooths them out any (assuming reduced response to intermittent tilts due to the bumps). V8F soft setting pedal tilt rate may be slower than other EUCs, reducing the effect.

I'm 71 years old with some vericose veins, but switching from thin soft soled tennis shoes to hard cushioned shoes like hiking shoes, or better still hiking boots with ankle support have mostly solved my calf muscle issue, although so far I've only done a few 30+ minute rides without breaks. 

Edited February 7, 2023 by rcgldr

[Jkay]

The video is a big help!  Thanks much.  I had offroad 100% every thing, rode about 45 minutes and could really feel it!  I am currently following your advice on trying all the different settings, at my limited skills level messing with the settings while trying not to bust my butt was too much at once.  I am now exploring “commuter” and working my way through the mid levels. Much mo betta! 

[rcgldr]

5 hours ago, Jkay said:

I am currently following your advice on trying all the different settings

You're well past beginner stage, so it's probably time to try different settings. At 100%, commuter mode and offroad mode should be about the same, or at least none of the reviewers have noticed much difference. At softer settings, as noted in mrelwood's videos, offroad will limit pedal tilt. Are you doing any riding on offroad trails that aren't that smooth, like going over tree roots? If so, a medium setting may help.

How are you doing with turning at various speeds and turning radius? One drill I used to help learn this on a long straight and wide pathway, was to lean a bit, then tilt my EUC in the direction of lean enough to straighten me back up, weaving side to side while going straight. I then extended the weave by tilting just enough to hold a lean angle for a moment, before tilting more to straighten up.

 

[mrelwood]

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

In Wrong Way's how to ride video, he's suggesting new riders start off in hard mode

I think we went through this already. WW suggests one thing, I suggest another.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

Kuji Rolls, Wrong Way, and others recommend using support to mount and launch and learning to ride before attempting to free mount.

Me too, absolutely.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

he recommends

You might’ve noticed already, that if I have examined, investigated and tested something myself thoroughly enough to form a well based opinion, I don’t really care what other people say about it. Only people who are not able to take the time and effort to examine and test it themselves need to read to or hear what other people say about something. Testing ride modes takes a few seconds, since we are all riding here and there anyway. There’s absolutely no effort in doing it in a different mode for a while.

 This makes it quite ridiculous to argue online about what the difference between the ride modes are, since each of us can just go out and feel it for ourselves. And what’s especially futile is to use only some third person’s opinions as arguments, who’s not even a part of the conversation.

 Yes, I know what WW recommends. And I have a differing opinion. That’s that.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

He also mentions an increased risk of overlean in soft mode

I agree, one reason being that a soft mode helps you with your lean, which can end up being too much if you’re careless. Together with being wildly different on different wheels, I don’t think it’s a good idea to recommend the soft mode either. I suggest using the medium mode if you’re a beginner or if you haven’t tested through the different modes yet.

 Your 10% sensitivity test is definitely a very soft one, if you’re using the Commuter mode. I would rather test 30% for a soft feeling yet a reasonable amount of strength behind it.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

when braking to stop from 12 to 15 mph, I do feel some pedal tilt.

At 10% Commuter the tilt should be pretty severe.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

I'm 71 years old

I deeply appreciate that you’re riding an EUC at your age! I hope I will too, if I ever get there.

On 2/8/2023 at 12:26 AM, rcgldr said:

hiking boots with ankle support

My choice of footwear as well!

[rcgldr]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

At 10% Commuter the tilt should be pretty severe.

Turns out the V8F settings are different than the settings you based your videos on. For the V8F in commuter mode, the rate of tilt is slow. If I hold the V8F by the handle and try to wiggle it front|back in commuter mode, there's no difference between 10% and 100%. If I stand on it with commuter + 10%, I get tilt but the rate of tilt is slow and not that much. If I switch to off road + 10%, I can hold it by the handle and easily wiggle it front|back. If I stand on it at off road + 10%, the tilt is almost instant. At 100%, there is no difference between commuter and off road mode. I'll switch to off road mode and gradually lower pedal sensitivity to see if there is any benefit. To avoid overlean issue, I'll lower the EUC World peak current post event notification (it's not a warning due to up to 1/2 second delay due to message cycling) from 25 amps to 20 amps until I acclimate and get sense of lean angle with softer pedal settings. 

I was watching Marty Backe's videos of the V13 and I was wondering why I couldn't duplicate the wiggle that Marty Backe got on a V13 at 0%, which led me to try switching from commuter + 10%  to off road + 10%, which did allow me to duplicate the wiggle.

Marty Backe has been recently making videos with a V13 loaned to him for testing | review, and mis-understood softness setting, mistakenly thinking that setting softness to 0% meant hard mode, when what he wanted was 100%. The setting descriptions could be improved to avoid issues like this, the sensitivity setting should be described as pedal "hardness". He was able to significantly wiggle the V13 front|back very quickly via the handle, or while riding by wiggling his legs, something that I could never reproduce on my V8F until I tried off road mode after watching his video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtYUKtVaCp4&t=1180s

update - I tried off road + 50% and then 10%. Since I ride at near constant speed, it's not doing much in reaction to slight inputs, but on the first short ride at 10%. I tried changing foot position, but got the opposite result from what I wanted, feet a bit forwards resulted in pedals tilted up a bit, enough that I ended up with more ankle bend than with feet centered and pedals not tilted up so much. I went back to commuter + 100%.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by rcgldr

[Finn Bjerke]

Good idea. Its a balance thing, so age is of very little relevance for EUC riding. Im 61 I ride to work and back everyday, also I ride with my fast moving dog every day - all in all I ride at least 40 km every day.  What I do in order to avoid back ache:

1) Seated riding often
2) Suspension wheels are def better for me.
3) to add strength to my back I life weights 5-10 minutes everyday Rumanian deadlift its called.  

Trails for doggy and me

 

[rcgldr]

3 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

Good idea. Its a balance thing, so age is of very little relevance for EUC riding.

My issue is my calf muscles. Could be circulation issue due to near constant tension in calf muscle due to knee bend and not much movement of legs. When I was wearing tennis shoes, taking a 1 minute or so break every 15 minutes was enough to keep going. Switching to high top hiking shoes solved the issue, but my longest ride so far was a bit over 33 minutes. 

I work out with free weights, and can calf raise 500+ lbs, more than double my weight, so it's not a strength isssue.