Are euc's exceptionally vulnerable or dangerous?

[techyiam]

 

On 9/29/2022 at 2:21 PM, Spaghetteh said:

The reality is that riding EUCs leaves you exceptionally vulnerable even if you take the utmost safety precautions and there've been community members who've gotten seriously hurt or even lost their lives while riding EUCs. It's a risk we all take when stepping on a wheel and for some it's just not worth it.

Now that I have ridden on some main roads as well as side streets on my V12 like how I ride my 125 motorcycle, based on this experience, I don't share the same opinion. For sure, euc's are not for everyone, not unlike riding motorcycles. Many, many have had life-altering injuries. Many have found it to be too dangerous. And it is unless you know how to mitigate the risks to an acceptable level. With, euc's, skills come into play even more, and not to mention how reliable you can make your euc. But, with enough time, effort, and determination, I believe the risk of riding euc's can be mitigated to an acceptable level similar to safe riding on a small displacement motorcycle. 

To address the e-bike question, I would say for an experienced and skilled euc rider, I don't believe riding an euc is anymore dangerous than riding an e-bike. In fact, there can me more options available to avoid contentions or accidents. 

Edited February 26, 2023 by techyiam

[atdlzpae]

Everyone had their share of accidents on a bicycle. But they happened when we were young, so we tend to forget about them.
The only real difference is that we tend to learn to ride EUC's while we're adults. And an 80kg person is easier to injure when falling than a 40kg one.

I faceplanted about 10 times on my EUC. But the same is true with a bike decades ago.

Are EUC's more unstable than bikes? Yes. But we compensate by behavior. I consider them both equally safe & capable. I'm a slow rider, all you speed demons may disagree.

[techyiam]

30 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

Are EUC's more unstable than bikes? Yes.

I would say, it depends on rider skills, and the euc.

Once a rider build up experience on spike pedals, and power pads, on a stable wheel, I don't believe an average e-bike would be more stable, especially at speeds of 40, 50+ km/h.

However, I would say on really bumpy roads, or under strong winds, e-bikes might have an edge here.

 

[DanCar]

Yes.  Two wheels is more stable than one.  Harder to fall forward or backward.  4 wheels is safer than two because less likely you are going to fall sideways.  Having said that one wheel is a lot of fun!

Edited October 1, 2022 by DanCar

[techyiam]

13 minutes ago, DanCar said:

Two wheels is more stable then one.

Not necessarily. At 50+ km/h speeds, my V12 is much, much more stable than my mountain bikes, and e-bikes.

And even my T3 is much, much more stable than my electric (or not) kick scooters at any speed, never mind my V12.

Edited September 30, 2022 by techyiam

[Spaghetteh]

Hey, that's me! 

I don't disagree with most of what you said. However, I also don't think you're necessarily contradicting my original statement. You likened EUCs to motorcycles, which I think is accurate and that EUC riders share many of the same unique vulnerabilities when riding with traffic. However, unlike motorcycles or other multi-wheeled vehicles, we've got a single-point of failure that results in hitting pavement every time at any time that we have little-to-no control over; that is cutouts.

Sure, you can develop the skills necessary to avoid over-leaning and you can keep your wheel well maintained and recognize when it's behaving strangely. But these are extremely complex systems keeping us upright and with complexity comes the opportunity for failure. This community has no shortage of random, unexplainable cutouts at speeds these machines have otherwise proven to be more than capable of sustaining. That is what I meant when I said, "exceptionally vulnerable"; it's like a motorcycle except no amount of skill is going to help you when your wheel decides to die on you for no good reason.

But I, like you, accept these risks because riding an EUC is just about the best thing I've ever experienced. I have spent countless hours developing my skills to reduce the risk of hitting pavement to what I consider an "acceptable risk level" but since that risk is never zero I still wear protective gear just in case I do go down in order to reduce the risk of major injury. Similar to the risk of hitting pavement, the risk of sustaining a major injury following a crash is also never zero even with my most advanced gear and I'm aware of that and choose to accept those risks. However, if you look on YouTube you'll see some people riding with no safety gear at all despite the risks because their "acceptable risk level" is higher than mine. Alternatively it's the opposite for some people, all the safety precautions they can utilize still wont bring their "acceptable risk level" to what it takes to step on an EUC and so they choose not to either from the get-go or shortly after.

As for e-bikes, I agree with you that they are not without risk. But since bikes have been around a lot longer than EUCs, many people have had previous experiences with them and are familiar with the risks which makes it easier to accept them. As for safety, I can't say e-bikes and EUCs are in a comparable class. If e-bikes went as fast as most EUCs then I think they would legally be motorcycles/mopeds. Most e-bikes I know can't exceed 35kmph; the highest performers topping out at 50kmph. Regardless, these speeds are really only safely achievable by advanced riders who've already established an "acceptable risk level" and not beginners testing the ropes.

[The Brahan Seer]

Something that is overlooked and seems to be quite different to a motorcycle is the ability to swerve an obstacle at speed. The counter steer dynamics do not behave the same. This would make travelling at speed  a lot more risky. As in our ability to avoid an oncoming vehicle doing something unexpected is diminished compared to a bike.

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Something that is overlooked and seems to be quite different to a motorcycle is the ability to swerve an obstacle at speed. The counter steer dynamics do not behave the same. This would make travelling at speed  a lot more risky. As in our ability to avoid an oncoming vehicle doing something unexpected is diminished compared to a bike.

Based on my experience on my V12, there is no way a motorcycle is as agile at speeds of 70 km/h or less. The V12 is a very agile wheel at speeds.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

there is no way a motorcycle is as agile at speeds of 70 km/h or less.

What about going over 70 km/h (43Mph)?  Which is where we seem to be  headed. I find it very hard to swerve quickly on my S18 at 25Mph but it is an 18" wheel without powerpads.  

[techyiam]

35 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

What about going over 70 km/h (43Mph)?  Which is where we seem to be  headed. I find it very hard to swerve quickly on my S18 at 25Mph but it is an 18" wheel without powerpads.  

The reason I can't comment on 70+ km/h because my V12's top speed is 70 km/h.

I can't say about the S18 because I have zero experience on that wheel.

I can swerve at 25 mph on my V12 easily. I go 40+ km/h through small traffic circles.

[Robse]

12 hours ago, techyiam said:

 

Now that I have ridden on some main roads on my V12, and ride on side streets like how I ride my 125 small displacement motorcycle, from what I have experienced, I don't share the same opinion. For sure, euc's are not for everyone, not unlike riding motorcycles. Many, many have had life-altering injuries. Many have found it to be too dangerous. And it is unless you know how to mitigate the risks to an acceptable level. With, euc's, skills come into play even more, and not to mention how reliable you can make your euc. But, with enough time, effort, and determination, I believe the risk of riding euc's can be mitigated to an acceptable level similar to safe riding on a small displacement motorcycle. 

To address the e-bike question, I would say for an experienced and skilled euc rider, I don't believe riding an euc is anymore dangerous than riding an e-bike. In fact, there can me more options available to avoid contentions or accidents. 

I don's see more danger riding an EUC than a MC. 

As with so much else in life, it is about having respect for what you do.
If you eat 20 pastries a day, you will probably get fat and get diabetes.
If you constantly ride your wheel to the limit of what it can handle, you end up eating dirt, the same as for a motorcycle. 
As such, I see only 3 dangers of riding EUC (and what I fear most) 
1: Cutout due to technical error (not overload) but simply that a component fails,
a cable / connection breaks... all that you are not in control. 

2: Crash due to own stupidity / overestimation of own abilities. 
3: Crash due to others stupidity.... pedestrians, cars ..

 

[techyiam]

21 minutes ago, Robse said:

: Cutout due to technical error (not overload) but simply that a component fails, a cable / connection breaks... all that you are not in control.

This one is a harder nut to crack.

But it is still solid state electronics, so there is hope.

If you are riding on main roads, to mitigate this kind of risks, gradual steps have to be taken.

If it is a new wheel, I would open the euc up to give it a once over, assuming you are technically savvy. Next is to ride it like a new wheel that you can't trust yet. After that, I would ride only behind cars, not in front. It will take quite a while before I would trust a wheel to ride it in traffic like a motorcycle.

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by techyiam

[Robse]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

This one is a harder nut to crack.

But it is still solid state electronics, so there is hope.

If you are riding main roads, to mitigate this kind of risks, gradual steps have to be taken.

If it is a new wheel, I would open the euc up to give it a once over, assuming you are technically savvy. Next is to ride it like a new wheel that you can't trust yet. After that, I would ride only behind cars, not in front. It will take quite a while before I would trust a wheel to ride it in traffic like a motorcycle.

 

Completely agree. Fortunately, here where I live, we have a lot of good cycle paths, also out in the countryside between the cities.
If I occasionally drive between cars, I keep a close eye on what is coming from behind, slow down and am always prepared to fall to 
the right side 

[Demoniac]

I like the challenge of the unicycle. (And the stares I get from people). Just start slow, like everything else. 

[Spaghetteh]

2 hours ago, RamonatheCat said:

Eucs can definitely be dangerous - the question in my opinion is if they are worth the risk. As an euc lover I believe they're more than worth the risk. That was the point I was making. Whether an ebike is substantially safer is a different discussion - but I will be quiet because this is a sales thread lol.

Feel free to join the the forked conversation over here 

I agree - my original statement was not to deny that to many the benefits outweigh the risks of riding EUCs but instead to point out that to some the risks are too great. I find it difficult to compare levels of safety between advanced e-bike and EUC riders because it requires a different set of skills but my intuition tells me that a novice on an e-bike would in general be less likely to crash than a novice on an EUC.

[Planemo]

On 9/29/2022 at 10:56 PM, techyiam said:

 I believe the risk of riding euc's can be mitigated to an acceptable level similar to safe riding on a small displacement motorcycle. 

Sure they can be mitigated, but the fact remains that by default EUC's will never be as 'safe' as something with 2 or more wheels.

The physics of turning, braking and accelerating on a single tiny contact patch cannot, and will not ever be 'better' or even the same as having more contact patches. Further, weird things happen (oscillations/harmonics) with single wheels that either don't happen or can be largely controlled when using more wheels to assist with stability.

We've had this debate for years, and no doubt will do for many years to come.

The above is aside to the risk of cut outs, not to mention the increased braking distance compared to an MC or even an MTB as has been mentioned. This one area is probably the bit that freaks me the most now that EUC's are hitting 40mph+. Hell, lets compare an EUC stopping distance at 50mph to a car or MC. The best EUC riders in the world won't even come close.

And theres the rub - the best riders can and indeed do flick their wheels around like houseflies, but they will still be fighting the laws of physics in an unforeseen 'oh shit' moment. Theres only so much a single tiny contact patch can do. And regards braking, I don't believe even the best front rail grabber will/can apply enough braking leverage to come close to breaching the available grip on an EUC. I'm not sure the mobo's can even handle such currents. So an EUC doesn't even stop as well as it could do, even with one wheel. In the meantime, an experienced MC rider will be modulating their braking right to the edge of the available grip.

I like most riders mitigate our risks and we love EUC's. Thats cool, but I've never kidded myself that they are 'safe' compared to other forms of transport. As a result, I have had various friends say they would never set foot on one, my brother included. And he flys gyrocopters/rides MC's so he's not averse to risk.

[Cerbera]

I have to say this is why I honestly can't think that busy roads are the correct place for EUCs. I'd like for us to be ALLOWED on roads in circumstances where that is the most suitable option, but I don't think it's the safest place for us to be most of the time, and it's what confines me mainly to pavements, trails and cycle paths...

We are even more difficult to see than motor bikes, our machines are orders of magnitude more delicate and flakey, and not all of us have a spare grand or 3 to spend on a full set of padded riding leathers, which is genuinely what I think we need once we start going at MC speeds.

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Cerbera

[RamonatheCat]

Whether or not we belong on roads in my opinion is strongly influenced by the euc we are talking about. A kingsong 18xl versus a monster pro is night and day difference. To take it to an extreme an mten3 probably has no place in most places on the road. A master pro could probably behave quite similarly to a motorcycle at lower speed limited roads...

[Robse]

12 hours ago, Planemo said:

 the increased braking distance compared to an MC or even an MTB as has been mentioned. This one area is probably the bit that freaks me the most now that EUC's are hitting 40mph+. Hell, lets compare an EUC stopping distance at 50mph to a car or MC. The best EUC riders in the world won't even come close.

And theres the rub - the best riders can and indeed do flick their wheels around like houseflies, but they will still be fighting the laws of physics in an unforeseen 'oh shit' moment. Theres only so much a single tiny contact patch can do. And regards braking, I don't believe even the best front rail grabber will/can apply enough braking leverage to come close to breaching the available grip on an EUC.

Agree;  the only safe way to ride is to assume that there are no brakes at all, and to have that in mind ALL the time.  (nearly the same as dock a sailboat with a tiny outboard motor)

[enaon]

13 hours ago, Planemo said:

Hell, lets compare an EUC stopping distance at 50mph to a car or MC. The best EUC riders in the world won't even come close.

Bill is working on that, soon we will all have a way to check our breaking distances, our technique, response time  etc. 

For now, gotway users can use euc dash.

https://freestyl3r.github.io/euc-dash/begode.html




eucWatch will support this soon too for all wheels


@Seba @Ilya Shkolnik

Edited October 1, 2022 by enaon

[SammySoko]

On 9/30/2022 at 6:25 PM, Planemo said:

Sure they can be mitigated, but the fact remains that by default EUC's will never be as 'safe' as something with 2 or more wheels.

The physics of turning, braking and accelerating on a single tiny contact patch cannot, and will not ever be 'better' or even the same as having more contact patches. Further, weird things happen (oscillations/harmonics) with single wheels that either don't happen or can be largely controlled when using more wheels to assist with stability.

We've had this debate for years, and no doubt will do for many years to come.

The above is aside to the risk of cut outs, not to mention the increased braking distance compared to an MC or even an MTB as has been mentioned. This one area is probably the bit that freaks me the most now that EUC's are hitting 40mph+. Hell, lets compare an EUC stopping distance at 50mph to a car or MC. The best EUC riders in the world won't even come close.

And theres the rub - the best riders can and indeed do flick their wheels around like houseflies, but they will still be fighting the laws of physics in an unforeseen 'oh shit' moment. Theres only so much a single tiny contact patch can do. And regards braking, I don't believe even the best front rail grabber will/can apply enough braking leverage to come close to breaching the available grip on an EUC. I'm not sure the mobo's can even handle such currents. So an EUC doesn't even stop as well as it could do, even with one wheel. In the meantime, an experienced MC rider will be modulating their braking right to the edge of the available grip.

I like most riders mitigate our risks and we love EUC's. Thats cool, but I've never kidded myself that they are 'safe' compared to other forms of transport. As a result, I have had various friends say they would never set foot on one, my brother included. And he flys gyrocopters/rides MC's so he's not averse to risk.

I ride small displacement MCs daily. I use them for work and for errands if that particular errand is too far for my EUC to make it. at speeds of 25 mph and below, there is no competition. I am far more agile and able to avoid incidents and obstacles on my EUC than I am on any of my motorcycles. Once you get above that speed it starts to change a bit, but it's nowhere near as drastic is what your post seems to imply. The fact is, making tight Corners in any vehicle is virtually impossible at high speed. You have to slow down before the turn and accelerate through the turn. That's the way cornering works, but the difference is when you have 2 or more contact patches, the option to slide or drift is there if it comes to it. And while drifting is possible on an euc, I do not recommend it on asphalt lol. This is the same as when an unforeseen incident happens in front of you. If you're riding an eye toward the vehicle you're on and the specifications of it at all times, avoiding most accidents and other obstacles is very easy on an EUC. When something is unforeseeable and happens right in front of you, it doesn't matter what you're riding; you're going to have an accident. When this happens in a car or a truck, you are safer than if it happens on a motorcycle or any PEV. I would wager, that certain types of accidents are probably safer on an EUC than a motorcycle. And this is speaking from the experience of someone who has had accidents on motorcycles. As for stopping distances, I am pretty sure, though I admit I haven't actually done a specific test on this, that from 30 mph to zero on my EUC is pretty close to as fast as my Honda Super Cub c125 can do it. If it's different, I can guarantee it's negligible. You have to ride according to the parameters of your machine. I don't care if you're riding a motorcycle, a trike, an euc, a boosted board, or an e-bike - if your body is exposed then you need to be more aware than if it is not, and you need to keep your head on a swivel at all times ridind in accordance with your machines capabilities. I don't ride my c125 like I ride my GSXR, for instance. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by SammySoko
Using speech to text and saw too many incorrect words

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, SammySoko said:

 at speeds of 25 mph and below, there is no competition. I am far more agile and able to avoid incidents and obstacles on my EUC than I am on any of my motorcycles. 

I think we would agree on the agility, if not the braking. But with that agility comes skittishness and a whole plethora of other issues with physics that a single wheel is lumbered with.

I also think we are comparing apples to oranges somewhat. I have never ridden any MC's on pavements, cycle lanes or pedestrian areas so the reduced agility of them has never given me a problem. With the greatest respect, if you are counting on the agility of an EUC to avoid incidents, maybe you should be riding to the environment.

Now that people are doing 45+mph on single wheels, stability becomes an issue. The agility of EUC's that we know and love at sub 20mph speeds now becomes a hindrance as stability plummets at speed. Yes a Monster is still pretty stable (for an EUC) in a straight line at speed but it's still only got a single contact patch and the problems with physics remain. Try an emergency avoidance/braking at 45mph on one and come back to me. Given 45mph should only be done on a highway anyway, I would wager that you would hold a better hand of cards if you were on a decent 125cc MC. You have better braking ability and even if things start sliding you can potentially recover which aint gonna happen on an EUC at 45mph on asphalt.

Btw, I have 30 years on MC's, from mopeds to hayabusas, and my feelings on EUC's being 'least safe' remain. In addition, in those 30 years I only came off twice, both times entirely my fault with no other persons/vehicles involved so any reduced 'agility' of an MC in an MC environment certainly didnt hinder my progress.

In short, now that EUC's are doing MC/car speeds, they will never compete with the available traction (and therefore braking) or indeed handling that anything with more than one wheel has.

I'm not trying to be an arse, I love EUC's and have done 40+mph on them myself. But 'safe' at those speeds?.... hmm nah

[0000]

On 9/30/2022 at 11:25 PM, Planemo said:

The above is aside to the risk of cut outs, not to mention the increased braking distance compared to an MC or even an MTB as has been mentioned. This one area is probably the bit that freaks me the most now that EUC's are hitting 40mph+. Hell, lets compare an EUC stopping distance at 50mph to a car or MC. The best EUC riders in the world won't even come close.

I just wanted to highlight this to make a point after what @SammySoko said.

5 hours ago, SammySoko said:

Once you get above that speed it starts to change a bit, but it's nowhere near as drastic is what your post seems to imply.

While I agree that the immediate injuries to the rider of an unplanned dismount at speed are likely to be less than say a bike or motorcycle in an Over The Bars type accident provided the rider has the gear for the initial hit and then slide by the nature of having less distance to fall from, I think it's the possibilities of what happens after a wheel failure and subsequent cutout deserve a little more attention in this thread. Specifically, not about braking, leaving room, or assessing safe divergent paths when you are riding and in control, and more about what could happen when you aren't in control any more.

A fundamental flaw or risk with EUCs is that one connection failure in the various critical components controlling the balance function and keeping the rider in control can happen at any time for a variety of different reasons (manufacturing defect, substandard component, assembly error, weakening from fatigue/vibration). If this type of failure occurs, it can immediately result in the loss of control of the wheel. Compare this to a e-bike, an e-scooter, an e-skateboard, or an e-motorcycle - in any of these other PEVs, a failure of the electrical system allows the rider to control the slowing of their vehicle and most likely safely exit off of the roadway. This is not an option with a failure of the main electrical system on an EUC.

Some potential scenarios worth highlighting:

1. You're riding with traffic at 45 mph and the wheel cuts out. Good thing you wore your motorcycle gear with you today. Bad thing the driver behind has been following a little too close and either doesn't have F1 reaction times or is busy tweeting and driving. You're run over halfway into your uncontrolled slide.
    
2. You experience a cut-out/failure on the stroad coming up to a stoplight and the wheel dumps you at 30 mph. Good thing you wore your motorcycle gear with you today. Bad thing, you just launched a 30 mph 100 lb missile at the pedestrians in the cross-walk.

All-in-all, I think treating EUCs like any other PEV and especially viewing it as safer or less risky is simultaneously wrong and dangerous thinking. I think it behooves all riders to take precautions when and where they ride to try to minimize these risks around others, like not riding in or through heavy traffic if possible or at least minimizing exposure to it.

So to OP's point, yes, EUCs are an inherently dangerous form of transportation, but the rewards that come with riding are worth it (as long as you don't cause irreparable harm).

Edited October 4, 2022 by Vanturion

[Robse]

Technical about brakes and braking.
Braking is about applying force in "opposite" direction of movement,
and having the proper friction with the surface to do this.
There is a big difference between braking with a vehicle that
has only one wheel, and one that has two. And therein lies the
problem which bites on its own tail.  In order to have the maximum
braking effect you must have the maximum friction with the surface (ground)
If you brake on a MC, with the rear brake only, then the kinetic force,
which is a result of 0,5weight * velocity^2 , sits high above the wheel.  
And the more you brake with the rear wheel, the more the MC will
let the nose dive, and lift the rear wheel = loosing friction.
This goes on until the wheel starts skidding and eventually jumping on
the surface (bad or missing shock absorbers, hard tail.. ) = completely loss
of friction = no braking at all.
On the other hand, if you brake with the front brake, the friction will increase
and the braking gets "better and better" until the wheel skids (bad), or the MC
tumbles forvard in a somersault (really bad).
Then there is braking with both brakes.  Soft on the rear, and harder on the front.
For many this will be the ideal way to slow down fast, but it takes lots of practise
to sense when you brake "enough".  Anyway; fact is, that braking with to wheels
does not brake better(faster) than the front wheel only. If you can manage to brake
ideally on a MC, there wont be enough weight (downforce) on the rear wheel to create
any friction.  And since friction is a function of "friction_coefficient*force" , and
the force is relative to the area: 100 kg on 3 cm² (one wheel)  is the same as
50 kg on 6 cm² (two wheels) the friction on 2 wheels will only be the half on that
with one wheel.
However:  Our wheels has no real brake.  We cannot brake more than the motor will be able
to provide electrical resistance to, and unfortunately it is also the case that
wheels with powerfull engines are usually much heavier.
In theory the braking on a EUC could be almost equal to dropping an anchor, if we had
enough motor power. Imagine leaning back +80 degrees, the negativ speed (force) needed
to counteract this would be nearly infinite.

Oh what a mess - and not a word about braking and steering

Edited October 5, 2022 by Robse

[Eucner]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

And since friction is a function of "friction_coefficient*force" , and
the force is relative to the area: 100 kg on 3 cm² (one wheel)  is the same as
50 kg on 6 cm² (two wheels) the friction on 2 wheels will only be the half on that
with one wheel.

The braking (friction) force is friction coefficient (μ) times gravity force (m·g). When (de)acceleration is force divided with mass (Newton's 2nd law of motion), we get that deacceleration is friction coefficient times gravity constant (a = μ·g). The mass has vanished, and neither there is any area.

When friction coefficient is high, we need to also consider tires shear stress. Here comes area in. Two wheelers with larger combined contact area than one wheelers will have clear advantage.