Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[wstuart]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

There you go. The group rides are going to drive the market. 

Plus, there are always people who would like to be in the front of the group. So, if the manufacturers make a better faster wheel, someone us going to get it, and others will follow suit.

I agree that group rides influence people's purchasing decisions.  Both from a performance standpoint and a conspicuous consumption standpoint.

I am guilty of this.  I have to admit that I felt cool having the shiny new wheel that everyone wanted to try.  It was also nice NOT being the guy slowing the group down.  I don't necessarily want to be in the front, but it's nice not being 1/8th mile behind. 

Also group rides pushed me to get bigger faster wheels because they taught me how to ride faster.  Essentially I grew out of my V11 because of the experience I gained from group rides. 

[wstuart]

3 hours ago, techyiam said:

It appears the manufacturers got it right for many riders, especially for the US market.

There is a sizable market for these 95+ lbs. electric suspension wheels after all.

For you, it happened to be the Sherman-S, for another it could be the V13, and for Marty, it happened to be the Master Pro.

It looks like Kingsong is missing out in this class.

 

But for how long.

 

I think what Leaperkim got right was the shock.  I think Leaperkims design will be the standard.

 

Last night I got to ride my Sherman S back to back with a T4 and a master.  I've also ridden a Master with upgraded shock and Kuba suspension.  The Sherman S suspension is in a completely different class.  I promise I am not exaggerating when I say the jump from a T4 suspension to the Sherman S is as big as the jump from non-susoension to the T4.

The only other thing I can. Think to compare it to is mountain bikes.  I've owned and ridden several $500 "full suspension" mountain bikes.  I thought I knew what a full suspension mountain bike felt like to ride...... then one summer I rented a $7000 full suspension bike in Big Bear......... "Oh.... that's what suspension is supposed to feel like".

That's what it's like hoping on a Sherman S.

[Paul A]

7 minutes ago, wstuart said:

The Sherman S suspension is in a completely different class.

 

Maybe mount a phone, equipped with an app that measures vibrations, to each of the EUCs.

Ride over same course.

Objectively quantify and record comparison results.

 

 

 

 

[Paul D]

8 minutes ago, wstuart said:The only other thing I can. Think to compare it to is mountain bikes.  I've owned and ridden several $500 "full suspension" mountain bikes.  I thought I knew what a full suspension mountain bike felt like to ride...... then one summer I rented a $7000 full suspension bike in Big Bear......... "Oh.... that's what suspension is supposed to feel like".

That's what it's like hoping on a Sherman S.

Yes, but I do wonder what a fox float might feel like on a Sherman S

[wstuart]

21 minutes ago, Paulyd75 said:

Yes, but I do wonder what a fox float might feel like on a Sherman S

I'm not sure how that would work.  Fox float is an air shock.  Sherman S is a proprietary hydraulic shock.

This actually gets at the core of the difference.  The master, T4, Ex30, ex20 Hero and S22 all essentially use a mountain bike rear shock as their suspension.  Leaperkim took a "blank slate" approach and designed a suspension to work for an EUC - rather than the other way around.  Then they hired a company that actually knows that they're doing (Fast Ace) to design and manufacture the shock.

 

 

[wstuart]

54 minutes ago, Paul A said:

 

Maybe mount a phone, equipped with an app that measures vibrations, to each of the EUCs.

Ride over same course.

Objectively quantify and record comparison results.

 

 

 

 

I can offer a subjective standard comparison.  

There's a little stretch of road I go over to test suspension wheels.  It's two easy dips in the road (concrete water run-off kind) followed by a driveway entrance to a church parking lot.  The dips are easy to go over at speed.... the parking lot entrance is not.  For this test I go through these three obstacles at 20mph.  Here are the subjective results:

Sherman Max:

concrete dips are doable but I've gotta really bend my knees and go into offroad riding mode.  The parking lot entrance is not doable - I slow to 16 mph and even then the wheel catches air and I feel like I'm going to loose a filling (tooth).

 

Begode EX: 

almost bottoms out on the dips and severely bottoms out on the parking lot entrance.  Not comfortable but totally doable.  I actually really like the weight and stability of this wheel, it just bottoms out very easily.

 

V11:

soaks up the dips pretty well.  Bottoms out on the parking lot entrance and gets kicked into the air a little because of the lighter weight.  Not as comfortable and feels a little sketchy.

 

Sherman S :

I could probably go over the dips straight legged.  The pedals feel like they stay totally flat as the wheel extends down into the dip.  Pretty amazing.  The parking lot entrance actually still gives a pretty substantial jolt however - like borderline uncomfortable.  The wheel however doesnt feel disturbed.  Kinda feels like the ex but it does not bottm out.  This is where things get interesting..... after hitting a large bump like this on the Sherman S, the wheel does this cool wavy up and down oscillation.  It feels almost like riding on water.  My guess is that the suspension is dissipating the energy from the impact.  No other wheel does this and its super cool.

 

On my group ride last night I can remember two potholes I hit at ~27mph that actually felt a little sketchy on the Sherman S.  I remember thinking they would have been a crash on my Sherman Max and probably a pucker moment on my EX. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by wstuart

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, wstuart said:

after hitting a large bump like this on the Sherman S, the wheel does this cool waxy up and down oscillation.

That's traditionally known as pogo-sticking. Fine for street, not so great for off-road control.

Good thing these suspensions are adjustable!

[wstuart]

Just now, Tawpie said:

That's traditionally known as pogo-sticking. Fine for street, not so great for off-road control.

Good thing these suspensions are adjustable!

Yeah Indefinetly need to mess with the settings.  I have no idea what I'm doing in that regard. 

[KiwiMark]

4 hours ago, techyiam said:

But for how long.

It could be until the next wheel that is faster gets released, but really it is all dependant on the group you ride with.  I've never ridden with people that ride so fast that they are approaching the limits of the PEVs being ridden, so it is super easy to keep up while riding almost any EUC.  Most of my riding is solo and I'm happy as long as my wheel can easily and safely handle the speed that I feel comfortable riding at.  This is in many ways similar to my motorcycle, which almost never operates at its limit because that is way too fast to be riding on public roads and I've never taken it onto a racetrack . . . come to think of it I have ridden it on a racetrack, but I wasn't racing - it was just a couple of pace laps following behind some slow car (a Porsche I think, slow compared to a motorcycle at least).

I'm confident that the Sherman S will offer me enough that I won't care too much about what higher performance becomes available with new wheels. I'm mainly gaining more range & the comfort & safety benefits of suspension.  I've never run out of power or speed on my RS so that isn't something that I'm desperate for more of. This is why I don't really care about the new Commander Pro, I don't need 134V, I don't need more speed and I don't need more power.

[Tawpie]

5 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Yeah Indefinetly need to mess with the settings.  I have no idea what I'm doing in that regard. 

In the discord, there's a saying: "<potty mouth word redacted> around, find stuff out". With suspension, this is the way.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Tawpie

[superox]

Does anyone know if it's possible to set tiltback speed and alarms on Sherman S using EUC World? I'm guessing at least EUC World's own alarms are doable, but what about the wheel's own beeps, and tiltback? I'm mostly interested in "Enforce regulatory compliance" feature since EUCs are legal in my country, but have to be limited to 25 kph if the police comes checking.

 

[Planemo]

10 hours ago, wstuart said:

I'm not sure how that would work.  Fox float is an air shock.  Sherman S is a proprietary hydraulic shock.

This actually gets at the core of the difference.  The master, T4, Ex30, ex20 Hero and S22 all essentially use a mountain bike rear shock as their suspension.  Leaperkim took a "blank slate" approach and designed a suspension to work for an EUC - rather than the other way around.  Then they hired a company that actually knows that they're doing (Fast Ace) to design and manufacture the shock.

At the risk of being pedantic, 'Fox Float' doesn't designate rear only though. Float is simply their tech. I think the OP may have simply been suggesting that the use of a high quality Fox Float fork instead of FastAce may be better. I would have to agree, FastAce is a total no-name in the MTB world and I have absolutely no doubt that Fox and likely even RockShox would be higher quality (but also a lot more expensive). But you're absolutely right, theres nothing from either of them that would be remotely suitable in terms of fitment to the SS, and I very much doubt they would be interested in making something given the low volume.

Again, being pedantic the SS isn't a 'hydraulic' shock, its a coil.

[wstuart]

6 minutes ago, Planemo said:

At the risk of being pedantic, 'Fox Float' doesn't designate rear only though. Float is simply their tech. I think the OP may have simply been suggesting that the use of a high quality Fox Float fork instead of FastAce may be better. I would have to agree, FastAce is a total no-name in the MTB world and I have absolutely no doubt that Fox and likely even RockShox would be higher quality (but also a lot more expensive). But you're absolutely right, theres nothing from either of them that would be remotely suitable in terms of fitment to the SS, and I very much doubt they would be interested in making something given the low volume.

Again, being pedantic the SS isn't a 'hydraulic' shock, its a coil.

Interesting.  Yeah I hope one day we get big enough to attract companies like Fox

[Zach N]

Took my new sherman S out for a 100 mile shake down cruise yesterday. Admittedly my first suspension wheel, but with the mix of bike path, single track and rough roads I found it to be a game changer once I tamed the ride height and weight. I found that I was able to observe more around me than be fixated on the next terrain set of obstacles. There is definitely safety in the suspension wheels that I underestimated. There are several moments I should have wrecked or at least would've had a close call if it weren't for the forgiveness of the suspension. I was also able to see deer on the sides of the trail far in advance allowing me to brake as the crossed our path. If we can get the weight and price down I think suspension is here to stay, and will make riding much safer for us all. I was averaging about 25-30 mph and peaked at 42 on open road and the battery was able to give me 60 miles before dipping to 30%. Admittedly flatter route, but was able to tackle 30 degree grades on dirt/gravel with relative ease. Truly felt like a Sherman max with suspension, which is all I ever desired from a wheel. I'll let everyone know what the long term riding results are as I continue to break the wheel in.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Zach N

[Steve Evans]

1 hour ago, Zach N said:

Took my new sherman S out for a 100 mile shake down cruise yesterday. Admittedly my first suspension wheel, but with the mix of bike path, single track and rough roads I found it to be a game changer once I tamed the ride height and weight. I found that I was able to observe more around me than be fixated on the next terrain set of obstacles. There is definitely safety in the suspension wheels that I underestimated. There are several moments I should have wrecked or at least would've had a close call if it weren't for the forgiveness of the suspension. I was also able to see deer on the sides of the trail far in advance allowing me to brake as the crossed our path. If we can get the weight and price down I think suspension is here to stay, and will make riding much safer for us all. I was averaging about 25-30 mph and peaked at 42 on open road and the battery was able to give me 60 miles before dipping to 30%. Admittedly flatter route, but was able to tackle 30 degree grades on dirt/gravel with relative ease. Truly felt like a Sherman max with suspension, which is all I ever desired from a wheel. I'll let everyone know what the long term riding results are as I continue to break the wheel in.

thank you zach. that is almost exactly my use-case. i will be happy if i can that kind of range.

[techyiam]

Firstly, there appears to be a significant numbers of Sherman-S out in the field already, based on the number of postings on here, YouTube, and other social media. And the feedback from owners continues to sound overwhelmingly positive. 

Secondly, the Sherman-S is shaping up to be bucking the horrific trend formed over the last few years of dreadful early batch issues. So far, the loudest complaints have only been the not so grippy and rusty pedals, and the flexi-trolley handle.

And lastly, the Sherman-S is earning its place as the true replacement of the original Sherman.

I am starting to feel hopeful that electric wheel manufacturers are capable of releasing new wheels that can be enjoyed by their owners, but without the dramaful ownership experience.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by techyiam

[Clem604]

I'm excited to see the smaller wheel that Leaperkim has been working on. It would be super cool if it was a scaled down Sherman S or even a mini Shermax but I we will see. There is market for a T4/V12 sized or smaller wheel that I feel is underserved at the moment so hopefully LK can knock it out of the park in that segment.

Edited January 15, 2023 by Clem604

[Funky]

50 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Firstly, there appears to be a significantly numbers of Sherman-S out in the field already, based on the number of postings on here, YouTube,  and other social media. And the feedback from owners continues to sound overwhelmingly positive. 

Secondly, the Sherman-S is shaping up to be bucking the horrific trend formed over the last few years of dreadful early batch issues. So far, the loudest complaints have only been the not so grippy and rusty pedals, and the flexi-trolley handle.

And lastly, the Sherman-S is earning its place as the true replacement of the original Sherman.

I am starting to feel hopeful that electric wheel manufacturers are capable of releasing new wheels that can be enjoyed by their owners, but without the dramaful ownership experience.  

Doh all those wheels in the "wild" are still kinda new.. After ~5000-10000 km there may be some problems. It's to early to talk about any wheel - which isn't at least year old. Have put on some distance.

 

I still would take Sherman Max over Sherman-S..

But that's me. I like wheels that doesn't need much of a maintenance. Also that direct feeling connected to ground. Nowadays everyone wants a suspension - everybody is so spoiled.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by Funky

[dycus]

4 hours ago, Planemo said:

I would have to agree, FastAce is a total no-name in the MTB world and I have absolutely no doubt that Fox and likely even RockShox would be higher quality (but also a lot more expensive).

Still miles better than the world-class suspension companies that have designed all other EUC suspension - KingSong, Begode, and InMotion.

At least KS uses shocks from DNM, but that doesn't help when their sliders and linkages bind up.

FastAce may be "no-name" on the global scale, but they obviously have loads more experience specifically designing suspension components than has ever been brought to the EUC market before. And that seems to show, at least given all the initial impressions!

[techyiam]

15 minutes ago, Funky said:

I still would take Sherman Max over Sherman-S.

Perfectly cool. To each their own. But either wheel won't feel like a feather weight if you have to carry it up to the third floor. Having said that, if you ever get a chance to hop on a Sherman-S, take it. If you are serious enough of a rider to take a Sherman Max, then you would want to try out a Sherman-S. 

15 minutes ago, Funky said:

Doh all those wheels in the "wild" are still kinda new.. After ~5000-10000 km there may be some problems. It's to early to talk about any wheel - which isn't at least year old. Have put on some miles.

Think along the line of J. D. Power initial quality assessment.

Long term ownership assessment is another type of assessment. But in the electric wheel world, most owners change their wheels as often as Begode releases new models. 🙂

 

[techyiam]

11 minutes ago, dycus said:

FastAce may be "no-name" on the global scale, but they obviously have loads more experience specifically designing suspension components than has ever been brought to the EUC market before. And that seems to show, at least given all the initial impressions!

+1.

After hoping on a Sherman-S, there is no denying the bar raising, refined, and butter smooth suspension action of the Sherman-S in the electric wheel world, despite FastAce's reputation as a MTB suspension component manufacturer. Kudos to both Leaper Kim and FadtAce. They did good.

[BKW]

I saw the SS in person for the first time yesterday. Just by looking at it, it is definitely quality-looking. It seems smaller than what I expected so I have no worries about the size or weight of this thing. My SherMax is roughly 10lbs lighter and it's light to me now. I'll be able to throw around the SS no problem if I were to get it I think

[wstuart]

42 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

I'm excited to see the smaller wheel that Leaperkim has been working on. It would be super cool if it was a scaled down Sherman S or even a mini Shermax but I we will see. There is market for a T4/V12 sized or smaller wheel that I feel is underserved at the moment so hopefully LK can knock it out of the park in that segment.

16 inch, ~2000wh, 100v, baby Sherman - S????

Please take my money now Jason......

[wstuart]

1 minute ago, BKW said:

I saw the SS in person for the first time yesterday. Just by looking at it, it is definitely quality-looking. It seems smaller than what I expected so I have no worries about the size or weight of this thing. My SherMax is roughly 10lbs lighter and it's light to me now. I'll be able to throw around the SS no problem if I were to get it I think

I had the Sherman Max before I got the Sherman S.  

Sherman S is definetly more nimble than Shermax.  Initially I was not thinking I would use the Sherman S as a trail wheel, but it's nimbleness and high pedals made it very capable on the trail.  I'm glad I opted or the kKenda knobby.  Just be sure to replace the pedal screw with mountain bike studs before going offroad.  

[BKW]

2 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I had the Sherman Max before I got the Sherman S.  

Sherman S is definetly more nimble than Shermax.  Initially I was not thinking I would use the Sherman S as a trail wheel, but it's nimbleness and high pedals made it very capable on the trail.  I'm glad I opted or the kKenda knobby.  Just be sure to replace the pedal screw with mountain bike studs before going offroad.  

Thanks. Unfortunately, I was not able to test the wheel myself and only got to briefly look at it. More nimble than the SherMax? Hm. Interesting. Probably because the height of the pedals I suppose