Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[MrMonoWheel]

17 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Personally, I think that if someone wants to ride their EUC at over 50mph then they should probably buy a higher voltage wheel, but not all of us are interested in riding at that sort of speed. Riding around a city where the speed limit is mostly 30mph, I'm happy with a wheel that can manage speeds up to 40mph and I doubt that I'll spend much time above 35mph.  I generally don't exceed 35mph on my RS HS, despite it having pretty much the same top speed available as the Sherman S.  I find I can get around the city quickly and easily without exceeding 35mph.

On the flat most cyclists on normal bikes wouldn't exceed 20mph (maybe in a brief sprint, but not sustained), so the EUC is already considerably faster than bicycle, even for the slowest 100V wheel on that list.  Most of those 100V wheels can move at more than double the speed of a fit and healthy cyclist.  If I can zip along at a good pace and get a really good range while doing so then I'm very happy with the speed & performance of what I'm riding.  A stable wheel with good working suspension that feels good to ride and has no trouble hitting 60kph sounds like a winner to me, for my riding needs/wants at least.

I don't plan on riding at 50mph, but having the headroom is nice.

My comment in the v13 thread kinda follows your sentiment.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/25710-inmotion-v13-speculation/?do=findComment&comment=445027

[mrelwood]

 

12 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

Again you conflate higher voltage (126-134) with higher speed, irrespective of motor winding or other factors. I grant that among existing wheels higher voltage correlates cleanly with more power and speed potential vs released lower-voltage models. I'm saying this isn't a causative relationship, such that there's any obstacle to a new lower-voltage wheel (such as Sherman S) outperforming higher voltage wheels, or at least performing as well.

I was so expecting to see someone compare the Z10 to other wheels of it’s time:

Z10, 59.x V, 45 (60) km/h, 68? km/h, 2000W

18XL, 84 V, 50 km/h, ?? km/h, 2200W

MSX 100, 100 V, 60? km/h, 84? km/h, 2000 W

My chart is a total joke compared and I didn’t even bother to check the validity of the numbers, but even still, it’s known that one can make a 59V wheel that can be rideable all the way up to 60km/h (with a hacked firmware).

 The main factor here is that GotWay has recycled it’s ancient C30 and C38 motors as is since something like 2018, while the Z10 and some others have a truly custom one-off motor. This probably steers people’s beliefs as well: Since GotWay wheels still use the same motors, it’s easy to compare how the speed changes when changing just the controller.

 It also makes people think that there are just two types of motors: HS and HT. While in reality I’m sure the Kv value, magnet width and other factors can be chosen quite freely when designing a motor. This binary setting is just how GotWay made the motors back then, and since they want to optimize the design phase of a wheel to a ridiculous degree, they still stick to the same exact paradigm.

But other manufacturers don’t seem to have a similar incentive to recycle the same ancient motors over and over, so they can easily do as @Todd Fahrner said, to increase and decrease the Kv value of the motor as they please. And hence make it better match the controller.

 

5 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

There is a trend here. All the 100.8v wheels are choosing either speed or torque.

More like “All GotWay wheels are choosing either speed or torque”. The same two motors making the crux of the list.

 

5 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

On average the 100.8v begode wheels have a free spin speed of 14mph over the max riding speed, effectively being your safety margin. Now if we look at the 134v begode wheels, they average a free spin speed of 20.4mph over the (already faster) max riding speed, netting a larger safety margin.

I’d call the safety margin to be about the same, at 25-30%. And Inmotion traditionally has a 30-35% margin, which applies to the V13 just as well. Nothing new.

 

5 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

a higher voltage wheel nets more power across the board, with the advantage of being able to carry you into higher speeds with a larger free spin margin before cutout.

The wheel’s power is not at all solely related to the voltage. It’s just how the wheels are currently being made. Just like wider tires on a car don’t make it go faster, it’s just what makes more sense to manufacture.

Higher voltages are a new trend. Higher power is a trend that the markets have been going for since the beginning. One doesn’t cause the other.

[MrMonoWheel]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

I was so expecting to see someone compare the Z10 to other wheels of it’s time:

Z10, 59.x V, 45 (60) km/h, 68? km/h, 2000W

18XL, 84 V, 50 km/h, ?? km/h, 2200W

MSX 100, 100 V, 60? km/h, 84? km/h, 2000 W

My chart is a total joke compared and I didn’t even bother to check the validity of the numbers, but even still, it’s known that one can make a 59V wheel that can be rideable all the way up to 60km/h (with a hacked firmware).

 The main factor here is that GotWay has recycled it’s ancient C30 and C38 motors as is since something like 2018, while the Z10 and some others have a truly custom one-off motor. This probably steers people’s beliefs as well: Since GotWay wheels still use the same motors, it’s easy to compare how the speed changes when changing just the controller.

 It also makes people think that there are just two types of motors: HS and HT. While in reality I’m sure the Kv value, magnet width and other factors can be chosen quite freely when designing a motor. This binary setting is just how GotWay made the motors back then, and since they want to optimize the design phase of a wheel to a ridiculous degree, they still stick to the same exact paradigm.

But other manufacturers don’t seem to have a similar incentive to recycle the same ancient motors over and over, so they can easily do as @Todd Fahrner said, to increase and decrease the Kv value of the motor as they please. And hence make it better match the controller.

 

More like “All GotWay wheels are choosing either speed or torque”. The same two motors making the crux of the list.

 

I’d call the safety margin to be about the same, at 25-30%. And Inmotion traditionally has a 30-35% margin, which applies to the V13 just as well. Nothing new.

 

The wheel’s power is not at all solely related to the voltage. It’s just how the wheels are currently being made. Just like wider tires on a car don’t make it go faster, it’s just what makes more sense to manufacture.

Higher voltages are a new trend. Higher power is a trend that the markets have been going for since the beginning. One doesn’t cause the other.

Regardless of all this, I'll buy the wheel with the best top speed/headroom/torque combo which in the current market is going to be a high voltage wheel. I am aware most of the list uses the same motors on begodes end, unfortunately thats just the data I could most easily find. My point is I don't care about voltage, I care about overall performance and efficiency. And with the way things are right now, that seems to point me towards a higher voltage wheel. 

Keep in mind I still have a pre order for the Sherman S. 

[techyiam]

31 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

My point is I don't care about voltage, I care about overall performance and efficiency. And with the way things are right now, that seems to point me towards a higher voltage wheel. 

+1

Unless V13 prove otherwise, Begode's 134.4 V motor drive system does appear to be class leader in the top speed category so far. 

The best we have seen so far from the V13 is about 80 km/h. 

And regarding Sherman-S vs V13 in the top speed and head room category, the jury is still out because the domestic testers are still looking for a Kamikaze pilot. 🙂 

On the other hand, thanks to a Kamikaze pilot in Dubai, we now know the Master Pro cuts out at a hair above 100 km/h, which is higher than any 100 V euc has ever attained on level ground.

Edited November 14, 2022 by techyiam

[RagingGrandpa]

On 11/11/2022 at 10:08 PM, KiwiMark said:

Any recommendations for a good 100.8V 8-10A charger?

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/tags/pmbatterychargers 

[GothamMike]

Sticky Shocks?

Someone sent me a WrongWay video and the Sherm-S shocks were a little sticky. Gaskets?

[Tasku]

Just spinning here a sneaking fear I had about em shocks in sherm-s, but they might not work if you use em in negative degrees. And if that was the fault this case, I HOPE they select better oils!

[mrelwood]

The issue in the video was not about the oil, since the position changed fast once he pushed harder. Sticky oil would be stickier the harder you compress.

 The unit that Eevees disassembled had some wear marks around the suspension. Maybe due to a slight position change the same spot now drags much harder?

Or, worst case scenario, Fastace was not able to take into account the large lateral forces that the suspension would be under.

[Steve Evans]

1 hour ago, GothamMike said:

Sticky Shocks?

Someone sent me a WrongWay video and the Sherm-S shocks were a little sticky. Gaskets?

can u share that video? thanks

[GothamMike]

Look at those pants! 

[techyiam]

Ecodrift-Life Teardown  of the Sherman-S. 

 

[RagingGrandpa]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Ecodrift-Life Teardown

... and web writeup:  https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2022/11/15/veteran-sherman-s-razbiraem/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

We were right!

On 9/11/2022 at 4:20 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

On 9/10/2022 at 2:27 PM, techyiam said:

twenty-four 125V mosfets, and supports 680 A max.

Ah. Well that must be HY3712 then

It's double the resistance of SherMax; and they're using twice as many of them to compensate. 
Looks appropriate and unremarkable to me...

 

[dycus]

Very thorough teardown, Ecodrift never disappoints. And finally, properly sealed suspension elements!

[techyiam]

What do you know, EcoDrift-Life pointed out that the Sherman-S motor is pinned. 

Hmm. Is pinning now considered a good practice?

[KiwiMark]

I just watched this Sherman S review:

 

[MrMonoWheel]

 

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[KiwiMark]

Watching the ride reviews, you can even hear that Adam is smiling as he is talking & riding.  It makes me wish that the faster shipping had been available to New Zealand.  But boy have I spent a lot between ordering the Sherman S and the V12HT and then I spend quite a bit of money with Grizzla - buying a set of Flow (large) pads and a set of Flow (compact) pads.  I'll be setting up both the V12HT and the Sherman S with Grizzla Flow pads!

[MrMonoWheel]

Just read through the EcoDrift teardown and watched the video. Heres some thoughts:

- The capacitors not being glued down is something I'd personally pop in and fix with some silicone, as the vibration from thousands of miles can fatigue the legs.
- The battery cases seem alright but the seals could be better and the plastic back panels seem like they are mostly there for looks, not for protecting the batteries from water and dust.
- The way both halves of the suspension are not joined by a single solid member is concerning as well, but we have been over that before. Through the images I see multiple ways they could have integrated this into the casting at very little (if any) additional cost.
- The thermal joint between the main board and the heatsink is an absolute joke. I'm not sure if its due to the surfaces not being flat or they just didn't apply enough thermal paste across the board, but that's something that should be fixed. 
- We still have no easy way to remove the motor for tire changes.
- The axle nut that dented into the suspension leg
- The power wires passing through what looks like a crudely drilled hole in the side of the magnesium case.
- The batteries being joined out the bottom of the cases by that cable isn't ideal

The castings look like they are very well made and fit together tightly, the large magnesium top with the fins will dissipate heat well, the lights are very well sealed, the motor wires are nicely routed and dont appear to be in any danger, and the motor quality looks excellent. 

From WrongWay's video, seems like a great riding wheel! Watching him take it up stairs in slow motion really had me concerned for the balance of the suspension system and how it transmits the force through the bolted joints, but it seems fine for now. Hopefully the suspension itself can handle such lateral forces. Near the end of his video he discusses how its already gotten slightly sticky, which is definitely concerning. Being an internally lubricated oil shock the only way I can see it getting sticky is that something is already wearing.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[wstuart]

45 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

 

 

I wonder what's making the suspension stick?  I wonder if he will see similar friction wear as the eevees wheel when he does his teardown. 

[Clem604]

14 minutes ago, wstuart said:

I wonder what's making the suspension stick?  I wonder if he will see similar friction wear as the eevees wheel when he does his teardown. 

Maybe it's the cold temps here right now? . We are currently experiencing around 2-6C temps here in Vancouver. It could be a reason but I have no way of confirming. The funny thing is I've seen Adam ripping around on the Sherman S and it seemed like he was having a great time, looks like I was right.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Clem604

[MrMonoWheel]

2 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

Maybe it's the cold temps here right now? . We are currently experiencing around 2-6C temps here in Vancouver. It could be a reason but I have no way of confirming. The funny thing is I've seen Adam ripping around on the Sherman S and it seemed like he was having a great time, looks like I was right.

It was sticking in his apartment though, which is assume is around room temperature. Also if it was due to the oil it should get better as you ride and the oil warms up. I believe it to be something internal that is wearing.

[Clem604]

21 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

It was sticking in his apartment though, which is assume is around room temperature. Also if it was due to the oil it should get better as you ride and the oil warms up. I believe it to be something internal that is wearing.

Yeah your probably right, I wonder what's up with it. Whatever it is I hope that this was just a one off, if not I hope they have it figured it out by batch 2 😅

Edited November 16, 2022 by Clem604

[Freeforester]

2 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

It was sticking in his apartment though, which is assume is around room temperature. Also if it was due to the oil it should get better as you ride and the oil warms up. I believe it to be something internal that is wearing.

Could it not equally be something else requiring adjustment or tuning, as opposed to actual wear, though?

I mean it’s more of a teaser the way it is presented in the video than any red flag - to my knowledge, none of us have as yet seen any investigation into the issue, but I’d be confident in saying/believing that IF it indeed does transpire that the problem is caused by wear after a mere 395km use, then Leaperkim/Fastace have a S22-like lemon to deal with, and pronto; but - do you REALLY believe this to be the case? How much time and kilometres of testing and checking do you imagine or think Leaperkim/Fastace have made into this new suspension system, again, remembering why Leaperkim set themselves up after leaving Begode? 

Whatever the issue, I’d be nearly as stunned as Lk/Fa to find out it was indeed  ‘wear’ on something internal, but I do see as we all have that something is not quite right with the suspension’s fluidity in the video. But until we determine the actual cause/s of the apparent stiction, I’m not too inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Time of course will ultimately tell!

Edited November 16, 2022 by Freeforester

[MrMonoWheel]

4 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Could it not equally be something else requiring adjustment or tuning, as opposed to actual wear, though?

I mean it’s more of a teaser the way it is presented in the video than any red flag - to my knowledge, none of us have as yet seen any investigation into the issue, but I’d be confident in saying/believing that IF it indeed does transpire that the problem is caused by wear after a mere 395km use, then Leaperkim/Fastace have a S22-like lemon to deal with, and pronto; but - do you REALLY believe this to be the case? How much time and kilometres of testing and checking do you imagine or think Leaperkim/Fastace have made into this new suspension system, again, remembering why Leaperkim set themselves up after leaving Begode? 

Whatever the issue, I’d be nearly as stunned as Lk/Fa to find out it was indeed  ‘wear’ on something internal, but I do see as we all have that something is not quite right with the suspension’s fluidity in the video. But until we determine the actual cause/s of the apparent stiction, I’m not too inclined to throw the baby out with the bath water.  Time of course will ultimately tell!

I'd be curious to see the internals of one of the suspension legs. If the forks don't have enough oil in them, or the oil isnt able to easily reach the upper bushings, this could entirely be the reason for the stiction he feels. A way to tell would be to turn the wheel upside down and pump the suspension a few times. If the stiction goes away we know it's a lubrication issue of the upper bushings. 

If no one does it by the time I get my wheel, I plan to disassemble the forks and see what's going on inside.

[Planemo]

Not having the two legs rigidly tied together could well lead to excessive stiction. The tolerances between the internal bushings and stanchions should be virtually zero and therefore any flex anywhere along the leg is unwanted.

You can see initial stiction on impact on these slo-mo MTB vids. Granted the legs are a lot shorter on the Sherman but it's surprising just how much flex is found even in big name suspension brands, and this is even with the legs being tied together at 3 points.