Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Unicycle Santa said:

That's my main hesitation with the Sherman and why I have a v13 on preorder. All the roads in my area are pretty open and smooth so cruising around 35-45 is ideal, but on a wheel that maxes out at 45 it's not the most comfortable feeling. However the Sherman has that sweet sweet suspension.

Wait a minute. Did you not buy a Sherman-S from GT King Store.? Or I got you mixed up with someone else?

Edited November 12, 2022 by techyiam

[Todd Fahrner]

1 hour ago, wstuart said:

I haven't either but from what I've heard the extra voltage really helps for guys who want to cruise in the 40-45mph range.  At 100v, 45 mph on an 18 inch wheel is playing with fire.  At 134v you still have plenty of headroom.

 

Not an engineer, and I welcome correction. But: I don't see the benefit of higher voltage outside of highly qualified contexts. It's like saying a faster wheel is more powerful than a torquier, when power is the compound of both these qualities. All things equal, if you raise the voltage, yes, a given motor will turn faster than with lower. But if you change the winding of the motor to run faster on the lower voltage, it can be quite the same. A lower voltage system can perform almost identically to a higher, as long as it can sustainably handle the higher amperage required for a given power output. Fewer windings=faster per volt, and also less internal resistance assuming thicker wire used for the windings (=better able to handle high amps to make up the torque gap of fewer windings). There may be compelling production engineering reasons to select a higher voltage in a given design/manufacturing process, but pretty sure you can also design a lower voltage system to outcompete a higher. For one thing, a smaller number of higher capacity cells (=lower voltage) is inherently more robust than one with more smaller cells (=higher voltage) as having fewer connections or opportunities for cell imbalance. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Todd Fahrner

[MrMonoWheel]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Wait a minute. Did you not buy a Sherman-S from GT King Store.? Or I got you mixed up with someone else?

Oh no I ordered both, but since neither have shipped yet I can still cancel one. I bought them in advance so I can get the good deal while I wait for more info to come out, then cancel one. Currently I'm leaning towards the v13 

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Currently I'm leaning towards the v13

I see thanks.

Aside from higher top speed, what are your reasons for tipping the scale in V13's favor? 

[Jon Wall]

100v is still capable of 40 45mph . My Max has done 47.5 and I regularly travel 40-45 mph on smoother pavement for miles.  My v1 Sherman powered suspension wheel I call my Contraption, regularly does 40 45 mph on smooth sections with a Max of 50mph at a short burst.  This is fast enough for me. Even Hsiang says the Master is less stable above that.  Stopping above those speeds must be a thrill too. The Challenger looks great too but I think its weight will feel clumsy,  at least that's the impression I get when watching others ride it anywhere other than straight perfect pavement.  Hsiang made the Sherman-S look like my ideal wheel, very excited 

[360rumors]

8 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

I learned that "made in USA" does not equate to quality. 

That is true, but in this context, I'm hoping it would be much better than the quality we've seen from EUCs made and designed in China.

[UPONIT]

8 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

I learned that "made in USA" does not equate to quality. 

Can I add a word?

"Made in USA" does not necessarily equate to quality.

[UPONIT]

19 minutes ago, 360rumors said:

That is true, but in this context, I'm hoping it would be much better than the quality we've seen from EUCs made and designed in China.

It would be at least twice as expensive, since (I may be wrong) there is not a huge amount of automation in EUC manufacturing. Automation would allow for domestic production without a huge increase in labor costs. Currently, American designers and builders would cost 2-3 times as much as their Chinese counterparts (their labor, not the people themselves ). In theory, I'm willing to pay more for high-quality domestic products, in order to keep us all gainfully employed. But it's never a simple decision.

[KiwiMark]

1 minute ago, UPONIT said:

It would be at least twice as expensive, since (I may be wrong) there is not a huge amount of automation in EUC manufacturing. Automation would allow for domestic production without a huge increase in labor costs. Currently, American designers and builders would cost 2-3 times as much as their Chinese counterparts (their labor, not the people themselves ). In theory, I'm willing to pay more for high-quality domestic products, in order to keep us all gainfully employed. But it's never a simple decision.

You are quite likely correct.  To really make these cheaper they would probably need to make a LOT more of them, but these are quite a niche product that just don't sell in high enough numbers to get the manufacturing costs down.  When you make many millions of something, then you tend to set up production to do it very efficiently and as cheaply as you can do it - I can't see any model of EUCs selling many millions of units.

[MrMonoWheel]

21 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

Not an engineer, and I welcome correction. But: I don't see the benefit of higher voltage outside of highly qualified contexts. It's like saying a faster wheel is more powerful than a torquier, when power is the compound of both these qualities. All things equal, if you raise the voltage, yes, a given motor will turn faster than with lower. But if you change the winding of the motor to run faster on the lower voltage, it can be quite the same. A lower voltage system can perform almost identically to a higher, as long as it can sustainably handle the higher amperage required for a given power output. Fewer windings=faster per volt, and also less internal resistance assuming thicker wire used for the windings (=better able to handle high amps to make up the torque gap of fewer windings). There may be compelling production engineering reasons to select a higher voltage in a given design/manufacturing process, but pretty sure you can also design a lower voltage system to outcompete a higher. For one thing, a smaller number of higher capacity cells (=lower voltage) is inherently more robust than one with more smaller cells (=higher voltage) as having fewer connections or opportunities for cell imbalance. 

Edit: was boozed, forgot the fundamentals of electromagnetism and electric motors. Now that I am more clear headed, I can say that I'd prefer a higher voltage wheel because at higher speeds you are in a more efficient area of the wheels performance curve. There's definitely a sweet spot regarding speed/amperage/air resistance and I feel as though 126-134 is that point. Any faster than this and drag is really going to be an issue, requiring wheels to push drastically more power to go faster. At 126-134v we get the torque and the speed for handling almost anything. 

 

20 hours ago, techyiam said:

I see thanks.

Aside from higher top speed, what are your reasons for tipping the scale in V13's favor? 

Keep in mind I only know as much as you guys, this is all from speculation and my own logic. I am currently tipping in the V13's favor because I have a v11 for slower speed stuff (college campus mainly), but I often find myself wanting to just cruise for miles at 40-45ish mph. I feel more confident in the V13 having so much headroom at those speeds over the sherman S. Second, the V13's lights are far better and I feel the wheel is better waterproofed. It just comes across as a tank of a wheel. Lastly, I like inmotion's method of preventing overpowering their wheels. The dynamic tiltback that comes into play based on speed/power draw makes me feel much safer when riding. The wheel is heavier, the suspension is probably not AS good as the sherman (however I heard from a rider who is testing both wheels and he was actually very pleased with the v13), but overall as a wheel that I can use to go 40-50 miles without worry the v13 takes the edge. 

 

19 hours ago, Jon Wall said:

100v is still capable of 40 45mph . My Max has done 47.5 and I regularly travel 40-45 mph on smoother pavement for miles.  My v1 Sherman powered suspension wheel I call my Contraption, regularly does 40 45 mph on smooth sections with a Max of 50mph at a short burst.  This is fast enough for me. Even Hsiang says the Master is less stable above that.  Stopping above those speeds must be a thrill too. The Challenger looks great too but I think its weight will feel clumsy,  at least that's the impression I get when watching others ride it anywhere other than straight perfect pavement.  Hsiang made the Sherman-S look like my ideal wheel, very excited 

The sherman S definitely is fantastic, I agree. Im currently at a 55/45 split between inmotion and sherman and it changes daily. I just like the V13's headroom and tank-like build. 

 

15 hours ago, UPONIT said:

Can I add a word?

"Made in USA" does not necessarily equate to quality.

I agree. Just like "Made in China" does not necessarily equate to bad quality. And as others said, if they were made in the USA they would cost double.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[InfiniteWheelie]

From what I've seen about InMotion (never owned one), they seem to have much better quality and safety. This dynamic tilt back that was mentioned, the smart BMS, the multiple temperature sensors (including inside the battery), the waterproofing etc.

These features are all either missing or half baked on other wheels, including the Sherman-S. In my opinion the only special things about this wheel are the epic suspension and the metal casing, and unfortunately they probably implemented them wrong with how they attached them.

I'm done wasting my time on wheels (or other PEVs) that aren't waterproof, or lacking safety features. Good on Leaperkim for helping to push things forward, but I'm going with the V13 for my next wheel. InMotion is just on another level of refinement.

Edited November 13, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie

[MrMonoWheel]

42 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

From what I've seen about InMotion (never owned one), they seem to have much better quality and safety. This dynamic tilt back that was mentioned, the smart BMS, the multiple temperature sensors (including inside the battery), the waterproofing etc.

These features are all either missing or half baked on other wheels, including the Sherman-S. In my opinion the only special things about this wheel are the epic suspension and the metal casing, and unfortunately they probably implemented them wrong with how they attached them.

I'm done wasting my time on wheels (or other PEVs) that aren't waterproof, or lacking safety features. Good on Leaperkim for helping to push things forward, but I'm going with the V13 for my next wheel. InMotion is just on another level of refinement.

Yep I agree. Idk why a lot of people give inmotion shit. I think it's cause inmotion promises big things and sometimes falls short, but like at least they are trying to take steps forward. Other companies (cough begode cough) just pump out wheels and the buyers know they aren't going to be perfect so if something happens they aren't THAT shocked. I'm most likely going with inmotion for my next wheel as well.

[InfiniteWheelie]

49 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Yep I agree. Idk why a lot of people give inmotion shit. I think it's cause inmotion promises big things and sometimes falls short, but like at least they are trying to take steps forward. Other companies (cough begode cough) just pump out wheels and the buyers know they aren't going to be perfect so if something happens they aren't THAT shocked. I'm most likely going with inmotion for my next wheel as well.

I was also flipping back and forth between the Sherman-S and V13. The suspension really tempted me, but after learning more about InMotion wheels I realized they just have way more features and better quality. Plus I wanted a bigger/more powerful wheel anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Sherman basher or anything, I had one myself and liked it well enough.

Edited November 13, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie

[mrelwood]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:28 AM, UtahRider said:

 I really believe the 16x would be my favorite if it had 10 mph more top speed as I find riding in the low 30s the sweet spot but unfortunately that’s 16x cutout speed.

16X is not a GotWay though, so it doesn’t really have a “cutout speed”. The speed is limited to 31mph, which is below the cutout speed, which you can therefore never reach.

 That said, 16X is definitely not a wheel for 30mph riders, as it’s power gets a bit too weak near the top speed.

[jmsjms]

 

Is it possible for someone to test the Sherman-S being walked up and down the stairs with the trolley handle? I am trying to be creative here and figure out if it's possible to avoid lifting the ~97lbs.... Imagine buying a wheel... only to get disappointed that you can't even carry it up and down from your apartment.

[jmsjms]

On one of the videos, the user discussed that something on the suspension is wearing out for only several hours of riding, which will be fixed for production models. Can someone elaborate on this? The production models are coming now... has it been fixed?

[Rawnei]

28 minutes ago, jmsjms said:

On one of the videos, the user discussed that something on the suspension is wearing out for only several hours of riding, which will be fixed for production models. Can someone elaborate on this? The production models are coming now... has it been fixed?

You will find that it's very difficult to get this kind of information first hand from LeaperKim, you will have to wait until updated models get into hands of resellers who perform teardowns or even longer when riders themselves find out.

[360rumors]

8 hours ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

I was also flipping back and forth between the Sherman-S and V13. The suspension really tempted me, but after learning more about InMotion wheels I realized they just have way more features and better quality. Plus I wanted a bigger/more powerful wheel anyway. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Sherman basher or anything, I had one myself and liked it well enough.

I was choosing between v13 and Sherman s. I chose Sherman S because I need this to be an all around wheel and v13 looks too top heavy to be ridden off-road or in crowded sidewalks. 

[Paul D]

Sherman S seems like it’s more of an all purpose wheel. I was excited about the v13 and maybe I’ll still get one after the Sherman S. 
 

I just did a tire change on my v11, my first wheel, and I could hardly believe how clean it was inside after 2300 miles. So I’m impressed with InMotion at the moment.   Also, I love the tilt back that warns me I’m pushing the wheel to hard. 

[Todd Fahrner]

15 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

To get the 100v wheel spinning at the same top speed you would need more windings in the motor which means higher resistance (more waste heat) if using the same gauge wire. Now as you mentioned, you can use a thicker gauge wire to account for this, but then you have more weight and cost. Furthermore, the amount of amps you have to push through that motor to spin at 80mph and climb a 40 degree incline is far greater than the 134v wheel, which means you will need battery cells that can handle a higher amp load (cost and weight increase) as well as a motherboard with beefier mosfets to handle the current, thicker battery wires, thicker motor wires.

On the first point, it’s the opposite. Fewer, not more windings makes for a faster wheel with greater efficiency, running cooler for a given power level, especially if maximally thick wire is used to pack the laminations. These heavier wires are better able to handle the higher amperage required to offset the torque deficit relative to a higher winding count. Yes, the battery needs to be able to handle higher amp draws to deliver similar torque as higher winding count motors. A large battery like 3600wh is better able to deliver high current than a smaller like the 2400wh used in the 134V Master, assuming same battery tech. Which I don’t, returning to my point that voltage in isolation from other design parameters implies very little about performance. But people like mental shortcuts that higher numbers are better. Why go to 11 when you can just make 10 louder?

I used to spec any of several windings for an electric drive system I patented and sold. The lower the winding count, the faster the motor, but also the higher power rating, meaning that there was “free” extra torque in the fact that the fatter, shorter, lower resistance windings produced less heat, more efficient. This is why, when power:weight is important, electromechanical engineers tend to spec the fastest, lowest-winding motors that they can spin up, and then use gearing to convert some of that speed back into the necessary torque within the allowable amp envelope. With direct drive like EUC, this equates to either selecting the smallest feasible wheel, or just designing everything to handle big amps. 

Yes though, V13 by having both higher voltage AND a similarly large battery (=amp capacity assuming similar battery tech) should handle higher power than Sherman S, all else equal (which it seldom is). 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Todd Fahrner

[MrMonoWheel]

1 hour ago, Todd Fahrner said:

On the first point, it’s the opposite. Fewer, not more windings makes for a faster wheel with greater efficiency, running cooler for a given power level, especially if maximally thick wire is used to pack the laminations. These heavier wires are better able to handle the higher amperage required to offset the torque deficit relative to a higher winding count. Yes, the battery needs to be able to handle higher amp draws to deliver similar torque as higher winding count motors. A large battery like 3600wh is better able to deliver high current than a smaller like the 2400wh used in the 134V Master, assuming same battery tech. Which I don’t, returning to my point that voltage in isolation from other design parameters implies very little about performance. But people like mental shortcuts that higher numbers are better. Why go to 11 when you can just make 10 louder?

I used to spec any of several windings for an electric drive system I patented and sold. The lower the winding count, the faster the motor, but also the higher power rating, meaning that there was “free” extra torque in the fact that the fatter, shorter, lower resistance windings produced less heat, more efficient. This is why, when power:weight is important, electromechanical engineers tend to spec the fastest, lowest-winding motors that they can spin up, and then use gearing to convert some of that speed back into the necessary torque within the allowable amp envelope. With direct drive, this equates to either selecting the smallest feasible wheel, or just designing everything to handle big amps. 

Yes though, V13 by having both higher voltage AND a similarly large battery (=amp capacity assuming similar battery tech) should handle higher power than Sherman S, all else equal (which it seldom is). 

You are absolutely correct. I was quite boozy last night and am surprised I managed to write what I did  Edited original post. I'd still prefer a 126-134v wheel.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[Todd Fahrner]

6 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

You are absolutely correct. I was quite boozy last night and am surprised I managed to write what I did  Edited original post. I'd still prefer a 126-134v wheel.

I don't want to belabor the point, but it may be too late :-) You now say "I'd prefer a higher voltage wheel because at higher speeds you are in a more efficient area of the wheels performance curve. There's definitely a sweet spot regarding speed/amperage/air resistance and I feel as though 126-134 is that point."

Again you conflate higher voltage (126-134) with higher speed, irrespective of motor winding or other factors. I grant that among existing wheels higher voltage correlates cleanly with more power and speed potential vs released lower-voltage models. I'm saying this isn't a causative relationship, such that there's any obstacle to a new lower-voltage wheel (such as Sherman S) outperforming higher voltage wheels, or at least performing as well. As for sweet spots, as I recall these motors tend to be most efficient at around 80% their no-load speed, and most powerful at around 50%. If the power at 80% of no-load is sufficient to overcome air resistance at that speed, that's very efficient indeed, but most wheels aren't powerful enough at that RPM to overcome air resistance, so they bog down somewhere between 50 and 80%, a nice compromise, and the sweet spot of the curve. All else equal, a higher speed motor (fewer turns) has a better chance of producing the power necessary to overcome air resistance toward the 80% mark of its RPM range than a torquier, high-winding motor at a compensatory higher voltage to have a similar no-load speed as the faster motor at lower voltage. This is the high speed cruising case. Where torquier motors at higher voltage may have some advantage over faster at lower voltage, is in, well, torque and efficiency at speeds less than half the unloaded RPM (say accelerating from a stop or up steep slopes), especially if the lower voltage wheel can't get big amps to make up the torque gap at those lower speeds.

If I'm right (and I admit I'm skating out onto the thinnest ice of my knowledge, soliciting correction), maybe it's fair to generalize that higher voltage wheels have some theoretical advantage off-road and in similar lower-speed contexts where torque is paramount, while faster motors at lower voltage are better suited as fast cruisers?

Edited November 14, 2022 by Todd Fahrner

[chanman]

The main obstacle to higher voltage is performance of the FETs, ones that can handle higher voltage without breaking down are some combo of slower/bigger/more expensive/higher resistance/can handle less current.

On the motor side of things it's strictly better, higher speed capability with everything else kept the same.

Edited November 14, 2022 by chanman

[MrMonoWheel]

7 hours ago, Todd Fahrner said:

I don't want to belabor the point, but it may be too late :-) You now say "I'd prefer a higher voltage wheel because at higher speeds you are in a more efficient area of the wheels performance curve. There's definitely a sweet spot regarding speed/amperage/air resistance and I feel as though 126-134 is that point."

Again you conflate higher voltage (126-134) with higher speed, irrespective of motor winding or other factors. I grant that among existing wheels higher voltage correlates cleanly with more power and speed potential vs released lower-voltage models. I'm saying this isn't a causative relationship, such that there's any obstacle to a new lower-voltage wheel (such as Sherman S) outperforming higher voltage wheels, or at least performing as well. As for sweet spots, as I recall these motors tend to be most efficient at around 80% their no-load speed, and most powerful at around 50%. If the power at 80% of no-load is sufficient to overcome air resistance at that speed, that's very efficient indeed, but most wheels aren't powerful enough at that RPM to overcome air resistance, so they bog down somewhere between 50 and 80%, a nice compromise, and the sweet spot of the curve. All else equal, a higher speed motor (fewer turns) has a better chance of producing the power necessary to overcome air resistance toward the 80% mark of its RPM range than a torquier, high-winding motor at a compensatory higher voltage to have a similar no-load speed as the faster motor at lower voltage. This is the high speed cruising case. Where torquier motors at higher voltage may have some advantage over faster at lower voltage, is in, well, torque and efficiency at speeds less than half the unloaded RPM (say accelerating from a stop or up steep slopes), especially if the lower voltage wheel can't get big amps to make up the torque gap at those lower speeds.

If I'm right (and I admit I'm skating out onto the thinnest ice of my knowledge, soliciting correction), maybe it's fair to generalize that higher voltage wheels have some theoretical advantage off-road and in similar lower-speed contexts where torque is paramount, while faster motors at lower voltage are better suited as fast cruisers?

Did a high voltage EUC hurt you at some point? 

Look, honestly I'm not here to debate wheel voltages. In actuality, the current lineup of EUCs tells the story for us. These are the specs I am seeing:

There is a trend here. All the 100.8v wheels are choosing either speed or torque. Its true a lower voltage wheel can be made to push both high speed and high torque, but theres a reason no one is doing it. Hell, maybe you can go do it for us!

Regarding your point of the sweet spot being 50%-80% for power and speed respectively, doesn't that make even more sense to buy a higher voltage wheel? Riding a 55mph wheel at 35-40mph is closer to that sweet spot vs a 100v wheel that maxes out at 45, no?

On average the 100.8v begode wheels have a free spin speed of 14mph over the max riding speed, effectively being your safety margin. Now if we look at the 134v begode wheels, they average a free spin speed of 20.4mph over the (already faster) max riding speed, netting a larger safety margin. From my understanding, this is because the higher voltage allows those wheels to keep supplying ample torque at faster RPMs. The S22 tells a similar story although that wheel is a bit weird. Ive heard conflicting reports on its performance. Then we have the shermans. Again, the average free spin speed comes in  13.5mph over the max riding speed, so a smaller safety margin. Last we have the V13 which honestly is a bit of an anomaly at 126v while claiming to cruise at 55mph with a free spin of almost 87mph, a headroom of 32mph which is nuts. However it does have a 4500w motor and some other fancy stuff like thicker phase wires and a much beefier controller, so I could see how its possible. If anything that is a perfect example of what you are suggesting with lower voltage wheels, inmotion has gone and done it with a 126v!  

We can debate voltages all day. But it seems the fact of the matter is a higher voltage wheel nets more power across the board, with the advantage of being able to carry you into higher speeds with a larger free spin margin before cutout. All of this is the reason I would prefer a higher voltage wheel, not just because the number is larger 

PS: I gathered the data from manufacturer spec sheets but as we have seen, they often aren't... truthful. So if any of this needs changing let me know.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[KiwiMark]

Personally, I think that if someone wants to ride their EUC at over 50mph then they should probably buy a higher voltage wheel, but not all of us are interested in riding at that sort of speed. Riding around a city where the speed limit is mostly 30mph, I'm happy with a wheel that can manage speeds up to 40mph and I doubt that I'll spend much time above 35mph.  I generally don't exceed 35mph on my RS HS, despite it having pretty much the same top speed available as the Sherman S.  I find I can get around the city quickly and easily without exceeding 35mph.

On the flat most cyclists on normal bikes wouldn't exceed 20mph (maybe in a brief sprint, but not sustained), so the EUC is already considerably faster than bicycle, even for the slowest 100V wheel on that list.  Most of those 100V wheels can move at more than double the speed of a fit and healthy cyclist.  If I can zip along at a good pace and get a really good range while doing so then I'm very happy with the speed & performance of what I'm riding.  A stable wheel with good working suspension that feels good to ride and has no trouble hitting 60kph sounds like a winner to me, for my riding needs/wants at least.