Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[KiwiMark]

I like to see a harsher criticism to balance up some that may be too kind and gloss over most of the negatives.  What I'm looking forward to is WW's ride video, I want to see what he thinks of how it rides.  I never feel completely confident with my RS, I've been thrown off by speed wobbles and ever since I've been more careful and moderated my speed, but even at slower speeds it just doesn't feel super stable.  Not to say that I don't go a reasonable speed (30-45kph typically) but I just am not that keen on pushing it up to the 50-60kph range that I ride my Kaabo Mantis Pro at.  I'm hoping with the renowned Sherman stability plus the suspension and even the extra weight, maybe it adds up to a much more stable wheel that feels really comfortable riding around the city at decent speeds.

[DragonFZ]

On 11/5/2022 at 1:45 PM, Unicycle Santa said:

...Now I'm not sure why they didn't make a metal bridge and mount the mud guard to that, but at this point massive redesigns won't be happening. I'm hoping having the two halves joined by the top section won't create an unbalanced rocking force that over time leads to failure, but we will just have to see.

I agree, I was surprised too. But after looking at the wheel as a whole, the bottom suspension mount is the axle and the top mount is the metal case. Have to wait and see.

The issue that concerns me is on the eevee's breakdown video. Out of the little time they rode it, there was wear at the inner plastic case that surrounds the suspension.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, DragonFZ said:

there was wear at the inner plastic case that surrounds the suspension.

In all fairness, it's an assumption that that's wear from riding... it could have been a mod to remove plastic from a preproduction plastic part. Removing plastic from an injection molded part isn't "steel safe" so it's possible that what we're seeing is a first or early shot from the mold.

Could be wear too, but you see all kinds of odd things in pre-prod parts.

("steel safe" refers to the modification to the mold... because the mold is a negative image, in order to get rid of 'plastic' you have to add steel to the mold. It's relatively simple to do additional machining of the mold to remove steel and add plastic, but to 'add' steel you have to weld in new metal then remachine it. That level of refinement happens fairly late in the mold development process—meantime you just cut/saw/file away the plastic you don't want)

Edited November 7, 2022 by Tawpie

[Freeforester]

12 hours ago, dycus said:

In Wrong Way's video I can see that LeaperKim actually has put sealant under the top cover, which is great! Adam says there isn't any but I can see it in the groove of the top cover in that shot. 11:09

I may be wrong in this, but it looks more like a ‘tongue and groove’ type of arrangement, to which sealant could be added, but may not be in the video? The groove shown in the underside of the top board could readily accept some sealant if this was felt necessary, but as things stand the corresponding continuous ridge standing ‘proud’ on the upper surface of the main box should act as a barrier to water ingress, the more so when it is ensconced within this groove. As with the rest - time will tell!

 

edit: having just had another look, I do agree with dycus, in that  there does indeed appear to be some similarly coloured sealant in the groove, and apparently flowed over just above the red of the timeline in the pic above, apologies for casting doubt on this! A belt and braces solution 👏🏻

Edited November 7, 2022 by Freeforester

[RagingGrandpa]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:18 AM, The Brahan Seer said:

3400Wh Battery

It's the same cells, and same number of cells, as most other EUC's labeled 3600wh (SherMax, EX20, MP24, Commander). We should regard it as "the same" because it's truly the same.

(Fair to complain about the label ratings of the EUC vs label ratings of the cells... but 'Vnom 3.7V and round up to nearest 100wh' is the precedent the EUC market has set.)

[KiwiMark]

Just finished watching this:

Looking pretty good IMO.

[BKW]

10 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

Just finished watching this:

Looking pretty good IMO.

Considering what I use it for, I'll never put it to that level of extreme often, so it'll be fine for me.

[techyiam]

Bradley and especially Lukas at EEVEES have no love for Begode wheels.

They openly admit to it in the video. EEVEES may carry the EX30 in the future, starting with 2nd or third batch, maybe?

Bradley really like the Sherman-S, and Lukas seems to still in his honeymoon phase with the S22.

I'm all for Inmotion and Veteran build quality. But Inmotion and Veteran don't have suspension wheels to compete in the S22 / Master class. 

V13 and Sherman-S could be a bit too big a leap for some riders.

It's big shame that Kingsong hasn't been able to learn from its past mistakes. 

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by techyiam

[MrMonoWheel]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Bradley and especially Lukas at EEVEES have no love for Begode wheels.

They openly admit to it in the video. EEVEES may carry the EX30 in the future, starting with 2nd or third batch, maybe?

Bradley really like the Sherman-S, and Lukas seems to still in his honeymoon phase with the S22.

I'm all for Inmotion and Veteran build quality. But Inmotion and Veteran don't have suspension wheels to compete in the S22 / Master class. 

V13 and Sherman-S could be a bit too big a leap for some riders.

It's big shame that Kingsong hasn't been able to learn from its past mistakes. 

 

 

 

To be fair, begode wheels really are rudimentary compared to inmotion/veteran. Yes they give you raw power, but the build quality and QC is just not there. And as far as safety features go, they really dont have any. I dont think a sherman S is a big leap for anyone who already knows how to ride an EUC, its a nice size and can be managed fairly easily. The V13 is definitely taller and heavier so it may be tricky, but even then its kinda like riding a motorcycle or driving a car. Once you learn how to do it, you can pretty much ride/drive any of them as long as you give it a minute to get used to the new wheel.

[Jon Wall]

Good thing so many flavors exist.  Reliability is my highest priority after having had 2 gotway wheels leaving me stranded to make the phone call of shame, from failed controllers miles from paved roads. I'm not looking to repeat that. Now I mostly ride the Sherman Max because it is reliable. No its not a race wheel, or the lightest wheel i own ,but it has my trust. Based on how much enjoyment I get from this Sherman Max is why I pre-ordered the Sherman s. I'm under no illusion it's fast as a master, and that's fine . 2cents

 

[Todd Fahrner]

As somebody who seldom pushes the performance limits of my V11, and is happy with it, I keep challenging myself why this big upgrade is so appealing to me. It's... sexy! Maybe it would inspire me to adventures I can't presently contemplate because V11 range is just not comparable? And my gosh, the Evees pre-order price is really juicy, and I'm close enough that I could drive up to fetch it. Really looking forward to WW's ride review, but chances are fair I will have already put deposit on a 2nd-production...

Magnesium catches fire at under 900° F, and burns hotter than lithium at 4000°F. Interesting choice for a no-BMS lithium battery case. A large battery is both less prone to being stressed toward operational limits that might start a fire, but also worse if a fire does start. Am I confusing elemental magnesium with whatever alloy and finishing process they're using, or just paranoid? I live in a big wooden house with 9 other people who have already survived one catastrophic house fire, kids and pets, and no climate controlled outbuilding charge solution. Nightmare scenario. Perhaps charge adjacent to a fire extinguisher bomb to contain spread: 

 

[Chriull]

11 minutes ago, Todd Fahrner said:

Am I confusing elemental magnesium with whatever alloy and finishing process they're using

Wikipedia list as usage magnesium alloys as it's very light. With al, mn, zn, si,...

Pure Magnesium is used for burning stuff like flares.

[buffs]

14 minutes ago, Todd Fahrner said:

Magnesium catches fire at under 900° F, and burns hotter than lithium at 4000°F. Interesting choice for a no-BMS lithium battery case.

it's not made of magnesium; it's an alloy. huge difference.

[MrMonoWheel]

Yeah as others have noted, the side panels are magnesium alloy which is what a lot of motorcycle engine casings are made of, car wheels, bicycle parts, etc. It's light and strong, and it won't catch fire at 900 degrees 

However the majority of that confusion comes from the poor translation from Chinese to English. It's kinda like how they said the handles were lead for some reason (still have no idea what that was about). 

One thing about magnesium alloy is that it can be as brittle as glass depending on the alloy and casting process, but so far it seems the alloy on the Sherman S is solid as hell. 

[Road Runner]

I think rubber gasket would be more practical

 

 

[MrMonoWheel]

On 11/7/2022 at 3:44 PM, Road Runner said:

I think rubber gasket would be more practical

 

 

I understand the sentiment that a gasket or O ring would be easier, however I am going to have to disagree that its the better choice overall. As someone who comes from working on this kinda thing a lot (as well as cars, motorcycles, etc) I far prefer to use a sealer compound over a gasket. Gaskets have a tendency to get brittle/weak over time to the point that they are not effectively sealing, however you really don't have any way to know this until something goes wrong (leak, water ingress, etc). When using something like Permatex (my usual flavor of sealer) you lay down a nice bead, join the two surfaces together, and after whatever the cure time is you have a watertight seal. Plus if a gasket is ever torn/damaged you need to wait for shipping for a part that probably costs more than it should. A tube of permatex is like 5 bucks and will do multiple applications. 

Again this is just me. And knowing me, if it came with gaskets/o rings I would probably just toss them and use a sealer after my first teardown anyway.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[UPONIT]

On 11/7/2022 at 11:28 AM, techyiam said:

Bradley and especially Lukas at EEVEES have no love for Begode wheels.

They openly admit to it in the video. EEVEES may carry the EX30 in the future, starting with 2nd or third batch, maybe?

Which is strange, because in another video of theirs, they say that Begode wheels have the fewest warranty claims of any manufacturer. Which I had to replay to make sure I hadn't heard wrong...

All of this could be a problem of statistics (which humans are bad at intuitively understanding). Small sample sizes make for unreliable conclusions. I'm not sure whether they did any statistical analysis/adjustment on their sales volume/warranty claim numbers. It's a headscratcher...

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

Which is strange, because in another video of theirs, they say that Begode wheels have the fewest warranty claims of any manufacturer. Which I had to replay to make sure I hadn't heard wrong...

That was near the end of last year before the tsunami of new models from Begode for 2022, which were new from the ground up. The Hero may have been an exception, but that one sold poorly because of its price.

7 minutes ago, UPONIT said:

All of this could be a problem of statistics (which humans are bad at intuitively understanding). Small sample sizes make for unreliable conclusions. I'm not sure whether they did any statistical analysis/adjustment on their sales volume/warranty claim numbers. It's a headscratcher...

EEVEES do take care of their customers, so they would know first hand what they have to put up with.

Who knows, by the end of 2023, the villain could be another manufacturer.

[BKW]

I'm seeing the price around $4500 for some retailers. Something about that number changes my mind about the wheel completely. That's waters I'm not sure I'm want to tread into anymore for an EUC 

Edited November 9, 2022 by BKW

[Jon Wall]

$4150 from Jason at eWheels.  And that is right at my limit for an euc. The sticker shock is real

 

[BKW]

38 minutes ago, Jon Wall said:

$4150 from Jason at eWheels.  And that is right at my limit for an euc. The sticker shock is real

 

Same. I'm not willing to go higher than that. I've bought cars with low mileage for half that price

Edited November 9, 2022 by BKW

[InfiniteWheelie]

Isn't it insane that the suspension is not directly and securely joined above the tire? They even have some kind of plastic bridge there (just for the mud guard?), where the metal clamp should go. Something like the picture below.

The more I see from this wheel, the more problems seem to pop up. The one thing they nailed is the type of suspension used, which should become the standard on all big suspension wheels in my opinion. Other than that, the V13 seems to have it thoroughly beat in every other way. If the V13 used this type of suspension it would be close to perfect.

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by InfiniteWheelie

[MrMonoWheel]

16 minutes ago, InfiniteWheelie said:

Isn't it insane that the suspension is not directly and securely joined above the tire? They even have some kind of plastic bridge there (just for the mud guard?), where the metal clamp should go. Something like the picture below.

The more I see from this wheel, the more problems seem to pop up. The one thing they nailed is the type of suspension used, which should become the standard on all big suspension wheels in my opinion. Other than that, the V13 seems to have it thoroughly beat in every other way. If the V13 used this type of suspension it would be close to perfect.

 

This is exactly what I have been trying to convey, and what we have been discussing in the eevees telegram chat. However it seems many people are unable to visualize the physics behind what's going on to understand why the current setup is an issue. They argue that the suspension is joined by the axle, but that's only half the equation. The two upper units are independent and will be subject to differing forces due to one being rebound and the other being compression, ultimately transmitting a twisting force through the upper section of the wheel where the motherboard is stored. They then argue that the suspension is secured to the battery cases, however this does not change anything as that entire unit (upper suspension and battery case) can just be considered one unit that is connected via 4 bolts to the top section of the wheel. 

So to answer your question, yes. The two upper suspension units should definitely be bridged above the tire/under the motherboard by a solid 1 piece unit such as the one you posted. They even could have made the motherboard and mudguard both mount onto this bridge, making it a very structurally sound wheel. 

Regarding the rest of the wheel, I haven't seen too many other things that stand out as an issue. The wheel only being 100v kinda bothers me for the price being asked, but other than (and the aforementioned suspension design) I think its a pretty solid wheel.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[DragonFZ]

2 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

This is exactly what I have been trying to convey, and what we have been discussing in the eevees telegram chat. However it seems many people are unable to visualize the physics behind what's going on to understand why the current setup is an issue. They argue that the suspension is joined by the axle, but that's only half the equation. The two upper units are independent and will be subject to differing forces due to one being rebound and the other being compression, ultimately transmitting a twisting force through the upper section of the wheel where the motherboard is stored. They then argue that the suspension is secured to the battery cases, however this does not change anything as that entire unit (upper suspension and battery case) can just be considered one unit that is connected via 4 bolts to the top section of the wheel. 

So to answer your question, yes. The two upper suspension units should definitely be bridged above the tire/under the motherboard by a solid 1 piece unit such as the one you posted. They even could have made the motherboard and mudguard both mount onto this bridge, making it a very structurally sound wheel. 

Regarding the rest of the wheel, I haven't seen too many other things that stand out as an issue. The wheel only being 100v kinda bothers me for the price being asked, but other than (and the aforementioned suspension design) I think its a pretty solid wheel.

It just so happen, an EUC rider in our Dallas group was explaining the twisting force of the individual suspension unit (compression and rebound) and that the 4 screws on each side top of case fastened to a sheet metal box (where the controller sits) might not be strong enough.

[Kitty]

You can always make your own gasket to waterproof the battery compartments as well as the control board section. There might be an issue if the tops or lids have a tongue and groove configuration but you could always use a thinner sheet of gasket paper. I would just lay down a full sheet over the opening and fit the lid to it and push in the screws and then tighten them. I would also put a small amount of grease on the wires at the bottom even though it does not appear there is a hazard there. Better to have the grease and know it will repel water than to have a tear in the plastic and have an issue down the line.