Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[RagingGrandpa]

30 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

im curious about the range/efficiency tradeoff as wheels get higher voltage

Fair... 

Established sciences tell us the system is slightly more efficient with a higher input voltage, for the same output power. 
(Because of a reduction in resistive losses, which are a function of current but not voltage.)

The complication for EUC's will be: higher performance limits mean the rider will ride faster/more aggressive, and therefore demand more output power. 

For example, riding an MTen3 is almost always more efficient (in terms of Wh-per-mile) than riding the 134V Master. Because one model stops being fun around 20mph, and the other is fun thru 40mph . A hugely different power requirement.

[BKW]

I don’t plan on buying this first batch of this wheel due to the fact I don’t have the money atm, but also because I’m aware it’s best to wait to see if any complications. This is the first wheel since the Max I’ve seriously considered

[That Guy]

2 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Hey I'm just quoting the eevees guys/Jason. I agree 134v is sweet as hell, but im curious about the range/efficiency tradeoff as wheels get higher voltage.

Guys, guys... "High voltage = High power" is a marketing slogan... Power = Voltage X Current. You can reach the same power by either increasing the voltage or current. Getting higher with the voltage is only supposed to make the solution cheaper, that's all... 

[That Guy]

4 hours ago, buffs said:

The guy at GT King Store (where i ordered my T4) told me he was receiving his first batch of Sherman-S this week. So these initial wheels most likely have been produced BEFORE any feedback from eevees.

I wouldn't be expecting too much from the "production after the feedback from eevees" for two reasons:

a) eevee's feedback is not likely to be very thorough (I do like them, but they are not nerdy enough to tell off to engineers - I'd rather trust feedback from someone grumpy and unhappy like Denis Hagov ), and

b) LeaperKim are likely to be in a full swing of preparation for production already (just based on the ETA's from different dealers and apparent availability of the first batch already in Asia) and their search for feedback is more of a marketing stunt than an engineering exercise.

[MrMonoWheel]

31 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Guys, guys... "High voltage = High power" is a marketing slogan... Power = Voltage X Current. You can reach the same power by either increasing the voltage or current. Getting higher with the voltage is only supposed to make the solution cheaper, that's all... 

In addition, at what point is more power unnecessary? Like I can only torque a wheel so hard, wether its a 3000 watt motor or a 10000 watt motor, I dont think I would be able to draw more than 2500 or so watts. However theres no arguing that drawing 2500 watts from a 3000 watt system will be much more taxing long term vs drawing 2500 watts from a 10kw system.

I wish inmotion would release some more detailed info about the V13, such as exactly how the suspension is setup. If it uses a similar air piston with slider setup as the v11 then thats going to really kill it for me, there are much better option available these days. From the little I have seen, none of the pistons its using seem beefy enough to be structural like a conventional stantion setup, thus leading me to believe there will be a slider system of some sort. Its entirely possible my choice will change back and forth between the two wheels (hence why I still have a standing preorder for the V13 through ewheels). But as it currently stands the sherman S at 3200 is a no brainer (for me in my use case). 

As far as the trolly handle goes, if leaperkim releases a revised metal version down the road, and my plastic one happened to snap off, I'm sure the seller would be able to help me out in some way. Perhaps I just pay shipping.

Edited November 1, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[KiwiMark]

Damn, looking at GT King's pricing, it looks pretty reasonable even if I paid hundreds more for the fast shipping with an estimated arrival time of a couple of weeks from now.  Previous purchases from Aliexpress for my scooter & my RS went well enough, but the long wait was so painful.  I'm so tempted to pay more and have tracking and a new wheel arriving in a couple of weeks.

[MrMonoWheel]

1 minute ago, KiwiMark said:

Damn, looking at GT King's pricing, it looks pretty reasonable even if I paid hundreds more for the fast shipping with an estimated arrival time of a couple of weeks from now.  Previous purchases from Aliexpress for my scooter & my RS went well enough, but the long wait was so painful.  I'm so tempted to pay more and have tracking and a new wheel arriving in a couple of weeks.

You, me, and @techyiam should join hands and take the plunge.

[That Guy]

1 minute ago, KiwiMark said:

Damn, looking at GT King's pricing, it looks pretty reasonable even if I paid hundreds more for the fast shipping with an estimated arrival time of a couple of weeks from now.  Previous purchases from Aliexpress for my scooter & my RS went well enough, but the long wait was so painful.  I'm so tempted to pay more and have tracking and a new wheel arriving in a couple of weeks.

Kevin from Roll.NZ told me just now that he won't be able even to order Sherman-S till the end of November - I understand it's from LeaperKim side. Maybe they are waiting for feedback after all. (Maybe from Kuji?)

1 minute ago, Unicycle Santa said:

You, me, and @techyiam should join hands and take the plunge.

Do it! Do it! Do it! 

[MrMonoWheel]

2 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Kevin from Roll.NZ told me just now that he won't be able even to order Sherman-S till the end of November - I understand it's from LeaperKim side. Maybe they are waiting for feedback after all. (Maybe from Kuji?)

Do it! Do it! Do it! 

Im not sure why the Aliexpress seller said they would be getting their sellable units this week, when major reviewers haven't even recieved their promotional testing units yet. I think its possible GTKing wont be getting their wheels this week and somehow something got messed up in translation (or they are just trying to make the customer happy). Unless they are somehow sneaking into leaperkims factory in the dead of night and smuggling out test units, I'd say whatever we end up getting from GTKing will be the same first batch that major retailers will sell, its just skipping the middleman hence the cheaper price and faster shipping.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Kevin from Roll.NZ told me just now that he won't be able even to order Sherman-S till the end of November - I understand it's from LeaperKim side. Maybe they are waiting for feedback after all. (Maybe from Kuji?)

Thank you for that. I hope they are indeed waiting for feedback, and delay production.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

its just skipping the middleman hence the cheaper price and faster shipping.

What I don't understand is that only GT King Store is selling at that low price at aliexpress.com.

[MrMonoWheel]

Just now, techyiam said:

What I don't understand is that only GT King Store is selling at that low price at aliexpress.com.

Maybe they really are black market test wheels 

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Unicycle Santa said:

Maybe they really are black market test wheels 

I hope not. Can you imagine, that, or getting wheels that have been rejected as first batch. 

[MrMonoWheel]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I hope not. Can you imagine, that, or getting wheels that have been rejected as first batch. 

That sure would be a disappointment, however I highly doubt either are the case. Especially seeing the store feedback I think its a legit source.

[KiwiMark]

Well, the predictable event happened . . . 

I decided to pay the extra for UPS Expedited shipping, I'm kinda doubtful that I'll see the wheel on Nov 15, but maybe it will arrive by the end of the month.  The free shipping gave an estimated date of 9-Jan, I don't know if I could have taken that kind of wait.

[mrelwood]

 

9 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

100v 3600wh should get a shit ton more range than a 126v 3000wh.

I can’t see why there would be a large difference. It’s known that Inmotion and Veteran calculate the total Wh differently (Inmotion: 3.6V, Veteran: 3.7V, * Ah * cells), making the actual Wh difference rather small. And the voltage doesn’t seem to play much part anyway, based on the Master and S22 range reports. I think V13 and ShermS ranges will be pretty close.

3 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

In addition, at what point is more power unnecessary?

This is a great point! For a while now the new EUCs have been targeting super high speed riding, with an amount of power that’s excessive for regular sub 35mph speeds. And the weight inevitably increases the more power you want from the motor.

 

3 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

I wish inmotion would release some more detailed info about the V13, such as exactly how the suspension is setup. If it uses a similar air piston with slider setup as the v11 then thats going to really kill it for me

Based on the introduction event and other marketing material, the V13 suspension is based on the V11 design with notable improvements:

 There is an additional piston on each side for rebound management and control. This makes the sliding rails much wider, which already brings more stability. Based on my discussions with Inmotion, they also plan to set the top sliders higher and possibly make the sliders larger for further stability.

 But whether or not the base air spring is the same as on the V11 is not known.

While I’m very intrigued by the ShermS suspension system, I can’t help but think that there will be issues down the line with a completely new system like that. For example, nobody knows how worn out it will be after 3k miles.

[MrMonoWheel]

15 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

While I’m very intrigued by the ShermS suspension system, I can’t help but think that there will be issues down the line with a completely new system like that. For example, nobody knows how worn out it will be after 3k miles.

I agree with your points, however regarding this one I would assume the suspension shouldn't be worn out very much at all. Being a completely sealed hydraulic system with a coil spring (no air to leak out), this system should outlast most slider/pivot based systems. Furthermore, its not like Veteran/Leaperkim is taking a shot making their own suspension, they outsourced it to a reputable suspension manufacturer. If they were made in house by leaperkim then I would be pretty wary of how its going to hold up.

However, everything I said is riddled with "shoulds" and "ifs", so at the end of the day who really knows what will happen. That being said, heres a freshly posted teardown video of the Sherman S!

 

[dycus]

Some notes from watching the video, with timestamps:

- No gasket or sealing on the top cover, and the flat design makes it look much easier for water to seep in than the old design. Very disappointing, I hope they add a gasket. At least it wouldn't be too difficult to add your own silicone. (1:45)
Edit: It does looks like there's sealant on the top cover!
- The beeper is outside the control board enclosure, mounted on the back of the headlight. Makes it nice and loud, but at the same time susceptible to dirt and water. The location may change (4:34)
- Plastic kickstand (6:00)
- Battery series connection wires run under the pedal hangers, on the bottom of the wheel?? It is covered by the kickstand plastic, but this looks possibly prone to damage. Inspect the kickstand plastic here regularly, especially if offroading (6:32)
- The two battery wire channels on the tops of the battery cases do not have any sealing, but there is silicone where the wire enters the battery compartment. Unclear if there are channels for water to run out, it looks like it could pool in that area (7:50, 9:29)
- Inline (appears to be automotive-type) fuse on the battery positive wire (9:29)
- The main "u-frame" structure (the frame of the sprung mass, where both suspended halves are connected) is made through the control board box by 4 bolts on top of each side of the battery cases. This slightly concerns me because if the wheel is unevenly weighted left-to-right, there is a torque that will want to twist the control box. This feels like a weak point to me, but I'm not sure. Time will tell if it becomes a problem (7:52, 9:39)
- The motor wire flex area is covered by a wire coil, like Kingsong does it (good, IMO). Can't quite tell how the bend radius looks (9:39)
- The reviewers state they think the whole wheel has to come apart for a tire change (12:16), but I think there are actually plastic covers you can remove to get access to the relevant suspension and motor screws (you can see at 7:43, just above the pedals). Would just need to take off the pedals. I think you would have to disconnect the motor cable in the control box as well to get enough slack to drop the motor (13:10). But hopefully you at least don't have to take the whole EUC apart. Eh, actually, seeing the backside at 14:50, I'm not sure you could access all the necessary screws!
- New axle design, 4 screws, very beefy but not really hollow-bore (12:37)
- Bearing looks well-protected (12:37), but at the same time, it's a water trap (19:35). There does appear to be a rudimentary seal (19:52)
- No motor cable junction outside the control box (13:12)
- Some suspension rubbing on the battery case (15:16)
- Motor cable is siliconed where it enters the motor (17:05)
- Close-up of the pedal ratchet mechanism, appears to include a screw to adjust the tension. Great idea, I hope more manufacturers adopt a similar solution (21:20)

Overall, it looks very high quality, sturdy, and well-built! As with every wheel, it will be best to wait a while to see what problems crop up, both in the near and long term. The biggest issues that stand out to me are the tire/tube change (hopefully there's an easier way than it seems), the battery cable under the wheel (they're not exposed, but not super well-protected either), and water ingress protection (still not that good, unfortunately par for the course). Doesn't diminish my excitement for the wheel, but I will be waiting at least 6 months before buying one.

Edited November 7, 2022 by dycus
Corrected a statement

[360rumors]

6 hours ago, That Guy said:

Guys, guys... "High voltage = High power" is a marketing slogan... Power = Voltage X Current. You can reach the same power by either increasing the voltage or current. Getting higher with the voltage is only supposed to make the solution cheaper, that's all... 

To increase the current without increasing the voltage, you'll have to reduce resistance.  Is it easy to further reduce the resistance in an euc?

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, Unicycle Santa said:

I would assume the suspension shouldn't be worn out very much at all. Being a completely sealed hydraulic system with a coil spring (no air to leak out)

Mountain bike front fork shocks like a maintenance window of 50 to 75 hours, mostly because the oil seals get dirty which allows dirt into the system and that can foul the valving. This shock may be superior to the multi-hundred dollar bike shock (yes, tongue is a bit in cheek there), but they are unlikely to be maintenance free. They are load bearing moving parts holding a fluid. 

I ride an hour a day on average...

Edited November 2, 2022 by Tawpie

[MrMonoWheel]

49 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Mountain bike front fork shocks like a maintenance window of 50 to 75 hours, mostly because the oil seals get dirty which allows dirt into the system and that can foul the valving. This shock may be superior to the multi-hundred dollar bike shock (yes, tongue is a bit in cheek there), but they are unlikely to be maintenance free. They are load bearing moving parts holding a fluid. 

I ride an hour a day on average...

Good point. To be fair, I run my mountain bikes hard as hell and have never needed to service the forks aside from airing them up. To me my best comparison would be to a Supermoto/Enduro motorcycle fork, which on my bikes have never needed service in the thousands of hard miles I've put on them. It's only when the seals start leaking that they needed any help.

 

In other news, I asked GTKing Store about their warranty, how issues will be solved, and how cancelling my pre order works. This is their response:

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by Unicycle Santa

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Unicycle Santa said:

In other news, I asked GTKing Store about their warranty, how issues will be solved, and how cancelling my pre order works. This is their response:

Thank you for sharing. Good info.

If they actually honor the 2nd batch offer, that would be incredible.

After watching the teardown, and with the 2nd batch option, I running out of excuses not to pull the trigger.

However, buying from www.aliexpress.com would work better for purchasers who can wrench themselves, or have access to somebody who can.

[MrMonoWheel]

1 minute ago, techyiam said:

Thank you for sharing. Good info.

If they actually honor the 2nd batch offer, that would be incredible.

After watching the teardown, and with the 2nd batch option, I running out of excuses not to pull the trigger.

However, buying from www.aliexpress.com would work better for purchasers who can wrench themselves, or have access to somebody who can.

I work on everything myself from cars to appliances so I guess that's why I didn't think twice about that option. You are right though, for people who aren't adept working on their own stuff it's probably not the safest option. 

If you go for the second batch option that also gives you more time to see what the competition brings before you are locked in.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Unicycle Santa said:

I agree with your points, however regarding this one I would assume the suspension shouldn't be worn out very much at all. Being a completely sealed hydraulic system with a coil spring (no air to leak out), this system should outlast most slider/pivot based systems.

There is still some component that slides against a tube, which has to be either made of PTFE (tends to wear out fast) or constantly wet lubed (requires service often). Or both. More on this below.

 

2 hours ago, 360rumors said:

To increase the current without increasing the voltage, you'll have to reduce resistance.  Is it easy to further reduce the resistance in an euc?

In the controller input or output? I assume output, since that’s what drives the motor. The wire that’s used to make the motor coils can be thinner with more wraps or thicker with less wraps. Which is also the difference between a HS and a HT motor.

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Mountain bike front fork shocks like a maintenance window of 50 to 75 hours

Exactly. And I’m not yet sure if FastAce and LeaperKim have actually calculated the required sideways forces that are in play here. At least they are much higher than what MTB forks commonly work with, since there is no rake, and while accelerating or just keeping a steady fast speed the whole rider’s weight is twisting the wheel against the stanchions. Every bump contains a lot if sideways forces that are not common for a suspension of this style.

I actually think that the original S18 slider system may still have been the best we’ve seen on EUCs. But obviously it would’ve required precision in manufacturing that KS wasn’t able to even nearly reach.

Eevees first impressions video compared the suspension to a S22 suspension, which kind of made me worry. Did they really mean that it’s as stiff and unresponsive? 

[Freeforester]

A more general question regarding Leaperkim’s Sherman models:

Apart from the rim brittleness, overheating motherboard on serious climbs, lower torque and display button failures of the very first original Sherman models (all seemingly addressed some time ago), have there been much by way of serious issues with eg the Sherman Max? Just curious but keen at this stage, but to my mind, Abrams apart, the track record 🤔 of the Sherman models seem to have been one of the least troublesome ones. Assuming they haven’t put profitability above reliability by cheapening out on motherboard components etc (until now there has been no evidence of shortcuts there, and why would they risk problems in their progress toward  ‘reinventing the wheel’ 😁 assuming they are happy with their basic platform?), I’m cautiously optimistic about the S’s success. The main area of debate will likely be the reliability and serviceability/frequency of same of the suspension system, as alluded to above by Mrelwood & Tawpie.

I hear the criticism in some quarters of the trolley handle, and whilst it may not be perfect in terms of material used, it does seem to have a decent locking down mechanism, and moreover I think it’s fair to say that anyone riding at speeds sufficient to break it in an incident is also likely to have to replace the quasi sacrificial front and rear guard handles; given this (and I’m aware too, that this indeed may not be a ‘given’), is it going to be better to replace relatively cheaper or more expensive parts? Nor have we yet factored in aftermarket protection solutions, nor more simple home-designed modifications (eg a little  Velcro affixed on the underside of the handle for additional security)?

Early days still, of course, but it does look promising thus far.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Freeforester