Newbies first day on wheel

[esaj]

All Airwheels are IP56 certified, level 5 dust proof

 

5 Dust protected

Ingress of dust is not entirely prevented, but it must not enter in sufficient quantity to interfere with the satisfactory operation of the equipment; complete protection against contact (dust proof)

 

6 Dust tight

No ingress of dust; complete protection against contact (dust tight)

 

Should be fairly easy to seal it to level 6

That's weird, I'd expect it to be easier to attain level 6 dust protection (dust tight) than level 6 liquid protection ("Water projected in powerful jets (12.5 mm nozzle, at least 3 minutes, 100 liters per minute/100kPa at a distance of 3m) against the enclosure from any direction shall have no harmful effects."). Makes me wonder if they actually mean 65 and not 56. Of course it's better if it really is level 6 liquid protection, as you said, it's probably easy to make it dust tight, I'd expect complete water sealing for higher pressure jets to be a harder feat to do on your own. Not that it really needs to be liquid protected from anything else except splashing water from puddles and rain.

 

 

Got my battery charger yesterday, charged my wheel, wrapped the wheel in Gorilla Tape and cardboard, took off the training wheels, re read all the postings on this thread, hooked the strap to my belt, helmet, gloves, ( oops!, really forgot the gloves, but after a face plant and blood on the road, went back and got them), put on my body armor. 

Did the skateboard shuffle mount over and over, then started out my driveway and up a small hill. My runs went as follows;

10 feet,10 feet,15 feet,20 ', 30', 10', 10', 50', 100', 150', next thing you know I am gone!!! circled the block!! Recharged the battery. rode 2 miles! It's just like everyone says, keep at it, it will click, and when it does it just does. making more than half of my turnarounds.

I did more than my share of unintentional dismounts, but only 4 or 5 uncontested down right falls, ( my 62 year old body is very sore this morning). Down hill is much harder than uphill,  am learning to shuffle feet underway to adjust for up or down steep hills.

All and all, I am confident I am going to be a decent rider eventually, and I have so much to credit to this thread!  Today will be my third charge, I expect to be very sore tomorrow, my goal for today is a three mile ride.

Esaj, Thank you so much for starting this thread and all your comments, as well as a thank you to All who contributed. Now I need a T shirt with hobby 16's logo on it!! LOVE MY WHEEL!!!

 

Good to hear! Glad you're having fun with your wheel.    Also good idea to wear protection, even if (at least later on) you're confident with your own skills, you never know what might happen (wheel turns off suddenly, someone gets in front of you unexpectedly or even crashes you with a bicycle, car or something, in the worst case from behind, before you even realize anything's going to happen).

 

Do you find the skateboard-kick -start to be easier way of mounting than "stepping on from place" and getting going? For me it's the other way around (I can't seem to ever plant my kicking feet correctly when trying to kick for speed and get mounted ).

 

The start sounds similar to mine, at first slowly getting farther and farther at a time, and suddenly you can just ride it (although in my case it was just straight lines and very large diameter turns for the first day). I think everything gets easier over time, it just takes practice. Personally I didn't find going downhill very hard, just control the braking and don't let the wheel gain too much speed. Might be better to learn with less steep hills first, of course

 

 

I'm seeing some improvement I'm happy with. I can turn in fairly tight spaces without problem and drive straight at crawl speed for pretty much as long as I want. Mountings are pretty much on the first go (but still not always). Today when I went for a ride, I could ride kilometer after kilometer with no need to stop to get my feet in better position, slowing to crawl and sometimes even stopping (but not dismounting) for a while at intersections to see that there's no cars or other people coming, circling pedestrian, dog walkers etc. This on hard surfaces. During about 7km ride, I stopped once to chat with a neighbour.

 

After that, going a bit "offroadish" for some kilometers, the wheel slid on a small muddy spot, so I had to jump off, and another time after dropping into a hole after a small bump (didn't see the hole beforehand, but just stepped off when I felt the wheel drop & get stuck) at a near by sports field. Other than that, everything went pretty smoothly.

 

I'll probably start trying going backwards next this weekend. Hobby16 had a good point about using the strap again when learning that. My backyard is far too bumpy for it (rode around it today, and it's very uneven, you just don't notice it as much when walking on the lawn), so need to find some other place. Balance-wise, it would probably be easier on hard, even & level surface, but landing on my ass on asphalt doesn't sound like something I wanna do, so gotta figure something out...

 

 

Edit: went for another 10km ride, left around 10pm and got back around an hour later. After about 8km, the battery-indicator was still showing 3 leds, but after about 9km, it dropped to 2 leds. During the final climb back, I noticed the wheel felt more "sluggish", and chose to rode up pretty slowly, in case it would cut out. This is the first time I've really noticed that the wheel starts to lose power. When I stopped in front of my house, the indicator was showing 1 led. Maybe it was due to the lower temperature (around +5 Celcius and chilly winds), since this time I was riding just paved streets, but on one of my trips before I got between 11 and 12km riding on more demanding terrain and didn't notice anything during the last climb. Of course it could also be because I was (probably) driving faster on average than on the other long trip.

[esaj]

Some status update about my progress & other things... I rode over 50km in the weekend (saturday & sunday), mostly just cruising. So in total I've gone way past 100km already, riding 0.5-4 hours a day since the beginning, I've lost count since the first days.

 

Yesterday I went to visit a relative, a little less than 8km ride, but there's a part in the trip where the road has a rise of 64 meters over a stretch of 2.2km, was a bit worried how the battery would handle it. It isn't that steep rise (for the most part), but it's long and inclining all the way. In the end, it turned out to be no problem, the wheel handled it well and was still showing 3 leds at the top (about 6km in total of the way). The temperature was higher (about +10 celsius, slight rain part of the way, it's been raining daily since I got the wheel...) than when I almost run the battery out on a 10km trip (+5 celsius and heavy winds), so the ambient temperature definitely matters with battery.

 

Also, I did some backwards riding practice during the weekend. I go to a small parking lot near a beach, as it's the only "pretty much level" asphalted place within a short distance, and the asphalt's in a fair condition (minor cracks, but nothing big). At first on saturday, I tried by taking support from a structure next to the lot, starting to go backwards from standstill, but after about half an hour made little to no progress and gave up (the wheel would start turning immediately as I started going backwards). Later on I came back and tried the same again, to no avail. The asphalts' a bit inclined next to the building, so that might be a factor.

 

Later on, I watched a video from the speedyfeet -guy where he shows how to do it:

 

 

Edit: After thinking about this for a little longer, I thought some notes/disclaimer might be good:

-When I say "kick the wheel in front of you", I don't mean a literal, strong kick, but rather that my knees are a bit bent, I lean back and straighten them out to push the wheel in front of me.

-Taking into account your weight and speed, you have two forces acting on the wheel when doing this: gravity and forward momentum. If you're a heavy weight rider, and/or traveling at fast speed, the forces acting on the wheel can be quite high. You're at the same time sort of pushing the wheel forward with your momentum and asking it to start running backwards by tilting it backwards. There's a risk that the friction between the wheel and the ground is not enough, and the wheel skids forward (ie. it loses grip), and you sort of kick it out from under you. Also, if the battery is low, or you have an over-sensitive BMS over discharge-protection, the wheel might cut out. Crash pants and back armor might be a good idea, or in lack of better equipment, some pillows taped to your back and butt     YMMV.

 

So, I went out to the turning spot in front of the house and practiced there. At first, I didn't manage to do it, usually just coming to a standstill (ie. doing fast breaking by pushing the wheel in front of me while tilting it backwards), as I was afraid to keep leaning backwards. After a while, I rode to the next street with similar turning spot, that's a little bit more level (ours is somewhat inclined, making it a bit harder). After maybe 10-20 minutes, I gained more confidence and learned that the move needs to be fairly fast (ie. go slow forwards, then at the same time, lean very slightly backwards, kick the wheel in front of you, then keeping your legs a bit stiff and, if need be, tilt back with your ankles a bit so you get more acceleration backwards, so the wheel is standstill for only a very miniscule time before it starts moving backwards, then regain more "upright" position as the wheel moves under you). I did have to dismount many times when practicing this, but never fell (luckily, I haven't had a fall since the 3rd day crash on video).

 

Yesterday, I also practiced this again in the beach parking lot (without using the support of the structure), and at best, managed to ride maybe 2 meters backwards. Usually the wheel starts to tilt sideways, and I either have to give up and dismount with one leg (the other holding the wheel in place), or start going forwards again to regain my balance. It seems balancing when going backwards in my case is a lot, lot harder than when going forwards. Just need to put some extra effort into practicing. Probably I'm still not leaning backwards enough after the wheel returns under me, and going slowly backwards is really hard.

 

In other news, today it's, less surprisingly, raining again. And harder than before. And it's going to last late into the night. So no wheeling today, but instead I decided this would be the perfect time to take a look at the internals and see if they need more waterproofing or have some other issues. Here's the picture of the actual wheel I ride (I had to use a crappy tablet camera, since I broke my pocket camera on the 3rd day ). That's reflector-tape on the sides, the colors come a bit weird on the camera, it actually reflects yellowish color. I've also got some on the front- and backside of the pedals and on the sides of the main board- & battery-casings, with the colors defined by law for bicycles (red to back, orange/yellow on back and front of pedals & sides, white to front):

 

 

It turned out that the electronics are accessed from the outside under the rubber pads, so no need to dismantle the entire casing (for which I'd had to tear of the padding that's glued to the midline going around the wheel). If they've saved somewhere when building these, it at least ISN'T the glue used on the red rubber pads. At times it felt my finger nails would come off before the pad. Finally, I managed to locate and unscrew all the six screws holding the plastic under the rubber pad in place:

 

 

Sorry about the glare from the heat sink, the lighting was not that optimal for taking pictures. But, the good news is, they've actually caulked the switches, leds and the charging port (on the other side). However, for some reason they've left a crudely cut hole on the bottom of the compartment on both sides, luckily only a few grains of sand (the amount you hold on your fingertip) had got in (left: main board compartment, right battery compartment):

 

 

Only reason I could figure for the hole on the battery-side is that they could put them together either way. Or maybe they just cut the wrong side first  The holes aren't that big, around 1x1 cm. I quickly vacuumed through them (not that there was much any sand, but just in case), checked the capacitors on the main board (no bulges, the circuit board looks brand new). And then I checked the battery:

 

 

But, but... it was supposed to be 210Wh! I asked vee73 about it, and he said he'd never opened it (and considering the pain I had to go through to open the damn thing, I'm pretty sure he didn't ), and apparently it was sold to him as a 210Wh wheel. Oh well, not that biggie (40Wh difference, what's that, 3.5km max? ), after all I wanted a learning wheel FAST, and he delivered. I poked around the internet based on the numbers, and I think the battery is this (or at least similar): http://www.elitop.net/en/proView.asp?id0=4&id1=478&id=517 Didn't cut the shrink wrap open to check the cell manufacturers or their specs, might do that later, if I find the need to shunt the overdischarge-protection on the BMS (haven't had any cutouts yet).

 

So, the main thing was to cover the holes. I cleaned the surrounding with acetone, put small pieces of duct tape to cover them and to prevent the silicone from ending up inside the wheel casing, then put silicone on top of it. As I had used the silicone tube before replacing seams in the bathroom & toilet, I poked the nozzle a bit with a screw driver to get it open, then started pumping with the pistol. But of course, the front end of the tube had dried from too far, and the silicone ended up coming out from the back of the tube. Made some mess, but I finally got the silicone in place using a stick and my finger (not that thick layer, but considering how little dirt had got in before, I think it should hold enough... or then just get a new tube & redo it). This picture also shows the main board -side a bit clearer, I think the "X5"-sticker might mean this is an Airwheel X5 clone?

 

 

And the battery compartment:

 

For now I've left it open to dry until tomorrow.

 

Edit: fixed some typos

[esaj]

Haven't updated here for a while, since nothing that worthwhile happened over the week, and my mom & sister were visiting at my house over the weekend, so didn't have that much time to ride or post here. I've been practicing some curb jumping and more backwards riding (still can't get very far at one go, but I'm getting better at staying up in slower speeds backwards, as well as changing the direction back to front), but mostly just riding the hiking paths and doing some longer paved routes. Over the weekend, the weather got a bit warmer (10-15 celsius), and I've been able to do over 10km routes without the battery dropping to one led. I'd expect around 15km to be the max in optimal temperatures (20-30 celsius) for the 170Wh batteries.

I finally ordered a pair of wrist guards early this week after reading the thread about wrist injuries. Seeing myself in cast or having screws in my hand for the summer didn't seem like a nice idea. I was going to skimp a bit and go with cheaper ones (Triple-8 Roller Derbies), but after reading reviews, some people said they weren't very comfortable, so I ended up ordering Flexmeter (apparently also known as Docmeter) double-sided "Plus" wrist guards, which were almost twice as expensive with shipping:  http://gearcheck.fi/en/wrist-guards/155-flexmeter-wrist-guard-double-sided.html  Apparently they're originally meant for snowboarding, but the Plus-version has extra skid plates for palms, and suits skateboarding, rollerblading and, of course, riding an EUC. They're longer than your usual wrist guards, coming at about halfway my forearm, just below the elbow/forearm pads, and are very good at preventing your wrist from twisting (you have some movement, but not much). After a few days of using them, I've found them very good and comfortable (as long as you don't put the velcros way too tight, I found that you can actually prevent your blood circulation with them ). Only problem so far has been that when it's colder, I don't have any big enough gloves to fit over them due to the large skid plate and backhand plate, but I probably could fit smaller thin gloves under them (the skid plate is removable, but I'd prefer to keep it on when riding). Or just buy bigger gloves, might not be needed though, as it seems it's finally becoming warmer. Here's a couple of videos of the guards:

 

 

 

 

From my experience so far (which, granted, is only a few days), I can recommend these for anyone looking for a solid pair of wrist guards.

Also had use for the wrist guards pretty soon, as I had my third fall on friday-night, my own fault . I was riding uphill in the longer hiking path routes I've lately used for practicing, near the speed limit (the speed alarm was beeping all the way). Just before I reached the top and the incline started to become less-steep, I was already leaning forward a bit too much because of the tilted pedals, so entering the less-steep part, I ended up accelerating just a little bit, and managed to hit the top speed. Of course the wheel shut down that instant, and I found out it's not that easy to start running sandy and rocky gravel uphill at around 15-16km/h from standing position, and ended up falling after a step or two    Nothing major though, came down hands and knees first, the pads & wrist guard skid plates took the worst hit, I just got up, wiped the dust and sand from my jacket and pads, and continued onward.

Talking about speed, over this week I've become increasingly annoyed at the low top speed of my current wheel (of course it was bound to happen). Especially on large empty straights, it really feels slow. Even more today, because after my fall I've been wary of pushing the wheel more after the speed alarm starts around 12km/h (earlier I rode with "just a little bit more"-attitude pushing the limits all the time on straights, but never had a shutdown before ). Hopefully I'll get my Ninebot next week, I've planned on contacting the reseller tomorrow or tuesday, and if there's more delay, I'm starting to lean towards ordering a 18" Gotway MSpeed... Not sure if I want the "high speed version", as I'd expect around 30km/h to be the comfort zone (it's what I usually ride with my bike), not too slow and not too fast on longer straights, so the "balanced/medium"-model with a little bit of extra torque/acceleration vs. the high speed could be good compromise. Plus the law-draft about EUCs says that the top speed shouldn't be above 25km/h, but considering you can't actually ride at the top speed (due to shutdown), I'd prefer to leave some "space" between the two maxes (high torque-model with 28km/h max might be pushing it a bit too close). Not that EUCs are actually yet legal here anyway, but just hoping it would be (or at least appear) street-legal according to the regulations from the day the law is enforced. 

 

[esaj]

I e-mailed the dealer this morning about the Ninebot delivery, but haven't heard back from them yet   I do hope it doesn't mean that the shipment has been delayed (it's a domestic web store, so I'm not worried about losing my money, the consumer protection here is really good). If I get a reply telling it's going to be several more weeks or don't hear back from them in a couple of days, I'll likely cancel the order and get a Ninebot One E+ or Gotway from abroad.

Also had my first scare that my current wheel was broken. After I returned from my usual hiking trail + practicing backwards riding -trip, I put the wheel to charge. Maybe 5-10 minutes later, I heard the fan of the charger turn off, which should happen only after the battery is fully charged. Looking at the charger, it was showing the green light, as if it was fully charged, but I knew it shouldn't be done until maybe 40-50 minutes later. I tried unplugging the charger and then plug it back. Still showing green. Same if I unplugged it from the wheel (I usually plug the wheel-end first, and then put the charger on the wall outlet, doing it backwards when detaching the charger, ie. wall first, then wheel-end). I cursed that I don't own even a basic multimeter for checking voltages and such. The charger looked all right, no smoke coming out of anywhere etc  The wheel would turn on and show 2 leds, so at least it could still get power from the battery, and the battery was not full.

So, I opened up the battery compartment. The battery didn't seem to have moved (although there's only a small piece of plastic foam or whatever it's called holding it in place). No bulging in the battery or feeling warm or anything. Then I thought it's probably just a mechanical problem. I plugged the charger back in, and started poking the wires (with one hand, mind you, if I get zapped, I don't want the current to pass through my heart). Not the plastic connector between the charging port and the battery. Nothing when I tapped a bit the wires going into the battery. Then I poked the wires that go into the charging port from the connector. The charger led turned to red and the fan started running. Bingo, just a simple bad connection that had finally failed. After removing the glue/silicone/whatever around the wires, and pulling just a little bit, the entire wire came off from the port.

Even though I don't own a multimeter, I do own a soldering iron and wire stripping pliers. After unplugging the charger from the wall and getting the tools, 5 minutes later I had stripped the broken wire, soldered it back into the metal lip of the charging port and covered it with electrical tape. Crisis averted! 

 

[EUC Extreme]

Good that the bug was easy.

 

[esaj]

So, I finally got the word last friday that the Ninebot -shipment was stuck in customs. Hopefully the retailer will get them to their warehouse this week, and then ship one to me asap. In the mean time, seeing that vee73 was selling his used Firewheel F260, I went and bought it off him    Yeah, I guess have enough wheels now for this summer...  Vee had already replaced the shells, caulked the insides and shunted the over discharge protection from the BMS.

The Firewheel arrived today, picked it up around 17:30, but then still managed to contain myself to do some other stuff that needed to be done, and to tape the rubber/foam plastic/whatever -sheets on it (well, still need to add a couple of those). I wanted to protect the shell from hits (it's actually new shell, vee sent me the old shell also, and it has really taken a beating ;D), but at the same time I didn't want to spoil the good looks of the wheel. So after turning it around a bit, I got some ideas.

ABOVE: Firewheel on the floor on top of the styrofoam box, vee's old shell on the right

As Firewheels are notorious for requiring maintenance, I didn't want to make it too difficult to open the shell if I have to. So, every piece of foam that goes to the centerline of the wheel (where the shell seams are) was cut in half, then I used the cut pieces to place the two-sided tape so that the pieces would stay firmly in place. Also, I avoided covering any screw-holes. The end result is that I have a wheel that can take some hits, and open up the shell without having to remove a single piece of foam. Here are some pictures of the project:

Didn't quite get it done (need another "arc" on the sides towards the back, and add the reflector tapes to make it abide the bicycle law, and to make it more visible in general in low-light conditions), but I thought it was enough for now, time to takes this wheel out into the streets.

I put on my full gear, as usual (helmet, pads, wrist guards), choose to ride with sneakers instead of hiking boots and set out. I placed the wheel on the ground in front of me, and pushed the power button.

"Welcome to use Firewheel, Sports Mode"

I was a bit worried if I could mount it on the first go, and thought I might need the strap to prevent it from falling if I fail, but didn't get it anyway. First mount, no problems. I started rolling slowly forwards. Then it hit me. OOOH... such comfort. The pedals are so much more better than on the 14" generic (anyone who's ridden a wheel with the short pedals and a gap in the middle knows what I'm talking about). I turned around a bit at the end of the street, riding slowly around. Such stability. Even at low speed, no problems whatsoever.

Then headed up the street. My feet were shaking a bit, I was nervous. This was the first time on any other wheel than the generic, and I didn't have any experience with its capabilities or quirks. The wheel rolled on smoothly, usually I feel the little cracks and bumps in the asphalt, but not with Firewheel. Rolling over those, nothing. I went over the speed bump, turned to another street and accelerated a bit going up. Did a wide turn at the end and went back. No problem with the turning. Even steep turns at slow speeds are easy to make, even though I expected it to be harder with heavier wheel. I tested the acceleration (not real fast acceleration though, have to get more used to the wheel before I dare really to try and take it to the limits), and it's smooth. You reach the first warning sound without even noticing you're going that fast (18km/h or so).

After a while, I decided I had gotten enough "feel" of the wheel and headed out. In total, I made a 14km trip after the initial testing near my home. Mostly I just rode on paved streets, with maybe a total of less than kilometer on dirt roads. I had to put my foot to ground one single time in the entire trip (went over a high curb and didn't get it clean). I got a bit paranoid about the battery towards the end, as the battery-reading bounces up and down depending on your accelerating & breaking, and was showing values between 10% and 60%. When I got back home and stopped in front of the house, the reading showed 40% when the wheel was stationary.

It's like everyone's been saying, the Firewheel is a pleasure to ride. The stability, comfortability of the pedals, fast acceleration (I'm sure it can accelerate a lot faster too, just didn't dare to try it) and high top speed (well, not Gotway/Rockwheel high, but high ;)) make it really enjoyable.

After about half of my journey I was constantly riding above the first warning sound speed. At one time on a long empty straight, I heard the dreaded "take care, take care", and stopped pushing the speed higher (don't know how high it needs to be for this warning, 25+km/h?).

I think the torque is not that high, at least it felt it accelerated a tad slow when going up hill (might also be that I just wasn't leaning forward enough, have to test it further once I get more kms and more experience with this wheel). Or maybe I was just so intoxicated by the speed and acceleration, that any loss of it was unacceptable to my mind at that point  

The slim shell felt a bit weird at times, just because I'm used to the bulk of the 14". After the start, for most of the time I rode pretty relaxed (despite of high speed), without my legs touching the shell from any point.

Any way, I can't really make any review or such of this wheel, as this was my very first experience with it. So far, I really, really like it, and doubt I will be riding my 14" much after this. And I hope I'll be riding the Firewheel more than maintaining it, but you never know... I mean to do an Ninebot vs. Firewheel -review later, but that's probably weeks away, as I need to test both a lot before I can form any better opinion (or especially try to be really objective about them).

[hobby16]

After about half of my journey I was constantly riding above the first warning sound speed. At one time on a long empty straight, I heard the dreaded "take care, take care", and stopped pushing the speed higher (don't know how high it needs to be for this warning, 25+km/h?).

I think the torque is not that high, at least it felt it accelerated a tad slow when going up hill (might also be that I just wasn't leaning forward enough, have to test it further once I get more kms and more experience with this wheel). Or maybe I was just so intoxicated by the speed and acceleration, that any loss of it was unacceptable to my mind at that point  

.

​thank you esaj for your always detailed and diligent reports. I see you enjoy the FW, as expected.

The "take care, take care" message is at around 28km/h, seconds before the huge acceleration.

What's strange is that the FW does not accelerate swiftly indeed, but it's nonetheless quite "torquy", climbing at high speed very steep roads where I can't even dream to ride with the X3 clone. I've just ordered a Gotway 14" 340 Wh, arriving probably next week. I'll compare the two beasts to see if this contradictory behavior is because of lack of torque or just by software design.

[dmethvin]

Great review! I'm sure the people who see our stories of crazy fixes and repairs for the Firewheel are wondering why we put up with it. But when you get on it and ride, the Firewheel is a beautiful thing. It's a combination of factors: big comfortable pedals, flat-pedal riding position, higher top speed, stability of a 16-inch wheel, comfortable side pads, better-than-expected battery range, etc. The lights are a nice addition but I would love this wheel even without them.

[SerpentineGX]

Thanks for the good reading. Looks like the EUC bug bit you good.  Congrats on getting the Firewheel. I'm sure you'll have loads of fun riding it.  

[MarkoMarjamaa]

Put Kraftwerk's Autobahn as background music and see me chilling with Airwheel X5

 

[esaj]

@MarkoMarjamaa: Nice riding, I've been doing that slaloming between streetlight poles also. Are you planning on upgrading or are you happy with the X5?

I went to a 15km ride on the Firewheel, a bit chilly and strong winds (it's been raining all day, just cleared up a bit towards the evening). Not that good weather to ride, but I had fun. The battery indicator showed 30% when I got back, but my trip included lots more of inclines and declines than yesterday.

I think the torque is not that high, at least it felt it accelerated a tad slow when going up hill

Scratch that, today I had no problem accelerating uphill, just need to lean a bit more forwards. I could get it up to the first warnings going up hill with no problem. Used the hiking boots today, I think they're even more comfortable with the pedals. Next thing I need to do is practice more on braking with the Firewheel, I think I'm a bit too wary on leaning further back with it for fast braking, as the sport-mode keeps the pedals horizontal at all times, even leaning back (used to the 14" where the pedals actually tilt back a bit when you lean backwards). Same goes with the accelerating. Haven't tried the comfort-mode yet, been just driving on the sport mode, maybe I I'll try the comfort-mode tomorrow to see if it's more similar to the way the 14" handles (but in the long run, I think I'm going to ride on the sports-mode at least most, if not all the time, just need to get more used it).

One thing I'd like the Firewheel could have is, surprisingly, tilt back. The "take care, take care"-warning is pretty quiet, and with wind making sound inside the helmet, it can be hard to hear, so it would be nice to have at least a little tilt back or some other warning you can feel, not hear, when you're getting near the max speed. Still haven't dared to push it all the way to the limits (28km/h or more?).

I might take the bike computer from my bike and try to set it up with the Firewheel to get some measurements.

[MarkoMarjamaa]

@MarkoMarjamaa: Nice riding, I've been doing that slaloming between streetlight poles also. Are you planning on upgrading or are you happy with the X5?

I went to a 15km ride on the Firewheel, a bit chilly and strong winds (it's been raining all day, just cleared up a bit towards the evening). Not that good weather to ride, but I had fun. The battery indicator showed 30% when I got back, but my trip included lots more of inclines and declines than yesterday.

​No need to upgrade yet. Maybe when they get the legislation ready and maybe then buy something that goes 25km/h. These things evolve quickly and don't yet know what is their actual lifespan. But I do like the design of Ninebot and I guess there will be many new models by autumn.

There are some hills around that X5 can't climb, don't know the degrees but steep enough that I could not zig-zag up. Too steep that I could make a turn.

It's funny how obstacles that seemed difficult earlier are now nothing anymore.

Nice day today for a ride in Espoo sea side in 17m/s winds

[esaj]

​No need to upgrade yet. Maybe when they get the legislation ready and maybe then buy something that goes 25km/h. These things evolve quickly and don't yet know what is their actual lifespan. But I do like the design of Ninebot and I guess there will be many new models by autumn.

​True, hopefully the quality also goes up in the process (although at least Ninebot, IPS and Gotway seem high quality already). In a couple of years our current wheels will probably seem like cars from the early 20th century seem today  

[dmethvin]

Next thing I need to do is practice more on braking with the Firewheel, I think I'm a bit too wary on leaning further back with it for fast braking, as the sport-mode keeps the pedals horizontal at all times, even leaning back (used to the 14" where the pedals actually tilt back a bit when you lean backwards). Same goes with the accelerating. Haven't tried the comfort-mode yet, been just driving on the sport mode, maybe I I'll try the comfort-mode tomorrow to see if it's more similar to the way the 14" handles (but in the long run, I think I'm going to ride on the sports-mode at least most, if not all the time, just need to get more used it).

I was the same with braking at first, I wasn't leaning back enough and thought the torque was lower than it was. I've gone down steep bike ramps since then with no problems. I tried comfort mode for some early riding but switched to sport because it seemed to feel more responsive like my 14 inch wheel. I may try comfort mode again just for the heck of it though.

One thing I'd like the Firewheel could have is, surprisingly, tilt back. The "take care, take care"-warning is pretty quiet, and with wind making sound inside the helmet, it can be hard to hear, so it would be nice to have at least a little tilt back or some other warning you can feel, not hear, when you're getting near the max speed. Still haven't dared to push it all the way to the limits (28km/h or more?). 

Yeah, I like the flat pedals but agree that if you're near traffic it might be easy to not year all the warnings. Where I ride in noisy areas I don't have the opportunity to go that fast because of obstacles and pedestrians. 

[esaj]

Here are the pictures after I finished the padding on the wheel, and yeah, it doesn't look as cool as without them, but came out alright in my opinion (still missing the reflector tapes, I'll add them tomorrow):

 

I tried the comfort-mode for a very short time tonight. I recall vee73 saying in some topic that he didn't feel much difference between sport- and comfort-mode, but I did. It's way more "softer" than sports, meaning that the pedals tilt when you lean forwards or backwards, and the wheel feels a bit more sluggish (ie. it's responding slower to your leaning). Did a couple of circles with it, nice for slow riding, but I wouldn't want to ride fast with it. Maybe a combination of softer when braking harder and hard when leaning forwards could be a good combination.

I turned the sport-mode back on and headed out. I had planned a longer route for tonight, that takes me around one of the large lakes around here. There's an asphalted bike lane going all around the lake, 12.8km in length. Only problem is, that I have to ride around 5km from home before I reach it, so doing the full circle would require a range of about 23km. As a backup, I could take a short cut from one part of the route back home over some high and long hills, but it would cut a lot off the route.

The start of the ride went well, I wasn't riding near the top speeds, but had the first warning going on most of the time, so around 20km/h. It had rained all evening, and it was a bit chilly with the temperature around 9 celsius and some wind, that made it feel more like 5 celsius. This time I had thin gloves under the wrist guards so my fingers wouldn't start feeling like freezing in the middle of trip and was wearing long johns and a wool shirt under my jacket.

Once I got to the bike lane going around the lake and came to the first opening, I started to feel the wind blowing from the lake. Didn't feel cold though, thanks to all the clothes I was wearing. The route is really nice, with small hills and bridges, zigzagging around the lake shore and great scenery across the lake. Due to cold weather and the time (I left around 9:40pm), there wasn't much pedestrian or bike traffic, for the first half of the trip I saw less than 10 people on the road in total over a 7km stretch. I didn't ride that fast all the time, but did try some bit faster accelerations and riding near the top speed, but the head winds made it hard and I couldn't hear even the normal buzzing that is the first speed alarm, let alone the voice warnings. Still the stability of the wheel at high speeds continues to amaze me a bit, even with the sudden wind changes, I had no problem keeping it under control even at high speeds that were probably near the maximum. The battery indicator was showing values between 40-60% after around 10km when going forward at steady(ish) speed.

Coming nearer to the town centre, there were more people in the marina, so I slowed down and zig-zagged through the small crowds. Heard some "what the fuck is that"-comments and felt most of the people staring at me, but I didn't want to stop right now to explain it to them. Plus some of them were drunk  At this point I had ridden about 12.5km of my route, so over half done. I didn't check the battery indicator, as it would be dangerous with people around (it's not something you just quickly glance over, the indicator is small and changes the values all the time due to varying voltage, so you have to keep looking at it for a few seconds to get the range within which it's bouncing around). Btw, does anyone know what the number in the lowest part of the display is? I haven't checked it a lot, but it feels like it's always saying "1". Maybe it's 1 for sport-mode and 0 for comfort or something?

Coming out from the marina and starting to going away from the town center, there were again far less people. Going through university campus on the shore, and coming to a longer straight at the other end of the lake, I checked the battery indicator again. It was showing values below 10% when going straight at faster speed, rebounding to 30-50% when slowing down. I was unsure if the battery could take me the rest of the way, and this was the point where I could take the short cut, so I opted for that. While a few kilometers shorter, there's lot of climbing involved to get over the hills. Going up the first, short but somewhat steep hill, the battery indicator hit 0% and stayed there. At first I thought the wheel was going to stall, but then realized it was just me myself, being cautious on leaning forwards in case the wheel would shut down. Then I tried leaning forwards. The wheel started accelerating uphill and the indicator still read 0%. After getting on top, I stopped for the first time on the entire trip to get a reading when the wheel was stationary. The indicator jumped back to 33%. 

Relieved, I thought if I should go back and try to ride the rest of the route, but then decided it would be better to head home, it would be very late if I started going away from home again and ended up carrying the wheel back for something like 5km. So I continued on my short cut -route, going up a couple of more not as steep, but long climbs. The battery indicator was showing 0% on the climbs all the time, yet the wheel could accelerate pretty easily even uphill. After getting on top, there's some downhill, and when going down it, the indicator was showing over 40% at times.

Nearer to home, about 2km away, I wasn't as worried about the battery running out anymore and tested some accelerating (yeah, it could still easily accelerate to high speeds), but was wondering if riding like this could cause a "too" deep discharge and damage the batteries or cause them to lose charge capacity. Stopping at the front of my house, I set the wheel stationary and checked the final reading. 22%. I measured the route from the public survey maps with the in-built tools and it came to a total of 18km. So, maybe I could have ridden the entire route without running out of battery, but not sure.

Now, while I'm glad the battery seemed to do ok with this long trip, I am a bit worried if deeply discharging it could really cause trouble in the longer run (even when the indicator shows 22% at stand still, the voltage must be getting low for it to hit 0% constantly on uphills and during acceleration). Does anyone know? @hobby16? @vee73? You guys seem to know a lot about batteries and electronics in general. I'm seriously considering if I should just cancel the forever-taking Ninebot-order and spend the money on bigger Firewheel-batteries instead. I'd really like to take longer runs on the Firewheel without losing power and worrying about battery capacity.

Also, if I decide to go with upgrading the batteries, should I order the original ones (F528) from somewhere? Or just get battery packs custom built from somewhere (better quality cells?)? Could I just wire another battery in parallel with the current one, or would it f**k up the charging, if it weren't the same cells / exact same capacity & voltage? I don't know much about batteries or electronics in general...   I don't even know if the bigger original batteries will fit in the shell, although I do THINK the shells are exactly the same across all the models. Also I'm unsure if it will just work with the current mainboard (guess it should?) or if I need to upgrade it too.

[EUC Extreme]

It should not allow a voltage too low.
Temporarily it can go pretty low but not too much.
I am pushed it several times so that the machine starts to vibrate and a woman tells the end of the battery.

Firewheel's battery housings are half lower than the EUC in general.
So it can accommodate only one row of cells (16 pieces).
But there are four housings.
So any EUC batteries do not fit.

The board is not to my knowledge need to be replaced.
260 is equipped with two batteries.
If you want to buy only one or two more, you can purchase originals.
The safest thing would be to switch to a new all at once. But it is not necessary.
260 model has a small circuit board along with an empty battery compartment. It needs to move out if there wants to battery.
It is not a problem.

[esaj]

It should not allow a voltage too low.
Temporarily it can go pretty low but not too much.
I am pushed it several times so that the machine starts to vibrate and a woman tells the end of the battery.

Thanks for clearing this up, I didn't get any voice-warnings about the battery, was just checking the reading from the indicator. Good to know it should warn when the battery is really running out. So I guess the reading from the indicator isn't that reliable, considering I could easily still accelerate and climb up hills just fine even when it was showing 0%.

 

Firewheel's battery housings are half lower than the EUC in general.
So it can accommodate only one row of cells (16 pieces).
But there are four housings.
So any EUC batteries do not fit.

Yes, I'm aware of this, that's why I thought only originals or custom-built by someone who knows how to build battery packs are probably the only options. Hobby16 mentioned in the other Firewheel-thread that F520 has 4 * 4S4P -packs where only one pack has the BMS circuit board. The wiring is going to be problematic for that many packs, of course.​

 

The board is not to my knowledge need to be replaced.
260 is equipped with two batteries.
If you want to buy only one or two more, you can purchase originals.
The safest thing would be to switch to a new all at once. But it is not necessary.
260 model has a small circuit board along with an empty battery compartment. It needs to move out if there wants to battery.
It is not a problem.

Yeah, if I choose to go this route, I'd probably replace all the packs at once.

Around 20+km of range for the 264Wh batteries was to expected, and this is probably not something I need to do right away, but in the longer run I'm beginning to lean towards higher capacity batteries for the Firewheel instead of Ninebot One. Don't get me wrong, Ninebot One seems a really good and high quality wheel, but I'm not sure if I need another 16" wheel with similar range as the Firewheel (NB1 has 240Wh batteries, so it's also going to be around 20km range) and lower top speed (around 20km/h).

[hobby16]

Here are the pictures after I finished the padding on the wheel, and yeah, it doesn't look as cool as without them, but came out alright in my opinion (still missing the reflector tapes, I'll add them tomorrow):.

​Not to pad your back - pun intended - but frankly, I find your wheel magnifique, much nicer than without the bands, probably because of the vibrant color (so in fact, you have had no merit ). You could have rounded the band at its ends to harmonize with the Firewheel's curves but that's a minor complaint.

Btw, does anyone know what the number in the lowest part of the display is? I haven't checked it a lot, but it feels like it's always saying "1".
I don't have any such thing on my FW260. It must be a feature of the new board.

Now, while I'm glad the battery seemed to do ok with this long trip, I am a bit worried if deeply discharging it could really cause trouble in the longer run (even when the indicator shows 22% at stand still, the voltage must be getting low for it to hit 0% constantly on uphills and during acceleration). Does anyone know? @hobby16? @vee73? You guys seem to know a lot about batteries and electronics in general. I'm seriously considering if I should just cancel the forever-taking Ninebot-order and spend the money on bigger Firewheel-batteries instead. I'd really like to take longer runs on the Firewheel without losing power and worrying about battery capacity.

​You can't deeply discharge the battery. The wheel pedals tilt up and force you to climb down with the warning voice "battery low, battery low". I have tried several times, the deepest down I can go is 56V, meaning 3.5V/cell, a comfortable value for LiIon. As I said somewhere, the FW display does not reflect accurately the battery state. You can have 0 at the display (I mean really 0, not reversing up to 5 or 10 even at very reduced pace) and still ride some 2 or 3 km, at least on my FW260 board version. Likewise, I can ride 24 km total but at 25km/h cruise speed, and probably more at 20 km/h cruise speed (never tried, cruising at 20 km/h is too slow), so if you get those distance, it means vee has been soft and cool with his batteries (not with the housing lol). And I personnally not worry about the battery dipping down under 0 because of a peak power (acceleration or uphill), a transient high discharge is acceptable for a LiIon battery. Even if the battery would age faster, the cons would be trivial, you wouldn't want the worry to spoil the fun, right ?
Indeed, why not just stop the joke with the Ninebot, you would now certainly find it too slow and boring anyway compared to the FW. Invest in a beefy battery instead.

Also, if I decide to go with upgrading the batteries, should I order the original ones (F528) from somewhere? Or just get battery packs custom built from somewhere (better quality cells?)? Could I just wire another battery in parallel with the current one, or would it f**k up the charging, if it weren't the same cells / exact same capacity & voltage? I don't know much about batteries or electronics in general...   I don't even know if the bigger original batteries will fit in the shell, although I do THINK the shells are exactly the same across all the models. Also I'm unsure if it will just work with the current mainboard (guess it should?) or if I need to upgrade it too.

.

​

To me, the FW's LiIon cells, from Samsung IIRC, are of very good quality (it's just that they have made the pack junkware with the BMS cutoff problem and worse, for not correcting that asap), compared to what I have on my other clones. So you can order a new battery from FW because looking elsewhere will involve a lot of hassle (about BMS, dimensions, capacity, battery authenticity...) for uncertain results. Contact Jessie from FW and ask for a price quote (let me know the price because I may be interested)
You have two choices :
1) order a 260Wh and connect it in parallel with the existing 260Wh. But check first that the 2 compartments on the right side are as spacy as the 2 compartement on the left side to house the additionnal battery.
2) order a 520Wh but it will involve a lot lot lot of wires.

I understand you are afraid of 2) so take 1).

 

[esaj]

​Not to pad your back - pun intended - but frankly, I find your wheel magnifique, much nicer than without the bands, probably because of the vibrant color (so in fact, you have had no merit ). You could have rounded the band at its ends to harmonize with the Firewheel's curves but that's a minor complaint.

Thanks, having stared at it a little longer now, it really isn't that bad...   Vee asked what color padding I'd like, and I told him white, black or bright red would be nice, just send whatever you have the most, and he sent red, so it's also thanks to vee 

 

 

​You can't deeply discharge the battery. The wheel pedals tilt up and force you to climb down with the warning voice "battery low, battery low". I have tried several times, the deepest down I can go is 56V, meaning 3.5V/cell, a comfortable value for LiIon. As I said somewhere, the FW display does not reflect accurately the battery state. You can have 0 at the display (I mean really 0, not reversing up to 5 or 10 even at very reduced pace) and still ride some 2 or 3 km, at least on my FW260 board version. Likewise, I can ride 24 km total but at 25km/h cruise speed, and probably more at 20 km/h cruise speed (never tried, cruising at 20 km/h is too slow), so if you get those distance, it means vee has been soft and cool with his batteries (not with the housing lol). And I personnally not worry about the battery dipping down under 0 because of a peak power (acceleration or uphill), a transient high discharge is acceptable for a LiIon battery. Even if the battery would age faster, the cons would be trivial, you wouldn't want the worry to spoil the fun, right ?Indeed, why not just stop the joke with the Ninebot, you would now certainly find it too slow and boring anyway compared to the FW. Invest in a beefy battery instead.

Thank you, it's a relief to know that I can't discharge the batteries too deeply (at least by accident, maybe if I tried really, really hard, but why would I do that? ). And about the Ninebot, no word of shipping my unit (it can't be stuck in customs forever...) even today, so I guess I'll send them an email saying "Sorry, I cancel my order" this weekend. After yesterdays' ride and thinking about it, I'm now confident that while Ninebot is a good wheel, I wouldn't be satisfied with the speed anymore, and it doesn't have higher range, so no point in having another 16" wheel with similar range and lower speed.

I figured too that the battery indicator isn't reliable, as vee now also mentioned the "low battery" -warning, and I wasn't even getting that yet when I got home. 

 

​

To me, the FW's LiIon cells, from Samsung IIRC, are of very good quality (it's just that they have made the pack junkware with the BMS cutoff problem and worse, for not correcting that asap), compared to what I have on my other clones. So you can order a new battery from FW because looking elsewhere will involve a lot of hassle (about BMS, dimensions, capacity, battery authenticity...) for uncertain results. Contact Jessie from FW and ask for a price quote (let me know the price because I may be interested)
You have two choices :
1) order a 260Wh and connect it in parallel with the existing 260Wh. But check first that the 2 compartments on the right side are as spacy as the 2 compartement on the left side to house the additionnal battery.
2) order a 520Wh but it will involve a lot lot lot of wires.

I understand you are afraid of 2) so take 1).

​

Yeah, pretty much the only thing I'd be worried with wiring a full 4 packs would be miswiring them or shorting them... but on the other hand, I think that could happen with 2 separate packs too, so not sure if that'd actually be a problem regarding 260 vs 520 (vs even 779). Original FW-batteries would probably be the best choice, as they'd have the correct dimensions & wiring out-of-the-box, although I'd have to shunt the BMS myself (I do have a cheap (Parkside) 30W soldering iron, but it has no temperature control, so I'd be worried about frying the circuit ). At least it seems simple enough looking at the pictures.

In dmethvin's repair-pictures, you can see that one of the empty compartments in F260 houses the display control board, so that'd have to be moved somewhere else also to fit the extra batteries.

[dmethvin]

I have a nice soldering iron for electronic work and then a hotter butane powered one (like this) for heavier work. Seems like a decently hot iron will not damage the board in the time it takes to melt the solder on the pad and put in the shunt, after all they soldered it to begin with. If you were worried about damaging the BMS maybe you could cut back the insulation on the wires and shunt it before the solder pads? That would mean you'd need to cut a bigger hole in the blue plastic I suspect. 

[esaj]

I have a nice soldering iron for electronic work and then a hotter butane powered one (like this) for heavier work. Seems like a decently hot iron will not damage the board in the time it takes to melt the solder on the pad and put in the shunt, after all they soldered it to begin with. If you were worried about damaging the BMS maybe you could cut back the insulation on the wires and shunt it before the solder pads? That would mean you'd need to cut a bigger hole in the blue plastic I suspect. 

​Shunting further back on the wires could actually work, or just solder right on the spot, if there are no heat-sensitive components nearby. I believe that the original soldering work for mass-production circuit boards with surface mount components occurs in a some sort of oven (not sure what's it called, reflow oven?), but the heavier gauge solders could be made with different equipment... If there was more space, one could just cut the wires and use screw terminals, but it's already cramped as is, so no go with that   

Anyway, I don't even know how much the batteries would cost, the whole project might be a no-go already if they're really pricey with shipping and possible customs duties + VAT (if they get close to new wheels' price, it could make more sense just to order another wheel, shunt it, seal it and use the current for spare parts ).

Edit: I actually noticed a slight vibration on the wheel today, that changes in frequency when slowing down / speeding up, looking at the tyre and rim, I found a small drilled hole in one of the "spokes" of the wheel. Don't know if it's factory made or if vee made it to attach the magnet for the bike computer (the old shell actually still has a bike computer attached to the front with a hole cut for it, and the wiring running down the inside to the sensor attached inside near the bottom).  If you look at this picture:

http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/lappi/article7765335.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/yksipyörä yksipyöräinen solopyörä soolopyörä yksirenkainen 1 28012015

you'll notice that Vee also had another display on the front (I think it's the temperature for the heating system he used for the batteries during winter).

[hobby16]

pretty much the only thing I'd be worried with wiring a full 4 packs would be miswiring them or shorting them... but on the other hand, I think that could happen with 2 separate packs too, so not sure if that'd actually be a problem regarding 260 vs 520 (vs even 779). Original FW-batteries would probably be the best choice, as they'd have the correct dimensions & wiring out-of-the-box, although I'd have to shunt the BMS myself (I do have a cheap (Parkside) 30W soldering iron, but it has no temperature control, so I'd be worried about frying the circuit ). At least it seems simple enough looking at the pictures.

 

I am certain the battery is delivered already wired wether it's a 4 pack (520Wh) or 2 pack (260Wh) battery, you don't have to wire it.

The problem with the 520Wh is not its installation, but the reliability in the long term because the huge bunch of wires travelling in the housing. With a 260Wh battery, you have less wires but the best point is you DON'T need to shunt the BMS. Since two batteries are in parallel, the battery with the shunted BMS will ensure that the cutoff will never occur.

[esaj]

I am certain the battery is delivered already wired wether it's a 4 pack (520Wh) or 2 pack (260Wh) battery, you don't have to wire it.

The problem with the 520Wh is not its installation, but the reliability in the long term because the huge bunch of wires travelling in the housing. With a 260Wh battery, you have less wires but the best point is you DON'T need to shunt the BMS. Since two batteries are in parallel, the battery with the shunted BMS will ensure that the cutoff will never occur.

​Yeah, that makes sense, two separate parallel packs would work as "backups" for each other, if one fails, the other will continue to provide power...   Although, if the BMS in the other battery cuts off, is attaching the charger the only way to reset it? If I was far away and suddenly lost half of the battery capacity, that could become a long walk...  

Edit: Or do you mean that the other battery with shunted BMS causes the one without the shunt to be reset immediately if it tries to cut the power?

[hobby16]

​Edit: Or do you mean that the other battery with shunted BMS causes the one without the shunt to be reset immediately if it tries to cut the power?

​I don't know. A BMS cufoff is latched (meaning your wheel is like dead, no power, no nothing, I got it once in the middle of the road, 2 km from home !) until you plug in the charger to reset it. Maybe a parallel battery will act like a charger, but since the paralleling is on the discharge wires and not the charge wires, I'm not sure (in fact the charge wires must be paralleled too in order for the 2 batteries to be charged at the same time, but those wires are protected by a polarity reversal diode so it's like they are separate even if they are paralleled).

What is sure that the shunted BMS will not let you down. An empty F520 is definitively a very rare occurrence, you would get such mishap only after riding more than 40 km, or 2h. For such distance, I take my car or motorcycle

[esaj]

What is sure that the shunted BMS will not let you down. An empty F520 is definitively a very rare occurrence, you would get such mishap only after riding more than 40 km, or 2h. For such distance, I take my car or motorcycle

​I've done 2 or 3 hour bicycle rides (50-75km) in the summer many times, so I could see myself riding 40km with the Firewheel in one go... but that would probably be enough for me, and most trips would be shorter than the entire battery charge. I'm sending the email to jessie soon, I'll ask for the prices of 264Wh, 528Wh and 779Wh-battery packs (in USD or Euro), as well as shipping costs to Finland and France (I understood you might be interested in ordering bigger or another 264Wh too?).

Edit: sent the mail, now we'll just have to wait.