Cranium Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 With the advent of new legislation primarily over "Hoverboards" or "Self balancing Scooters", we find our EUs getting pulled into the mix. Even the very reputable manufacturers are seeing their products banned at Universities, townships, and cities by legislators. The biggest reason for this is from the propensity of Chinese companies that want to make a quick buck without proper R&D and lack of safety standards for testing these products. And some of these companies are willing to cut costs even further by purposefully deceiving customers with mislabeled batteries, chargers, and safety certifications. This has resulted in many injuries and fires from these unsafe products. Even in our EU community we see posts of device failures and face-plants with injuries happening on a fairly regular basis. And this community is but a very small fraction of the total number of riders out there. While the EU's aren't catching fire, I think they are part of the problem from the standpoint of safety. I've posted in the past that I feel that there is a lack of safety in our EUs. There is no redundancy of electrical systems and no communication between the Battery Management System and Controller Board. This means that failures of a single component or even random transient issues can cause bodily harm. I think this will cause the continued increase of bans of these devices until manufacturers make these devices safer and there are standards created that they adhere to. One such standard has recently been announced by Underwriters Laboratories (UL) that covers self-balancing scooters and similar devices and is titled "UL 2272 – Battery Systems for Use in Self Balancing Scooters". The standard will cover the electrical drive train system including the battery and charger system combinations for electric-powered self-balancing scooters. I would love to see the details of this standard but it is only available through a rather expensive purchase. However, the outline looks very promising. There is change coming to the industry and that change will be good. This is why I think it is a good time to hold off of buying for now to see what the next generation will bring. The new devices that are UL 2272 certified will be safer and bolster the confidence of people that currently condemn our EUs as not being fit to ride in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonopanic Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 But the new and safer EUCs have the same design than the actual models. If the wheels are banned, they have only two options. Lift the ban or hold onto it. Either way, for the masses, you are in the same boat with the actual models. And i want my fun now, so i don´t wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I need transportation, and independents, eu's are the smallest vehicle to use with mass transit no matter what the idiot authorities say, I can stick it under seat if have to, the only other vehicle is an electronic longboard, if not more expensive, and even then there are authorities that band skateboarding now! Really, if you try sticking a smaller second wheel, front or back, and slightly shift center of weight on it, is it going to be any safer??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I couldn’t agree more. To the day the chinese manufacturers put people’s lives on risk. Even children ride EUCs and hoverboards., not being aware of the risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 I think probably people will continue to buy EUCs, no matter that the safety is what it is (nearly non-existant? )... but it's different to be informed of the risks and accept them, than to buy a vehicle and just "expect it to work" always and in every condition. Personally, I'm still going to buy a new wheel (well, one without batteries to be exact) within a month or so. Just having hard time doing decisions, I could just buy another Firewheel and keep the current for parts / the custom frame project, or just replace the shell (or fix the one I have, the screw-poles are fractured/broken and it doesn't seal properly). On the other hand, knowing what pain it is to work with the Firewheel shells, some other 16" or 18" might be a better choice (not to mention I wouldn't mind even more powerful motor, although the FW motor can take me above 30km/h and still has loads of torque with my weight)... At one point I was already set for KS-18, but seeing how the original batteries are formed / placed inside the shell, I have doubts that I'd have lots of trouble trying to fit 4 x "normal" separate 16S-packs inside there and get them to stay in place properly. Or maybe I should wait for the new KS16 and/or the new Gotway-model? Decisions, decisions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 5 hours ago, Cranium said: With the advent of new legislation primarily over "Hoverboards" or "Self balancing Scooters", we find our EUs getting pulled into the mix. Even the very reputable manufacturers are seeing their products banned at Universities, townships, and cities by legislators. The biggest reason for this is from the propensity of Chinese companies that want to make a quick buck without proper R&D and lack of safety standards for testing these products. And some of these companies are willing to cut costs even further by purposefully deceiving customers with mislabeled batteries, chargers, and safety certifications. This has resulted in many injuries and fires from these unsafe products. Even in our EU community we see posts of device failures and face-plants with injuries happening on a fairly regular basis. And this community is but a very small fraction of the total number of riders out there. While the EU's aren't catching fire, I think they are part of the problem from the standpoint of safety. I've posted in the past that I feel that there is a lack of safety in our EUs. There is no redundancy of electrical systems and no communication between the Battery Management System and Controller Board. This means that failures of a single component or even random transient issues can cause bodily harm. I think this will cause the continued increase of bans of these devices until manufacturers make these devices safer and there are standards created that they adhere to. One such standard has recently been announced by Underwriters Laboratories (UL) that covers self-balancing scooters and similar devices and is titled "UL 2272 – Battery Systems for Use in Self Balancing Scooters". The standard will cover the electrical drive train system including the battery and charger system combinations for electric-powered self-balancing scooters. I would love to see the details of this standard but it is only available through a rather expensive purchase. However, the outline looks very promising. There is change coming to the industry and that change will be good. This is why I think it is a good time to hold off of buying for now to see what the next generation will bring. The new devices that are UL 2272 certified will be safer and bolster the confidence of people that currently condemn our EUs as not being fit to ride in public. Forget about this battery standard. We need an overall standard. The European ISO 12100 Typ C standard which is currently in the making is a point to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 17 minutes ago, OliverH said: Forget about this battery standard. We need an overall standard. The European ISO 12100 Typ C standard which is currently in the making is a point to start with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranium Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 17 minutes ago, OliverH said: Forget about this battery standard. We need an overall standard. The European ISO 12100 Typ C standard which is currently in the making is a point to start with. You didn't look at the outline of what the standard covers, did you? It is much more than a battery standard. Please list a reference to the European ISO 12000 Type C standard. The only thing I saw was references for safety standards addressing a specific type or related group of machines as a general classification but didn't find anything specific to EUs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jurgen Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 There is a high probability that it will get a lot worse before it gets any better, and the pendulum will swing towards overregulation. Why keep complaining and wait till others, be it manufacturers, regulators, local authorities, take the decission for us??? Self-regulation would be a good start: what if the EUC community here would develop a charter on safety (where to ride and how fast, absolute max speed, etc), recommendations for newbies, and a rating on EUCs (simple stats by our members here on the forum would be a good start). Nothing difficult, the moderators can moderate and delegate to a few people that take the lead, and the rest of us deliver the input in a usable format (instead of chit-chat in throughout numerous threads). Any volunteers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villac Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I'm very interested in this discussion. Two days ago I arrived at work, a hospital, and the security guard pulled up behind me in a car and said, "Hey buddy, you can't ride that here". I thought the fact that I did just ride that here was evidence to the contrary, but I can be a bit concrete in my thinking sometimes. I responded as I usually do when I can't think of anything positive to say and replied, "Thank you" before lifting my trolley handle and getting to work. In town, a new sign has sprung up on main street forbidding skateboards, scooters, and hoverboards. I suppose that I will try to comply; choose a route off main street, not ride on hospital property, but these experiences have made me feel for all of you who have been dealing with restrictions. I have lots of off-road places to ride recreationally, but commuting to work is one of the best aspects of being an EU user. I don't mind regulations to increase safely, but complete restriction is if the risks of the activity are mainly self-injurious. I don't think authorities will accept a safety guideline developed by users, however as a group of users we can attempt to influence local regulations to protect use of EUs, even if it is in designated areas. As an example, IMBA for mountain bikers attempts to protect access to trails and other areas for cycling use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 7 hours ago, Cranium said: You didn't look at the outline of what the standard covers, did you? It is much more than a battery standard. Please list a reference to the European ISO 12000 Type C standard. The only thing I saw was references for safety standards addressing a specific type or related group of machines as a general classification but didn't find anything specific to EUs. It's not final and public yet. It defines technical requirements. A type c standard defines product specific requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lizardmech Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I would be surprised if the UL specs included much more than basics to prevent them catching fire. It seems unlikely they spent months riding around on balancing vehicles to come up with ideas. It's better to have an open spec designed by manufacturers or governments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankman Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 I agree with @Cranium so I hope in few time there will be some safety standard for EU. But meanwhile I don't think we should not buy any EU. There is a very important rule we can follow, this is the law of the market : if a product is good and reliable it is largely sold. I know that on this forum there are some EU producers and resellers, they read our posts and know all our concerns and our expectations that we report on the forum. This is a good way to influence the production and the market. So I think that every new idea, issue or failure that we experience with our EU should be posted on the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 6 hours ago, lizardmech said: I would be surprised if the UL specs included much more than basics to prevent them catching fire. It seems unlikely they spent months riding around on balancing vehicles to come up with ideas. It's better to have an open spec designed by manufacturers or governments. From what I know about other UL specs that is probably true. The specs are focused more on safety than on performance. So I can imagine the UL addressing battery pack design, wiring, physical protection of the electronics and battery inside the case, etc. Based on some of the crazy things we've seen, having that as a baseline would be great. To address the performance and reliability aspects I could see some organization of manufacturers creating standards, but we will need to get the fly-by-nights out of the system first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetricUSA Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 Unfortunately, this is two issues at work here, one battery safety, the screwed us, then the where to ride issue, which should be everywhere.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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