[SOLVED] Begode selling Master "LiTech" packs: we have a problem

[supercurio]

Introduction

As you may know, Begode has been offering battery pack options for the first time with the Master, a welcome advancement.

Options are typically, as seen (for now) on the pre-order page of MyEWheel

 

The LiTech upgrade is +120 Euros for Samsung cells, +300 Euros for Molicel P42A.

Some websites like @Afeez Kay Erides.com opted to sell only the LiTech variant, calling it: "Begode MASTER Suspension Electric Unicycle 134V Li-TECH Assembled"

The problem

While preparing his Master review, Raphaël from Bonheur sur Seine asked his contact at Begode to describe what the LiTech option listed means. The answer he got is: LiTech packs still using Begode's BMS but are assembled by LiTech instead. No other difference.
LiTech being described as a supplier for Begode, who sells the wheels with any of the pack options.

Now, it directly contradicted previous discussion I had both on the phone and by mail (including @Jason McNeil from eWheels) with LiTech CEO Henry Zhang. We got in touch some time ago to talk about Smart BMS.
In these discussions, LiTech expressed concerns on the long-term reliability of Begode's design and eWheels is pushing towards a redundant pack configuration.

As a result, LiTech has been working on their own BMS solution from scratch. So far, eWheels is only interested selling safer Master units, combining a 100% LiTech redundant battery configuration.

What does that mean

The implications are frankly stunning.

• Begode has been selling wheels for months, that don't, and won't exist
• All distributors who sold LiTech variants will not get them (except from eWheels)
• All customers who preordered LiTech variants will not receive what they ordered (except from eWheels)
• LiTech asked everybody selling these "LiTech" packs to remove mentions from their website and they did not comply
• All distributors listing LiTech options are unknowingly committing false advertising
• LiTech has no plan to assemble packs with Begode BMS which they consider unsatisfactory.
• Everybody who ordered a Master only because of the expected improved battery safety will not get what they wanted  (except from eWheels)
• Begode might attempt to clone LiTech's design as a workaround to the failure securing them as supplier and the inability to fulfill the orders already committed and paid for.

Footnotes

I understand that my statements here contradict what has been said for months, including by Begode's CEO in meetings with distributors. Some distributors will have a very hard time believing any of this, maybe I can help here, DMs open.

My main source is LiTech CEO, I am sure 100% of his identity and legitimacy.

I think it is plausible that Begode has been accumulating pretend "LiTech" preorders in order to accumulate volume, to use as leverage to circumvent the eWheels exclusivity deal.

While I understand that LiTech EUC packs are a eWheels+LiTech developed venture, I wish there was no exclusivity deal in order to improve the safety of EUC riders worldwide.
Therefore I would also like to pledge @Jason McNeil eWheels to find a way to enable the distribution of LiTech solutions with selected distributors, possibly via an agreement including non-compete and quality requirements.

Edited May 25, 2022 by supercurio

[meepmeepmayer]

Some questions:

What is so bad about the Begode BMS? What are the "concerns on long-term reliability"?

Is the difference important in real life, given that we have been riding EUCs for a time now and BMS problems are not a thing?

If nothing else, the Gotway guys are fast, so how likely is it that they just make a better BMS if it turns out to be strongly demanded by dealers and riders?

Are the LiTech packs only about the BMS or also about battery build quality (welds or whatnot)?

33 minutes ago, supercurio said:

LiTech packs still using Begode's BMS but are assembled by LiTech instead.

How does it make sense for LiTech to do that? This seems... illogical somehow. LiTech won't supply to Gotway, but Gotway sell them their BMS? LiTech dilutes the reputation of "their" battery packs by also building packs with Begode BMS?

Nevermind that was just what Begode apparently said, but not what LiTech will do.

Thank you for the insider info. One party says one thing, the other says something else. Poor dealers.

(Sorry if these are dumb questions, I haven't followed this alternative battery pack stuff.)

Edited May 19, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[BleepBloopBlop]

I'm confused by your assertion that Begode is advertising LiTech packs. From what I've seen that is only on the distributor websites. 

 

Begode has been building packs with 50E, 40T and P42A cells so far. 

 

http://www.begode.com/productinfo/770685.html

Edited May 19, 2022 by BleepBloopBlop

[supercurio]

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Some questions:

What is so bad about the Begode BMS? What are the "concerns on long-term reliability"?

It was along the lines of: characteristics which are known to cause failures of some BMS and then the packs, were found the same in the Begode Master pack.

It doesn't mean that an end customer of a wheel would have the same requirements, but at least it was not good enough for LiTech to entertain the idea of assembling packs with Begode's BMS and put a sticker with their brand on it.

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Is the difference important in real life, given that we have been riding EUCs for a time now and BMS problems are not a thing?

My personal view: I lost count of Begode 900Wh packs failing in my local riders group, several of which caught fire.

I was considering buying a Master with LiTech packs, but since what is promised doesn't exist and the design and implementation of the Begode Master packs is about the same as the previous generation, I will avoid.

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

If nothing else, the Gotway guys are fast, so how likely is it that they just make a better BMS if it turns out to be strongly demanded by dealers and riders?

Are the LiTech packs only about the BMS or also about battery build quality (welds or whatnot)?

Hard to speculate on how Begode will handle this. I don't think the deception will go down too well, but you are right there might be opportunities arising from it.

Not a LiTech rep, but I understand that their pack is 100% their own design, BMS included. They would follow both eWheels and their own specifications for EUC packs.
They have a whole customizable Smart BMS product line under another brand as well.

13 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How does it make sense for LiTech to do that? This seems... illogical somehow. LiTech won't supply to Gotway, but Gotway sell them their BMS? LiTech dilutes the reputation of "their" battery packs by also building packs with Begode BMS?

That made very little sense indeed, aside from Begode capitalizing on the LiTech brand name which was popularized by eWheels.. after suffering multiple fire attributed to Begode packs. It was a long shot, and it doesn't seem it's gonna work out.

 

2 minutes ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

I'm confused by your assertion that Begode is advertising LiTech packs. From what I've seen that is only on the distributor websites. 
Begode has been building packs with 50E, 40T and P42A cells so far. 

http://www.begode.com/productinfo/770685.html

Good point on "advertising"
They have been advertising towards distributors and people making reviews, which translated in mentions of these "LiTech" packs on web shops, online discussions and reviews.

[Tawpie]

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

I wish there was no exclusivity deal in order to improve the safety of EUC riders worldwide.

That would be nice, right? I hadn't heard anything about an exclusive arrangement though, that's new. Makes sense actually sort of. If eWheels invested in the development of their 900 wH LiTech pack or its BMS, they may or may not have a competitive advantage and given how the capitalistic game is played—can and should use that advantage. When you build a brand and it gets recognition—exploit it baby.

It's not that the Begode solution is inherently "unsafe", it's more that it has a record tarnished by the 900 wH LG series and a general queasiness about their general inattention to detail. Near as I can tell their recent packs have been as not-terrible as anyone else's.

Wasn't there a LiTech sticker on a pack inside an early Shermax? I would think that LiTech would sell to anyone that'll pay their markup...

(and never forget how easy it is to print a label for a battery pack that says anything you want it to say. Not that anyone would ever do that.)

Edited May 19, 2022 by Tawpie

[UniBlab]

Exclusivity is mentioned here - on the FAQ of the Master -

 

I see one of your competitors is also offering the Master with LiTech battery packs, is this true?

Back in early 2021, we made the decision to hold selling Begode Wheels, until we could partner with an independent battery pack supplier who could build a safer battery pack than the 900Wh Begode, LG M50LT 21700 battery packs, while our competition continued to sell this equipment over this period, despite the known risks. As of this time, the relationship with this supplier is exclusive to eWheels in North America. LiTech will not be providing battery packs to other North American Sellers. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by UniBlab

[supercurio]

Good catch @UniBlab!
An accurate description of the state of exclusivity, which is limited to North America.

A lot is happening behind the scenes and I believe we should expect an announcement from Begode fairly soon, with distributors not leaving them much choice now that the cat is out the bag.

@Tawpie I'm starting to become hopeful regarding LiTech packs worldwide availability also.

[UniBlab]

Just wanted to thank @Jason McNeil for his passion and dedication to our sport and safety - that's why all my purchases are made at Ewheels.

[Tawpie]

eWheels has some clout! But they probably had to commit to purchase a large number of packs etc. to get the exclusive arrangement in North America.

I'm still not all-in cheerleading LiTech though... I know eWheels selected them and all, but until they did I had never heard of them. I haven't bothered to research them much other than to find that they've been in the battery business for 6 years—which isn't a newcomer but it isn't very long. Their product line is broad and includes guitar hangers—what is their track record building high cell count battery packs that get run down stairs, cartwheeled at 50 mph, bashed and battered by the likes of Chance and pushed to their theoretical limits by the NYC crew? To my understanding, eWheels hasn't started their recall program yet so we haven't seen much LiTech product in the wild… or have we?

I guess we'll find out.

[The Brahan Seer]

This link to the LiTech website demonstrates they are a Chinese company that makes to order Lithium batteries and BMS for customers and will help with context with this discussion.. 

https://www.litechpower.com/about/

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

[BleepBloopBlop]

This whole thread seems like someone making a big deal out of something that isn't. Is Litech producting 32S battery packs and replacing the union circuit to make it in parallel vs series as stock on the master? Outside of Litech offering temperature sensors on their BMS I don't see a technical advantage to them. The controller doesn't integrate with this temperature sensing. It would only be helpful in doing charge cutoff if the cells got out of temperature range. It has been previously mentioned their BMS won't be a smart unit that you can see parallel cell group voltages.

[UniBlab]

4 minutes ago, Dosingpsychedelics said:

You forgot our safety gear!

 

[Paul A]

Begode wheels catch on fire.

So LiTech battery packs are being used.

LiTech do not trust the Begode BMS, so insist on building their own.

 

Ewheels has an exclusive agreement for LiTech battery packs for North America.

LiTech are not providing their packs to other North American sellers.

However, other retailers continue to offer LiTech packs, which may or may not actually be in the wheels.

 

Do not know yet how Begode will handle this.

 

[US69]

Hello!

Just to mention it:

the 900wh packs and ALL GotWay BMS before July/August 2021 didn’t deserve the name “BMS” , as the battery was ALL time connected to the motherboard, no matter what happened on the BMS-PCB.

BUT:

Since August 2021 GW changed their BMS design to a very different one, which is on par with the other EUC producers. The only “bad” thing still on the BMS is the powered charge port.

Other than that NOW the BMS design by GW has a separate “P” Line, which in case of a failure can shut down the battery pack (with the second pack still working).

 

so there HAVE been serious changes been done by GW and -to my knowledge- the only difference to a LiTech BMS is that the GW BMS is missing a temperature diode.

the temp diode isn’t so necessary….as even when the LiTech pack has one, the GW Motherboard isn’t able todo anything with that information.

 

so beside that, I personally see no real need to pay a up price of 600bucks for a “real” LiTech BMS.

 

when I am wrong, it would be nice if somebody corrects me, because generally saying “liTech is more durable “ doesn’t help at all when there are no details about WHAT is better….

In general in my view all this 40t, p42 choosing isn’t needed for casual riders! 95% of the time when normal cruising 400-600Watts are needed. Not everybody tackles 45degree hills or drives constantly in Michael Jackson Style

my 2 cents!

long time since the last post 😎

[Luc Cossette]

I have talk to begode offering the 40T option did not ask if they will proceed with other option.

I think Jason have being thoughout enough fire....so he move on and find also invest in the survival of Ewheels and safety of the riders with Litech

also batteryless euc are faster to get and adding battery once ewheels got the hands and infrastructure it will benefits all of Canadian/U.S. citizens.

we know alienrides do not sell Leaperkim euc.

Sorry for other Country

Like the MSS or monster sport/nylonove pedals or Alexa shells,pads,seat are not accessible unless having  deep pocket ordering from Poland  or Russia to America.

i guess E-Rides still have an Ace up hes sleeve. We see Afeez is not the type of man to give up helping the community too in hes way.

 

[US69]

38 minutes ago, BleepBloopBlop said:

This whole thread seems like someone making a big deal out of something that isn't. Is Litech producting 32S battery packs and replacing the union circuit to make it in parallel vs series as stock on the master? Outside of Litech offering temperature sensors on their BMS I don't see a technical advantage to them. The controller doesn't integrate with this temperature sensing. It would only be helpful in doing charge cutoff if the cells got out of temperature range. It has been previously mentioned their BMS won't be a smart unit that you can see parallel cell group voltages.

On point in my view

[Rawnei]

This mean if I hadn't already cancelled my Master LiTech 40T order (from a European reseller) I would basically just be waiting forever for no delivery? Nice.

[supercurio]

7 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

This mean if I hadn't already cancelled my Master LiTech 40T order (from a European reseller) I would basically just be waiting forever for no delivery? Nice.

If we didn't investigate and uncovered this, essentially yes.
Until today, Begode was only communicating with distributors that the "LiTech" packs would arrive later, while confirming what we now know is not gonna happen (Begode BMS assembled by LiTech)

Edited May 19, 2022 by supercurio

[Paul A]

LiTech pack with LiTech BMS.

Not guinea pig tested yet.

 

[US69]

29 minutes ago, supercurio said:

If we didn't investigate and uncovered this, essentially yes.
Until today, Begode was only communicating with distributors that the "LiTech" packs would arrive later, while confirming what we now know is not gonna happen (Begode BMS assembled by LiTech)

Sorry, still don’t understand what’s “so good” with LiTech….

for me that’s all to general and not worth the money (as said since August 2021)

[Paradox]

9 minutes ago, US69 said:

Sorry, still don’t understand what’s “so good” with LiTech….

for me that’s all to general and not worth the money (as said since August 2021)

There is an explanation of the differences it LiTech and Begode packs.  You have to scroll down past the description of the wheel.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/begode-ex-n-2700wh-battery-2800w-motor/

Edited May 19, 2022 by Paradox

[supercurio]

Please note that the intent of this post is not to focus on comparing the merits or worth of LiTech vs Begode BMS and packs. I think it's absolutely great that there's choice, people can make their own mind and purchase decisions.

The problem highlighted is that this choice doesn't actually exist.
The company and brand sold as an upgrade says they don't want to be involved in any of this.

Edited May 19, 2022 by supercurio

[chanman]

Regardless of the merits of the litech packs (which I do believe are significant, but it is unclear to me how much begode's packs have improved since), this is an outright scam by Begode using Litech's name, even if the packs do/would have materialized with Begode's components and Litech's name on them at a markup.

Edited May 19, 2022 by chanman

[US69]

3 minutes ago, Paradox said:

There is an explanation of the differences it LiTech and Begode packs.  You have to scroll down past the description of the wheel.

https://www.ewheels.com/product/begode-ex-n-2700wh-battery-2800w-motor/

Thanks!

flying over it, beside the temp probes, which are useless as long as you don’t charge at 0degree Celsius i don’t see any advantages…..

at least not to the new GW BMS.

nothing thats worth so much money.

As said-my personal opinion!