KS18XL brief "hitch" when accelerating and braking quick

[vikingto]

So mid-ride today, wheel all of a sudden decides to have a single quick "hitch" when applying quick hard-ish bursts (mild-hard to hard-hard), either accelerating or braking. So routine moderate-hard carving would cause it, anytime I would gas or brake quickly not really leaning in that hard. And it's not the type of pressure I'm applying that would even come close to a cut-out. So I'm not pushing it gas-wise when describing this. And the hitch is a single quick sound and feel, that doesn't effect performance other than it makes me nervous, and that it might be a precursor of a bigger problem..? It feels like the wheel gives out for a fraction of a second initially but never fails, again gassing or braking.

The way it came on was this. Had ridden 30 minutes, then had to pause for 30 mins while an oar boat had to pass through the canal. Chopped it up with a local fisherman on the pier getting drunk and sunburnt, with the wheel powered on the whole time. Then proceeded to roll out, 10 minutes later the blacktop started to have some deeper cracks in it, and I popped a few of them and then a couple speed bumps nothing serious. Then the issue seemed to start around that time, but it may have been right before that area where I might've just mistook the issue as rolling over some random small rocks or pebbles idk.

Possible causes.  My rider weight is 220 with gear, and the last few rides I'd been playing with medium-mode. I've always used hard mode except on trails, but I'm on blacktop 80% of the time anyways. Lately, been using medium for a more comfortable and smoother ride. The other cause of this might be that I've been practicing a lot over the last couple months trying to rock back and forth in a tighter and tighter area and for longer periods of time, can rock non-stop now YAY..

Any ideas on what this could be?  And could my practicing rocking back and forth a lot lately have caused this?  Or is it more to do with hitting cracks and small potholes at my weight?  It's a 1yr old wheel without a tremendous amount of miles on it, and feel I've treated it good for the most part.  Please help..

[duanew]

I would suggest making sure you axle is tight and did not loosen with use.

[vikingto]

6 hours ago, duanew said:

I would suggest making sure you axle is tight and did not loosen with use.

Hey thanks for the response. So I suspected it might have something to do with the axle, just by the way it feels, and after using different search terms here on the board. So I just got done opening up the wheel, and sure enough the axle is cracked.

Probably a good thing that I replace it because, looking back, I suspect it may have been mildly bent for awhile. After having the wheel for a few months last year, riding rocky trails and pothole/cracked pavement (all over my city lol...), when I started to ride one-legged the tire would always rub the sidewall with the right legged riding, but never when riding with the left leg only.

Haven't researched yet what's involved with replacing the axle since I just figured it out, but any advice on other things I should look for or do while opening up the motor? Maybe grease the bearings? Waterproof the seals on the motor more? There's no evidence of water ingress anywhere so far, just curious what you think.

[vikingto]

Turns out the axle isn't cracked after all. Not sure what it could be yet, but still researching to see if others have experienced this issue and what they did.

[Paradox]

If this gets progressively worse you might check for a cracked inner shell.  It doesn't quite resemble the symptoms of a cracked inner shell, yet.  If you have the wheel open look for cracks around the pedal hangers.  Check to see the pedal hangers are tight too.

[vikingto]

No cracks to the inner shell. Just removed one of the pedal hangers, and now realize I should've wrenched both hangers back and forth first to see if they slip. There was gunk built up in the hangers from wd40 and dirt, but nothing excessive I didn't think. If anything I'll clean them all up good and put it back together, maybe it just needs a good cleaning and tightening.. Most likely not, but I'll keep at it til I figure this out grrr...

[.....]

1 hour ago, vikingto said:

No cracks to the inner shell. Just removed one of the pedal hangers, and now realize I should've wrenched both hangers back and forth first to see if they slip. There was gunk built up in the hangers from wd40 and dirt, but nothing excessive I didn't think. If anything I'll clean them all up good and put it back together, maybe it just needs a good cleaning and tightening.. Most likely not, but I'll keep at it til I figure this out grrr...

Its pretty much gna be the axle hold down. KS doenst work like the other wheels on the 18xl, so its not as prevelant or often an issue. I like KS method for axle and body mount, but you do have to watch for cracking on the shells. DO NOT use loctite near the screws that go thru the shells. If the axle looks fine and is tight, it could also be as simple as pedal hanger rods. Its no secret that those rods arent great material and they go thru chinesium pedals. I had to shim my pedal rods to get the clicking to stop. Im ocd or i wouldnt have bothered. IIRC, I had do the same for my mten. If it IS the pedal rods, go find an aluminum can and scissors. Shimming is no big deal, unless you're prone to cutting your fingers. Be mindful of the pedal tabs. Its easy to put those on and get it wrong.

Edited May 18, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[vikingto]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 If it IS the pedal rods, go find an aluminum can and scissors. Shimming is no big deal, unless you're prone to cutting your fingers. Be mindful of the pedal tabs. Its easy to put those on and get it wrong.

Hey thanks Shane! I sure hope it's the pedal rods needing to be shimmed. Because on the discussion below, they seemed to experience a similar effect but my sound isn't nearly the "clonk" sound they were having. Mine doesn't really give much of a sound, it's more of like an 1/8"-1/4" give when gassing and braking.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11165-strange-clonck-sound-from-my-v8/

And I say I'd rather shim the pedal rods then put the wheel back together first before opening up the motor to do a weld job. Btw, you see any problem with shimming the rods, then dropping the inner shell on, then rocking it back and forth without installing the outer shells?

 

I can't imagine that would be an issue just to test it out. Because I just don't wanna go through adding silicone to the motor wires, only to have to pull it back out if the problem is beyond shimming. Your thoughts?

[vikingto]

@ShanesPlanet So kinda like this correct? 

 

[.....]

29 minutes ago, vikingto said:

Hey thanks Shane! I sure hope it's the pedal rods needing to be shimmed. Because on the discussion below, they seemed to experience a similar effect but my sound isn't nearly the "clonk" sound they were having. Mine doesn't really give much of a sound, it's more of like an 1/8"-1/4" give when gassing and braking.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/11165-strange-clonck-sound-from-my-v8/

And I say I'd rather shim the pedal rods then put the wheel back together first before opening up the motor to do a weld job. Btw, you see any problem with shimming the rods, then dropping the inner shell on, then rocking it back and forth without installing the outer shells?

 

I can't imagine that would be an issue just to test it out. Because I just don't wanna go through adding silicone to the motor wires, only to have to pull it back out if the problem is beyond shimming. Your thoughts?

The vid link isnt exactly what I'm thinking, but Im just guessing, so don't quote me on knowing.

its been a while, but I dont think you even need take the shell off to shim the rods. You should be able to pull and push on the pedals and feel if theres any play. Most times its not an issue while we ride, but if the play is enuogh, it tends to give a little click feeling when chaning directions or going from front to rear weight on the pedals.

I havent had to open my 18XL in so long, I hardly recall exactly how the hangers and all are mounted. I do recall it was 4 screws rather than being held by just the axle. At any rate, you shouldnt need worry about ANY of that, to merely try the shim trick. Itll just cost ya a coke can and a few minutes. Fwiw, I used an ink pen to give the long shims a curve before pushing in with the rods. The wider the shim, the more it curls around the rod, thus taking more room. You are basically making the rod seem larger in diameter, thus reducing the clearance between it and the hole it slides thru.  Shimming ALL my wheels (aside from the nylonove) pedals is just something I do when I first get them. I'd say go for the shims, it aint gna hurt anything. Its not the actual rod moving tho, as the grub screws hold the rod tight. Its the clearance between the pedal holes and pin. Resist the urge to try and rectify it by overtightening the pin grub screws. No real need for loctite Either. Chinesium pedals have chinesium threads, so don't tempt fate and overdo it.

If i had a bad axle or a motor problem, I'd simply try to find another motor. Its hard to repair things that arent exactly stellar to begin with. I dont think its a motor issue tho, or the symptoms would likely be worse. The axle would likely show itself as the rim would not stay centered and aligned. Bent and cracked axles dont hide themselves for long at all.

Edited May 18, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[vikingto]

Haha "Chinesium"! I like it. Yeah the wheel was already apart before you brought up the shimming. Which the more I think about it while looking at the grooves in the pedal hangers, I think you're correct that shimming may be all it needs. Good looking out Shane, thanks. I'll report back when I get after it tmrw after work. Bedtime.

[vikingto]

So I put the wheel back together, shimmed the pedals with no improvement to the click or clunk. I can really feel it from the center of the wheel when changing directions or starting from a stop. It's something physical from the heart of the wheel, not the brains or nervous system. It would be a bummer if it needs a motor replacement as it's only a year old, could be worse I suppose. I just don't want to have to baby this wheel, knowing that it could get damaged like this again after the motor is replaced.

Really can't wait for my suspension wheel to get here, but in the meantime I'd like to get to the bottom of this. Anyways, thanks for your input.

[.....]

Could it be something so simple as the trolley handle rods clicking about inside the arms? The 18xl doesnt have much room at all around the batteries and not even a boattery box, so I wouldnt think the batteries are moving around. Ghost noises can drive a person nutz for sure. Reminds me of the auto shop days. Someone would bring a car in with a noise and it could take DAYS to finally find the culprit. Ironically, it was typically something simple like a crayon rolling around.

Do you notice any performance or handling changes when this occurs? Can you make it do this when you are not on the wheel and moving it by hand? Is it a noise born from weight on the wheel, or something more akin to movement within? You know, like it does it mostly when you are twisting or asking a powerful change in direction. These motors are big copper wire wound devices, pretty simple. If its something VERY slight, it could always be a small piece of wire. One look at the inside of a motor, and you'll realize how barbaric they are. Imagine an old ass car alternator, but with cheaper parts on the armature.

Did you feel any difference, after shimming the pedals? Just hoping that at least THOSE efforts, weren't for naught.

Don't worry about having to baby the wheel, once you find the issue. I have been gliding around on 2 different 18l's and now an 18xl, for quite a while. I havent noticed any inherent issues that are safety concerns. Of course, this only applies when the wheel is built properly. If you ride off road a lot tho, I can't really vouch for that. Im a street guy. I do ask a lot from my wheels for power and consistency, but I also dont rattle them to bits by matter of course. Fwiw, most axle bolts need about 100ftlbs of torque. Yeah, its a LOT! Be sure to double check the pcb hold down bolts at the top of the wheel, if you havent. WHen a ghost noise occurs in a simple device, sometimes its easier to just go over everything, rather than bother trying to think your way thru it. Remember, NO LOCTITE on the screws that are inside the shell. I think theres 4 of em each side that are at bottoms/pedals. They need be tight, but pay attention for cracking. This probably isnt your issue, as this kind of isue is felt in the pedals.

Edited May 20, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[vikingto]

13 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 

Do you notice any performance or handling changes when this occurs? Handling is fine and so is performance when moving, but initial get-off seems shakey and gives me a lack of confidence (not sure if I can trust the wheel).

Can you make it do this when you are not on the wheel and moving it by hand? No I can't, but it's hard to put my full weight of 220lbs into it through my arms.

Is it a noise born from weight on the wheel, or something more akin to movement within? You know, like it does it mostly when you are twisting or asking a powerful change in direction. When asking for a direction change front to back, or from a standstill. When moving forward I can torque it and jump to a quicker speed without the clonk.

Did you feel any difference, after shimming the pedals? Not yet, but I haven't taken it on the road yet. Just cruising back and forth on the deck to see if the problem was fixed so far. But I will try riding out and about with the shims when it's road worthy again. The pen trick is brilliant btw..

Don't worry about having to baby the wheel, once you find the issue. I have been gliding around on 2 different 18l's and now an 18xl, for quite a while. I havent noticed any inherent issues that are safety concerns. Of course, this only applies when the wheel is built properly. If you ride off road a lot tho, I can't really vouch for that. Im a street guy. I do ask a lot from my wheels for power and consistency, but I also dont rattle them to bits by matter of course. Fwiw, most axle bolts need about 100ftlbs of torque. Yeah, its a LOT! Be sure to double check the pcb hold down bolts at the top of the wheel, if you havent. WHen a ghost noise occurs in a simple device, sometimes its easier to just go over everything, rather than bother trying to think your way thru it. Remember, NO LOCTITE on the screws that are inside the shell. I think theres 4 of em each side that are at bottoms/pedals. They need be tight, but pay attention for cracking. This probably isnt your issue, as this kind of isue is felt in the pedals. No cracks upon close inspection, and every bolt and screw was tightened securely with no loctite on the pedal hanger/shell screws (6 per side).

I'll post a quick video of the sound.

 

[vikingto]

Quick video of wheel sound:

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QDx4rFNeujrEPsaR6

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7 minutes ago, vikingto said:

Quick video of wheel sound:

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/QDx4rFNeujrEPsaR6

I think your original assessment may be correct. It sounds pretty hefty like something in the motor? You've already checked everything else, so....

I guess if it was mine, I'd be pulling the motor and opening it up. Just to check for loose parts in there as well. Not much to go wrong in a motor, but if theres 1 part, theres always at least 1 thing that can go wrong.

Im not an euc tech by any means. If you were closer I'd be up for trying to help you open it and look it over. But alas, you are one o dem yankees... Have you reached out to e-wheels or looked to see how much a motor costs? I aint saying thats what it is, but the price of these parts, does make a difference in how likely we are to try things.

[vikingto]

Ha you mean one of dem damn Yankees! Thanks for the would-be offer to help though. Yeah I'm going to be pulling the motor out today, and I'll post pics of course.

But yeah a new motor at ewheels is $384 after shipping, which is not bad imo. I should probably pull the trigger on it no matter what just to have a backup, but I don't anticipate riding this wheel much once the master gets here. And I like working on these wheels tho, and this is a mystery I really want to figure out (rather be riding of course). 

I emailed ewheels just to confirm it's in stock, as it was listed in their parts archive. Not really sure what that means. Is that a website archive of parts they used to have before the fire, or is it a list of the parts they have in stock? A few months back I thought I read that they weren't selling parts til they get up and going more. But seriously thanks for your help and input on this man.

 

[.....]

1 hour ago, vikingto said:

Ha you mean one of dem damn Yankees! Thanks for the would-be offer to help though. Yeah I'm going to be pulling the motor out today, and I'll post pics of course.

But yeah a new motor at ewheels is $384 after shipping, which is not bad imo. I should probably pull the trigger on it no matter what just to have a backup, but I don't anticipate riding this wheel much once the master gets here. And I like working on these wheels tho, and this is a mystery I really want to figure out (rather be riding of course). 

I emailed ewheels just to confirm it's in stock, as it was listed in their parts archive. Not really sure what that means. Is that a website archive of parts they used to have before the fire, or is it a list of the parts they have in stock? A few months back I thought I read that they weren't selling parts til they get up and going more. But seriously thanks for your help and input on this man.

 

Keep me posted. I wish I could have been more help. I will say that its not always the best idea to keep spare (expensive) parts around. its not common enough for things to go wrong and you happen to have the actual part. Most times when I stock up on stuff, something else breaks or it gets sold. $400 aint the cheapest pill to swallow, so I would def see if you can put an eye on the actual issue. Double and triple check, BEFORE buying that part. Again, keep me posted.

Fwiw, I still ride my 18XL a lot, even tho I have a sherman and an mten. I suspect that you may find the same scenario. Perhaps the master WILL do what the 18xl does, and more. I would more likely count on it doing things the 18xl can't, but the 18xl may still find its way into being used for the things IT is best at. GL on the new wheel. Im always nervous about wheels for the first few months. Such a dice roll but thats the name of the euc game.

Don't forget to order a spare tube (if you aint got one). Put the squeeze on e-wheels when/if you buy a motor, and maybe theyll pity you enough to allow a slight break You can mention me and it won't make a difference, but you can pretend it does.....

Edited May 21, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[vikingto]

That's great advice from someone who's been in the game longer. And the 18XL is such a fun and nimble cruiser, just love it. If it just had a bit more power and speed, and suspension to handle my weight on the hills and potholes in this town (28 mile long town on a hill). I need to be able to cruise at 30 to 35 without the wheel easily cutting out, not to mention blasting up the hills a bit faster.

I imagine I'll be using the 18 XL when I know I'm going to be around more people, like on the lake walk in my town. The sound system really helps warn people that I'm coming, and there's not many potholes there.

And I know it's risky buying a wheel that's not all that proven yet, and it has it's flaws. But it looks like the early peeps with it are figuring it out. Top priorities for me will be upgrading the suspension, and figuring out how to reinforce and protect the top of the wheel better. Oh, and definitely gonna put more of a road/cross tire on it.

Just curious, I can probably guess but why do you prefer to cruise out on your XL vs your Sherman?

Edited May 21, 2022 by vikingto

[.....]

35 minutes ago, vikingto said:

That's great advice from someone who's been in the game longer. And the 18XL is such a fun and nimble cruiser, just love it. If it just had a bit more power and speed, and suspension to handle my weight on the hills and potholes in this town (28 mile long town on a hill). I need to be able to cruise at 30 to 35 without the wheel easily cutting out, not to mention blasting up the hills a bit faster.

I imagine I'll be using the 18 XL when I know I'm going to be around more people, like on the lake walk in my town. The sound system really helps warn people that I'm coming, and there's not many potholes there.

And I know it's risky buying a wheel that's not all that proven yet, and it has it's flaws. But it looks like the early peeps with it are figuring it out. Top priorities for me will be upgrading the suspension, and figuring out how to reinforce and protect the top of the wheel better. Oh, and definitely gonna put more of a road/cross tire on it.

Just curious, I can probably guess but why do you prefer to cruise out on your XL vs your Sherman?

Most of my rides are in a small section of my neighborhood. Or I ride around the airport and random other small areas. I find the 18xl somewhat protects me from myself. Having a conservative top speed and feeling more like a 'mosey' than travel wheel, puts me in a different mindset/mood. I seem to behave more like Im simply riding around and enjoying things at an easy pace, atop the 18xl. When atop my sherman, it feels more like a motorcycle mindset. I cant keep myself from blasting up to higher speeds and riding like I have somewhere to go. I find myself trying to act like I belong on bigger streets among traffic, when in fact, I don't. The sherman is definitely a cruise/range wheel, and I simply don't do that very often. The sherman is also a total pita to load into my car, and its a total pita to carry or trolley. It doesnt have built in music either.

Both are great wheels, I just simply dont find myself needing the bigger, very often. I have a street legal drzSM as it is. I have my Sherman up for sale, tho I'm not convinced I shouldnt just keep it. I trust the 18650 batteries, and it seems they are becoming rarer these days. I can be seen riding all my wheels in my signature vid link..

As for suspension euc. I just simply don't prefer them. Its a complete opinion and its just how I am. I've ridden a couple and I guess I'm already simply old school. I''ve never owned a suspension bicycle or suspension skateboard. I do like suspension on my cars and motorcycles, so I guess its more of what Im used to, than anything logical. I dont chase 'top performance' sports anymore. I drive an old ass car, I sold my sport bikes. Yeah, I guess Im slowing down....

Edited May 21, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[vikingto]

I get the mindset thing. I mean the Sherman looks like it's meant to get somewhere. Fast.

Lol btw awesome yt channel. Immediate subscribe. Just love the fact you're smoking while riding. So classic. Not going to lie, I always have a nicotine pouch in when I ride. Pretty hard for me to smoke a cig with a full face helmet on. Although this new one I got has a nice big mouth vent, so maybe I could pull it off haha.

But seriously beauty area you live in aye. And that paramotor content just really makes it shine. What a great country.

[.....]

10 minutes ago, vikingto said:

I get the mindset thing. I mean the Sherman looks like it's meant to get somewhere. Fast.

Lol btw awesome yt channel. Immediate subscribe. Just love the fact you're smoking while riding. So classic. Not going to lie, I always have a nicotine pouch in when I ride. Pretty hard for me to smoke a cig with a full face helmet on. Although this new one I got has a nice big mouth vent, so maybe I could pull it off haha.

But seriously beauty area you live in aye. And that paramotor content just really makes it shine. What a great country.

thanks. dont forget to stick some aluminum tape (real aluminum for ducting) on the inside of the mouth of the helmet. I smoke in mine from time to time, and the tape has minimized burns.

I agree, I am blessed to be where I am, when I am. Its hard to deny that I have way more than I would need and likely more than I deserve....

[vikingto]

Lol you mean one of dem damn yankees! Thanks for the would be offer tho. Yeah I am definitely pulling the motor apart. I mean just ordering a new one would be the sure-fire fix, but I like working on these and really want to get to the bottom of this (rather be riding of course..). But sure am curious as to what's causing this.

Found the motor on ewheels for $384, but it's in their parts archive and it's not clear if they actually have them in stock since the fire and all. I'd order it right now but want to see if it's fixable first no doubt. Meanwhile I've got a msg into them to confirm if it's in stock or not.

I'll post pics when I open this up. Thanks again for your input man.

[M640x]

After almost 4 years of riding I finally settled on the 18XL as my favorite wheel, In fact I have two of them.  Working on an 18L now for a working parts wheel.

[vikingto]

That's awesome to hear from a more experienced rider. It is such a fun cruiser. My XL is still on the operating table waiting to pull the motor apart. I've had to put it aside to focus on finishing up a couple projects in my house. Been poking around with my 14S when I have a spare few minutes, keep my riding feet in shape and all.

But I'll be cracking that motor open soon, and share what I find is causing that hitch. Hopefully it doesn't require a new motor, but like you say I'll have spare parts if I do need a new motor. And based on what the people are saying, the 18XL has great staying power.