My V11 glitched at full speed and I crashed.

[mrelwood]

51 minutes ago, Tasku said:

When you buy a device and you are told "max speed", it is true that we consider that being safe travel speed, well there be stories about that quite a lot here.

To be fair, on Inmotion and KingSong wheels the max speed is limited by firmware, and already includes a safety margin that is usually hefty enough.

 The no-load speed of the V11 is a few km/h faster than on the 84V MSX, yet the top riding speed of the MSX is often mentioned as 60 km/h. V11 is limited to 50/55 km/h. The V11 has a fair margin, the MSX does not.

Also, when you reach the max speed on a GW, it only beeps at you, which is usually lost in the wind. Nothing stops you from riding faster, all the way up to a zero safety margin. And even above. Ouch.

On GW/BG/Veteran the rider is solely responsible of keeping a sufficient safety margin. On the V11, the firmware does that for you (for most riders and situations). It can be safe to ride at it’s max speed, but of course you have to take into account that the performance is limited at that point, and you can’t ever safely push through or at the tilt-back. And that rider weight and inclines decrease the margin. And that you can’t accelerate hard anywhere near the max speed, on any EUC. Actually, on any vehicle.

Edited May 16, 2022 by mrelwood

[Freeforester]

Hopefully this will not deter you from getting back on a wheel in future, albeit it is a most sobering way to discover how vulnerable we humans are when we find ourselves at the mercy of gravity and laws of physics when speed is a factor in the equation; you are now officially sufficiently both  mature and ‘experienced’ enough to learn from the event, and sufficiently lucky to hopefully make a full recovery; a couple of maxims to bear in mind “going forward” 🤔,  the first from that early Chinese would-be EUC proto-designer, Confucius:

1)  “By three methods we may learn wisdom: First, by reflection, which is noblest; Second, by imitation, which is easiest; and third by experience, which is the bitterest.”

The second,  by US funny guy Steven Wright:

2)”Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it”

The latter tends to reinforce the former, I have found.  I’m sure we can all agree that, prior to any downfall, whether it be self-inflicted or otherwise, there is also more than a grain of truth in the saying that “ignorance is bliss”, which I mean in a benign observation on the travails of life in general, and not in any way personally directed.
 

We live and learn, for the most part.

A cautionary parable:

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Freeforester

[LanghamP]

12 hours ago, onizukagto said:

While as a professional industry/product designer, anything that is considered a load bearing structural features, we do over-engineer features so that it will take the estimated target load and slightly higher. 50% is common but I've seen it done to within 5% (closer you design something to the target load, the cheaper you save on materials etc etc) and "usually" the target load has already factored a 25% tolerance over. But its certainly not a "law", perhaps a common practice depending on the industry and contractoral agreement, especially if human survival depended on it. (I.e. Civil engineering, construction tools, large public transport) 

I have no first-hand experience or knowledge of the 50% over engineering rule; my experience is purely anecdotal with a St Louis Boeing engineer that I used to hang out with. He mentioned that safety margins needed to be at least 50% before deformation, and double before failure, and that previous incidents established these as precedents going forward. What I thought was curious is that while Columbia's engine cracks went well beyond deformation, but since Columbia didn't blow up the new (rewritten) safety margin was pushed upward.

Airline travel in the US is quite safe, EUC travel decidedly less so.

[supercurio]

On 5/13/2022 at 9:03 PM, David 1200 said:

Here’s what happened. I was going to do some speed runs on a empty flat smooth parking lot. A flat concrete desert. Absolutely nothing to interfere with the wheel. On the first speed run and my last speed run. I reached full speed and the wheel tilted back like normal. If anyone’s familiar with the V 11 they know exactly what I’m talking about. Only this time after it tilted back it tilted forward so much so it threw me off the wheel.

So sorry about your crash @David 1200
The outcome sounds rather severe, I wish you the best recovery.

Your detailed description confirms that it is an over-lean, as the wheel ran out ability to accelerate to match your forward lean added to trying to get slightly ahead of you, in order to produce the tilt-back effect.

Many already wrote excellent advice here. A key one IMO is limiting aggressive riding to at higher state of charge. Since you describe reaching max speed often, charging to 100% is a strong recommendation, followed by being more gentle as the state of charge goes down.

I have 2 questions:

Beeps

One thing you did not mention is beeps.
What happened regarding to audio alerts? Did the wheel beep at any point?

The expectations are

• from the wheel: to beep as soon as a low safety margin threshold is reached
• from the rider: to stop accelerating or slow down immediately after hearing the first beep

The main reason tilt-back is not a sufficient safety mechanism alone is that it typically takes some time deploying in order to not be too harsh, and might not be felt during acceleration. Therefore by the time the rider perceives and reacts to it by shifting its center of gravity back, it might already be too late.

It is possible that you got used to only rely on the tiltback as safety mechanism, assuming it is good enough and ignored the wheel beeps/honk.
What do you recall @David 1200?

Firmware version

Earlier V11 firmwares had a safety flaw, which enforced a delay between beeps. This problem was involved in a crash similar to yours in November 2020 by @EUChristian.
After the Inmotion rep. at the time looked into the wheel data, I highlighted the issue then made a video to demonstrate it, and it eventually got solved in a firmware update for the V11.

Just in case, I'm wondering if you flashed the firmware containing the fix on your V11 from last year.

 

On 5/13/2022 at 9:03 PM, David 1200 said:

I still love EUCs and sometime in the future when I order a new wheel (not inmotion) I plan on wearing full body armor. I suggest everyone do the same. Just some elbow pads and knee pads won’t do justice. Specially if you’re going faster than 25. 

Yes, gear with certified padding and abrasion resistance is a must 👍
Even if years of riding experience and hefty headroom on the wheel side help, you never know when a pedestrian or a car will cut right in front of you.

Edited May 16, 2022 by supercurio

[omuretsu]

4 hours ago, supercurio said:

One thing you did not mention is beeps.
What happened regarding to audio alerts? Did the wheel beep at any point?

Yeah this is a great question. Especially on an inmotion wheel, I would expect to hear beeps with a good margin before cutout. And if they're anything like the V10F beeps, they're annoying enough that no one is going to "ride the beeps" unless they disable them/turn the volume way down. Beeps and tiltback are the reason I never really worry about a cutout - as long as you actually respect these warnings rather than powering through.

Although maybe it's possible with extreme leaning to get to a point where the beeps won't be soon enough to prevent a cutout.

[meepmeepmayer]

You can accelerate from no-beeps-yet territory to overlean in a fraction of a second. Beeps don't have enough time to even start then. Let alone the time for you to hear them and react (you generally don't react after one beep).

Beeps (and tiltback and the safety warnings in general) are really only good if you go fast and accelerate slowly, then they tell you when you have reached dangerous speeds. Against fast accelerations that happen faster than these warnings... well.

[EMA]

On 5/13/2022 at 10:20 PM, David 1200 said:

I just went and turned it on. The batteries is at 56%

i don't know how inmotion decrease the limits but basically you have playd with top speed on half battery , keep in mind that

hope you heal fast

as reference an msx 84v at 50% beeps around 50kmh if i remember correctly ( yes i still think gotway have more margin that other "super safety" brands... )

[VikB]

I cringed when I read the OP talk about "speed runs" and then came the not surprising cut out story. Pushing the limits of your wheel might work out a bunch of times, but sooner or later you'll find the limit and exceed it then go down. Frankly that's not an EUC thing. If you push the limits of a sports car or a mountain bike you'll have a problem. The failure mode looks different, but like with an EUC you are risking personal injury and expensive repairs to your equipment.

Because the way that EUCs work is quite different than most of us are used to it's easy to crash on a new wheel without being aware you are undertaking risky behaviour. So it behooves any newbs to do their homework and learn how EUCs work in general and what the performance limits of their particular wheels looks like. There is a ton of info available online for free so there is no excuse for not learning before you ride your wheel.

Once you understand what your wheel is capable of riding well below those limits and your own personal limits is fairly safe. Some might say that's boring and that's fine, but you have to decide how much excitement you want in your life and what you are willing to risk for that excitement. Sitting in an ambulance on the way to the ER you'll be asking yourself was it worth it? Hopefully you have an answer you are happy with.

Edited May 18, 2022 by VikB

[Jswizzy84]

On 5/13/2022 at 8:26 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

People don't know that they don't know.

You missed a really good opportunity to quote Dick Cheney here. Okay actually known unknowns and unknown unknowns was coined by a data scientist at NASA. 

[Esash]

26 minutes ago, Jswizzy84 said:

You missed a really good opportunity to quote Dick Cheney here. Okay actually known unknowns and unknown unknowns was coined by a data scientist at NASA. 

that's rumsfeld not cheney

[Freeforester]

5 hours ago, Esash said:

that's rumsfeld not cheney

 

 

Maybe an example of an ‘unknown known’? 

[meepmeepmayer]

Haha, I was thinking of that phrase, but it seemed a bit convoluted. Also, who likes that guy (whichever of the two it is, I would have to look that up)?

[nebulizer]

On 5/13/2022 at 7:25 PM, David 1200 said:

I agree like I said before there really is not a warning. As far as I know manufactures currently don’t have an explanation on how to avoid cut off and how they can happen. 

I mean, I don't know how anyone can think riding these things doesn't have safety issues. If you were a pilot would you learn about the plane first?

If you ride a Motorcycle at it's max speed shit happens too, this isn't safe. I don't know why you can't just step up and admit you should have done more research into a dangerous hobby.

[M640x]

On 5/13/2022 at 12:03 PM, David 1200 said:

I literally made this account to spread the word for everyone to know. The V 11 is not safe. I’m a very experienced rider and I’ve had mine for over a year. I love the wheel and thought it was the best wheel. I have had zero issues with the wheel the entire time I got it. Brand new out-of-the-box straight from ewheels.com. The crash happened last Saturday. Brooke my hand got crazy road rash on my right knee, right hip, right elbow, and lower left side of my back. The hospital put me in a neck brace and into a splint (now I have a cast) and I got a minor concussion. I was wearing very thick pants and a very thick jacket and a full face helmet. I was able to walk away from the crash but it got severe whiplash and was bruised all over. I emailed inmotion Sunday night and waited till Thursday…. No response so I sent a second email last night and still no response from them. I don’t think they’re taking it very seriously. 

Here’s what happened. I was going to do some speed runs on a empty flat smooth parking lot. A flat concrete desert. Absolutely nothing to interfere with the wheel. On the first speed run and my last speed run. I reached full speed and the wheel tilted back like normal. If anyone’s familiar with the V 11 they know exactly what I’m talking about. Only this time after it tilted back it tilted forward so much so it threw me off the wheel. It made me dismount the wheel. It has never done that….ever. It sent me flying. I was like a ragdoll flipping rolling tumbling everything. I don’t have a car and my only means a transportation to and from work is my wheel. I have over 1500 miles on my v11. I have run diagnostics check on it very regularly and even after the crash it still says everything‘s fine. I don’t know if it’s the miles on the wheel or if it was a glitch and only my wheel was affected but I no longer trust the V 11. The V 11 is completely destroyed. The aluminum saddle on top of it….half of it’s completely broken and separated from the chassis. Some inner plastic walls behind the shocks are cracked and bent. The wheel is in three pieces. At least that’s what I picked up before I left. I’m just here to warn everyone and hopefully prevent what happened to me to happen to other people. I still love EUCs and sometime in the future when I order a new wheel (not inmotion) I plan on wearing full body armor. I suggest everyone do the same. Just some elbow pads and knee pads won’t do justice. Specially if you’re going faster than 25. 

I had one of the first V11 batches to reach the States, possibly the first.  Mine had a cut out at approx. the 7 mile mark into the first ride.  I was going up a 7 degree hill at less than 10 mph.  Ultimately one of the battery packs was dead, showed 0 volts.  I sent it back and got another one sent to me.  I sold the newest one and went to a V10f instead.  I won't own or ride a V11.

[mrelwood]

 

12 hours ago, M640 said:

  I won't own or ride a V11.

Your decision is completely understandable, and a text book example of how the fundamentals of human’s thought processes function.

But no matter how you look at it, any single wheel model has had safety impacting issues. V10F included. To give up on a model because of an issue isn’t a way to avoid issues.

 That said, statistically the wheels haven’t been getting better in the past few years.

[Zeroordie149]

I just got word mine is on the way back from the shop. I’m just getting out the shop too haha, I broke my collar bone in 4 pieces when mine shut off lol. Got a gnarly scar and some cool pics though!

[Freeforester]

Unknown known, or known known? 🤔

[No1up]

Sorry brother. Heal up. 
 

I would suggest never ridding the wheel limit. If it says 31 stay 4-5mph below that or get a larger wheel. EXN is a perfect well priced wheel (from ewheels). You won’t have to worry much about battery or speed limit. 

[M640x]

On 5/23/2022 at 7:30 AM, mrelwood said:

 

Your decision is completely understandable, and a text book example of how the fundamentals of human’s thought processes function.

But no matter how you look at it, any single wheel model has had safety impacting issues. V10F included. To give up on a model because of an issue isn’t a way to avoid issues.

 That said, statistically the wheels haven’t been getting better in the past few years.

There have been a lot of issues with the V11 and V12.  I'm a very big fan of Inmotion but until they get it sorted I won't own one beyond the V10f and that's mostly common sense.  Maybe that could be looped into human thought process as well lol.