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S20 S22 Spring Wt - softer springs for me!


Elliott Reitz

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Invitation:  Document your spring changes and thoughts on it!

My spring (thread starter)

Old spring:  I know someone said changing the geometry changes the spring softness but I don't believe it does.  It does raise/lower the body position to where the spring rests.  I lowered mine as a 1st thing to try.  Tightened the preload too (that helped more per the non-linear concept).  But no matter how hard I jumped on it I couldn't move the rubber stopper more than about 1" out of supposedly 3" possible (2.25" with the lowered geometry).  

New spring:  Well the one I bought was larger - had to be cut to fit length and width is 1/4" wider, BUT IT WORKS!  In these vids, I document the benefit via travel while jumping and finally going for a trail ride (roots included).  

1.  The S20 Free Travel Works!  

2. Spring change stationary test results and discussion: 

3. Validation (a real ride with it)

 

 

NL Susp.png

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Referenced from the "Confirmed" thread:  Is it really still "confirmed"? I have deposits on both S20 and Begode suspended speed wheel 1st and haven't heard updates in months.  So its nice to have acquired one of the prototypes 2nd hand. 

The images: Here's a close up image of where the washer is after today's ride (3rd vid above).  At the bottom is the brown tape marking the travel limit (in low geometry bolt position).  So there's still about 3/4" shock-travel unused today. Assuming 5/3 ratio that's over 1" travel unused today (in last vid above).  

 

 

Edited by Elliott Reitz
-pics
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The 350 lbs spring arrived today.  I LOVE it!  Its the one I'm keeping.  

It was 190x55. Figuring I'd want some preload I tried to rig a spring compressor for it but after an hour of putzing around with muffler clamps and car-spring compressors I gave up and just cut about an inch off of it (so its about 170mm vs stock spring was 160mm / 6").  Then installing for permanent, I found some velcro-tape to wrap/fill the gap between the coil and the shock near the end that's cut.  

++ I like this 350 the best already! I get way more travel for small impacts than I did with the 550 or especially the 750. It gets me much more use out of the linear-range of the suspension and in the higher compression, the travel ratio reduces to 1.1:1 also meaning I don't think I will ever manage to bottom it out. I have more preload and sag than the 750 or 550 springs had, and that's the soft-spot where I ride. Plus that rubber - that's a bottom-out buffer too. I have the geometry back on the higher setting (but more like 1/2" to 1" sag at the top with best hand-tightened preload (shock-tools don't fit))

Edited by Elliott Reitz
+pic ++txt
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I'm so thankful you're posting these experiments because I've been pretty certain I'd be needing a spring with less compression (I'm qualified to do the 'official' marketing range test). It sounds like the stock spring was 160 mm x 55 mm? I'm hoping that's correct—I'm going to start hunting down a selection of lighter springs. I know DNM sells them out of TW, but am hoping to find one that came on a MTB/E-Bike and was switched out.

Anyway, keep up the reports! And I do hope you've updated your firmware!

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3 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I'm so thankful you're posting these experiments because I've been pretty certain I'd be needing a spring with less compression (I'm qualified to do the 'official' marketing range test). It sounds like the stock spring was 160 mm x 55 mm? I'm hoping that's correct—I'm going to start hunting down a selection of lighter springs. I know DNM sells them out of TW, but am hoping to find one that came on a MTB/E-Bike and was switched out.

Anyway, keep up the reports! And I do hope you've updated your firmware!

Yes, stock spring was 160x55mm OD. This is the one I cut too short today.  It comes 190mm but I think it would be best melted by torch at about 175-180. So I just ordered another.  I'm gonna put alot of pre-load on it too (just cranked up what I got - till the new parts arrived).  

KKE 350LBS Rear Shock Absorber Spring For Surron Light Bee X Segway X160 Skocks | eBay

I also bought some real hockey pucks for the sliders/stand on the back, and some longer-better bolts for the rear-pin (and a box full in case I bend them.  :D 

 

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20220409_073752c.JPG

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Nice. Thx. One of the reviews of the DNM-RCP2 says that Fox springs will fit—of course Fox makes a gajillion springs. Fox's inner diameter seems to be 35-36.5 mm, would that fit? You wouldn't know the stroke would you? (the problem with being the only consumer with this wheel is you'll get all the questions, right?)

What is that sticking out in the last picture? The top suspension 'bumper'?

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25 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Nice. Thx. One of the reviews of the DNM-RCP2 says that Fox springs will fit—of course Fox makes a gajillion springs. Fox's inner diameter seems to be 35-36.5 mm, would that fit? You wouldn't know the stroke would you? (the problem with being the only consumer with this wheel is you'll get all the questions, right?)

What is that sticking out in the last picture? The top suspension 'bumper'?

Stoke should be 3".  The 55mm springs are within a couple wraps of velcro from the main shaft.  I did have a wider (60 to 65mm OD) spring on it that worked fine (above).  I'm gonna try the 190mm again with spring compressors that will actually work.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/203862049227?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

What is that sticking out in the last picture? The top suspension 'bumper'?

That's the rubber that sticks up from the wheel-frame to buffer it from bottoming out.  Useless!  LOL  I removed the other side since it had broken from the bottom and was just sitting there, easy enough to slide on out.  Same with one of them in the back.  :D

Edited by Elliott Reitz
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So I just now installed the 190mm x 55mm 350 lbs spring.  Its WONDERFUL!!!   It was a PITA to install without cutting it.  I used a pair of spring compressors and squeezing.  After install, 2nd vid is test ride.  No more clunking sound either (seems it was fender with crooked spring somehow).  

 

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Conclusions:

The ultimate proof is in the ride.  This weekend I did some muddy trails with my dogs, that featured a few speed bursts (up to 25 mph w/ dogs = fast for dogs).  My legs had a workout and the suspension was exercised as much as I ever intend to push it for travel and shock absorption.  So this picture "validates" the spring weight requirement change (from biggest rider to best spring for my weight and use-case (trails)).  Having also considered the 5:3" travel ratio and the non-linear aspect of the travel range, softness requires max "pre-load" with minimum spring weight lbs/in. 

Using trial/error, stock 750lbs was too stiff, 500lbs was still too stiff but the size {e: length was about 170mm}  had more preload by default... and was a huge improvement (70% of total result).  

The 1st 350 lbs 190mm spring was cut to 170mm and didn't work so well till I dialed up maximum preload.  Somewhere in that timeframe the clunking noise began and to date seems most related to something knocking the fender but out of sight with flash-light.  

The 2nd 350lbs 190mm was installed with spring compressors to the maximum lenght that can fit to the shock (about 170mm or 1" compression so about 400lbs on the spring compressors, in video above).  

Now, its after the weekend riding with the rubber stopper pre-set during install above vid with a curb-shot and a pot hole:  Now after all weekend it still hasn't moved much further.  And FWIW, here's a pic of the shock of the S18 where the wear-zone and band max are about the same in the travel range (3/4 travel "used", 1/2 travel "used alot"). {e+: The S18 shock was pumped to 200 upper, 100 lower about 500 miles and 1 year ago.  Pressure check to upper chamber confirmed still solid 200 a month or 2 back}

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20220418_160309r.jpg

Edited by Elliott Reitz
{e} clarify
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  • 1 month later...

So I powered up the new defective S22 today and rode it with stock shock (sucks).  Then changed to the Rockshock air-shock.  That's 100x better.  As for comparison to the 350 lbs spring on the stock shock, I will have to do more direct comparison to comment if one is better than the other.  

 

20220527_140526.cJPG.JPG

Edited by Elliott Reitz
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1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

changed to the Rockshock air-shock.

Which one did you change it to, size and model ? Very curious to hear about your impressions on it. 

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16 hours ago, Mrd777 said:

Which one did you change it to, size and model ? Very curious to hear about your impressions on it. 

Rockshox Deluxe Select+ MTB Mountain Bike Debon Air Rear Shock 230 x 57.5mm

{+} I've only ridden with it once, and that's the vid in this post.  It was pumped to 250psi. 

16 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

I believe that stock shock size is 240x76(metric), 9.5x3(standard). Only Rock Shox that I’ve found in that size is the Vivid air. Fox has float x2.

Yes that's correct!

Impressions:

Stock: 750lbs spring is way too stiff.  Painful.  Sure I can make it depress about 1/4 of the way on my biggest stuf.

Stock w/ 350 lbs spring is nince.  So is the air shock.  They're both about the same feel (softer, and I can't bottom either of them no matter how hard I try to pounce on it).  

When I figure out how to charge the battery I will swap this one out with the 350lbs spring to figure out which I like better.  They're close enough to be hard to tell.  I'm still only using about 1/2 of my available travel in either case.  With the air shock I can try more/less PSI.  On the spring shock I can add a ton of preload to it when its off to see if that really works.  So suffice it to say, an expensive air shock is a shortcut to using spring compressors to get a 350lbs spring installed. 

 

 

20220527_095538cr.jpg

Edited by Elliott Reitz
+impressions,pic, psi
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  • 3 weeks later...

Thank you for this info.

What is the bottle neck if I’d like to get a comfortable an floaty ride for traveling (no stairs or jumps for me, just gravel roads and occasionally bad tarmac)? Stiction in the sliders or the stock spring? And will lower lbs spring get me that comfy feel or should it be air shock? Spring should have less stiction, right?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/15/2022 at 3:40 AM, Elliott Reitz said:

So I just now installed the 190mm x 55mm 350 lbs spring.  Its WONDERFUL!!!   It was a PITA to install without cutting it.  I used a pair of spring compressors and squeezing.

Can’t these be exchanged without special tools? I’m wondering why installing a smaller than stock spring as so difficult?

I’m planning to buy this spring, maybe even in 250 lbs:

https://www.bike-components.de/en/RockShox/Steel-Coil-for-Kage-Vivid-240-mm-76-mm-p37183/

I’m thinking this model would fit. Hopefully without special tools. 
 

edit: just found out about spring installation tools. Better order one of those also. 

Edited by UniVehje
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16 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

I’m thinking this model would fit. Hopefully without special tools.

@Elliott Reitz had to use a compression tool to get a 190 mm long spring to fit, so 240 mm is likely to be "far too long". You'll effectively be preloading it over 50 mm and running the risk of coil lock because you've already consumed 20% of the spacing between coils. I'm going to wait until I see/make a measurement of the unsprung length of the stock spring before ordering. I'm going to try to match the overall unsprung length and the coil-to-coil spacing of the stock spring, if I can't get exact I'll go slightly shorter length and wider spacing.

A shorter spring or an exact match should not require special tools to install!

Edited by Tawpie
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1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

@Elliott Reitz had to use a compression tool to get a 190 mm long spring to fit, so 240 mm is likely to be "far too long". You'll effectively be preloading it over 50 mm and running the risk of coil lock because you've already consumed 20% of the spacing between coils. I'm going to wait until I see/make a measurement of the unsprung length of the stock spring before ordering. I'm going to try to match the overall unsprung length and the coil-to-coil spacing of the stock spring, if I can't get exact I'll go slightly shorter length and wider spacing.

A shorter spring or an exact match should not require special tools to install!

My understanding is that this is not the length of the coil itself but the length between the eyelets. Meaning 240x76 is the correct size for the shock. 240mm between eyelets and 76mm travel in the shock. Definitely needs a tool to install in any case but it’s the right size. 
 

Edit: actually I’m not completely sure about the above. The stock shock is 240x75 but the spring might still have to be measured for the shock. 
https://hub.chainreactioncycles.com/buying-guides/components/rear-shock-springs-buying-guide/

This is what I’m trying to figure out. There’s very little information available about the coil sizes. 
 

This video shows changing the coil without any tools. Can someone measure the length of the original spring and confirm what size to get?

Edited by UniVehje
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33 minutes ago, UniVehje said:

There’s very little information available about the coil sizes.

So true. It's very difficult to do while waiting for almost a full year :angry:, but it is surely smarter to first try it stock, then if it needs adjustment having in hand a coil that fits will preventreduce mistakes. I got an itchy trigger finger and ordered springs—they're clearly way too short... I hope I've learned my lesson. Probably not.

Edited by Tawpie
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2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

but it is surely smarter to first try it stock, then if it needs adjustment having in hand a coil that fits will preventreduce mistakes.

You are correct. But I’m starting my vacation when I get the wheel and will have time to tinker and experiment. I’m expecting the 750 lbs spring to be too stiff for me. So I want to go very low to feel the extreme and then I’ll be wiser to find the right spring. The spring calculator gives me even lower value but I think bicycles are too different. We must find it by experimenting. I’ll report my findings here. 

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