Instantly Face Planted in the road after Lift Sensor Malfunction - GoPro filmed - Kingsong 16X

[LightWave]

The Lift Sensor on the KS 16X has a very dangerous design flaw. Any solutions found for this other than disabling the Sensor? 

I was thinking about adding some silicone around the blue wires located under the handles? My guess is that's part of the Lift Sensor system but not sure how it all works?

I emailed KS about this and they said to contact my local dealer. They should really listen to the riders and fix this issue in the factory because  could have busted my face today but lucky I had a full helmet on. It happened so fast, just one beep and then instantly smashed face first into the road. I walked away a little sore but totally fine, just had to disable to Lift Sensor and carried on ridding.

I have a GoPro video of the fall and I will upload it to this thread after work tomorrow or this weekend sometime.

[UniVehje]

Were you standing still or riding very slowly when this happened? The lift sensor should not activate at speed. If you were riding normally when it happened, there's probably a more serious problem with your wheel. Please be careful and don't ride it before you know what happened. I very much doubt that it was the lift sensor in case you were at speed when this happened. 

[Chriull]

12 minutes ago, ElectroCycles said:

The Lift Sensor on the KS 16X has a very dangerous design flaw. Any solutions found for this other than disabling the Sensor? 

I was thinking about adding some silicone around the blue wires located under the handles? My guess is that's part of the Lift Sensor system but not sure how it all works?

Like the power button the lift sensor does not and cannot cut off the motor - it's just a button which sends a signal to the mikrocontroller. So this function (spin off) is disabled while riding (the wheel spins).

Afair with the KS18XL there were problems reported with electromagnetic interferences through the lift sensor wires which messed up the microcontroller control flow. Or something alike - did not follow this in each detail...

18 minutes ago, ElectroCycles said:

I have a GoPro video of the fall and I will upload it to this thread after work tomorrow or this weekend sometime.

Looking forward watching your video! FYI - videos cannot be uploaded here (space is very limited), but youtube (?vimeo, etc ?)links get embedded here!

Great you were nicely protected and nothing serious happened to you!

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

1 hour ago, ElectroCycles said:

The Lift Sensor on the KS 16X has a very dangerous design flaw. Any solutions found for this other than disabling the Sensor? 

I was thinking about adding some silicone around the blue wires located under the handles? My guess is that's part of the Lift Sensor system but not sure how it all works?

Can you please elaborate on what the design flaw is? The 16X has a sealed lift switch and has done so for some time.

1 hour ago, UniVehje said:

Were you standing still or riding very slowly when this happened? The lift sensor should not activate at speed. If you were riding normally when it happened, there's probably a more serious problem with your wheel. Please be careful and don't ride it before you know what happened. I very much doubt that it was the lift sensor in case you were at speed when this happened. 

Echoing this. If the unit cut out on you while moving it's not likely to be lift switch or power switch related.

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

Echoing this. If the unit cut out on you while moving it's not likely to be lift switch or power switch related.

Given this, if it did cut off on you while you were moving slowly on a level surface and not doing your best Michael Jackson lean, I wouldn't ride it until you can determine what needs to be fixed. Because said quite simply "it shouldn't do that". Since it does, something needs to be fixed.

As an aside, having separately broken both lift switches in my 16X (there is one on each side and they are a bit fragile), if either one is broken and doesn't actuate, that effectively disables the lift switch feature. How'd they break? First one due to being too rough with it during disassembly, it's inside of a literal black balloon and I didn't know that at the time. Second one broke all on its own, but I'm chalking that up to a delayed failure due to the same rough handling that broke the first one. If you don't have to, don't remove the trolley handle and if you do, be very very careful during reassembly.

Edited March 17, 2022 by Tawpie

[alcatraz]

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

doing your best Michael Jackson lean

That's how I ride!

[Roadpower]

The lift switch on my 18XL became over sensitive and as such I grew to not trust it so I disabled it. That is a problem for quick transitions when I need to carry at stairs. To my senses it meant that I had to open the wheel to check the switch for dirt or debris or adjustment. However the switch has such a sensitive feel to it I suspect that adjustment may not be possible.

Also keep in mind that about two years ago the 18XL had a known issue which was resolved in a firmware update but prior to my updating the wheel it did cut a few times at very low speed while I was learning to ride. That experience was particularly bad timing because when you're learning to ride you are in a phase of building confidence. I was ultimately able to get over it but it left me concerned enough to keep the lift sensor turned off now that it exhibited behaviors of over sensitivity.

[LightWave]

Video of crash uploaded! Let me know how to fix the lift switch if you have an idea. Thank you
 

 

[alcatraz]

I know it sounds like a bad solution but you could just disable it. 

I went from a wheel with to a wheel without, and I thought it was going to be a problem. In fact the opposite happened.

I notice that it taught me how to go over and down stairs without cutting off the motor. After getting good at it I realized that it's actually easier than carrying the wheel. 

I can now easier get around public transportation with the wheel. I feel my body/back almost never has to carry the full weight but only contract a bit to nudge the wheel past the steps.

[alcatraz]

Side note. If the handle is low it's going to be less convenient. On a Tesla v1 it's relatively tall = OK.

[Roadpower]

I haven't opened my wheel to see arrangement of the switch on the 18XL but I believe that it is identical to the 16X. I've also looked at pictures of the switches, they appear to be identical to me with the exception of the wiring arrangement.

https://www.euco.us/collections/king-song-18xl-parts/products/ks-16x-mechanical-switch-board

https://www.euco.us/collections/ks-16x-parts-online-listing/products/ks-16x-mechanical-switch-board-1

I suspect what is going on here is that the switch being used is probably not ideal or is not resilient for this application. A large part of the reason why I say this is because the way the movement feels when lifting the handle to activate the switch. My switch does still work but it is very sensitive because of such a tiny amount of handle movement involved. This is why when I encountered the issue I elected to disable the switch because it is a sensitive mechanical issue in nature.

And to be clear this is not the same issue when I first got the wheel that had a firmware issue that would activate the cutoff. As I said in the first post, that issue was rectified in a firmware update.

So in my mind the options here are to open and inspect the switch to see if an adjustment can be made and or if the switch has to be replaced. Due to the design arrangement I suspect that any such fix is going to end up being temporary. What this all might require is the installation of another switch through the shell of the wheel in a best possible spot.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, ElectroCycles said:

Video of crash uploaded! Let me know how to fix the lift switch if you have an idea. Thank you
 

 

Looks like you were just about to get enough speed for the switch to be disabled when it cut out on you.

 I don’t remember exactly what the switch mechanism is like on the 16X, but the magnetic switch on the S18 does turn overly sensitive as well if the sensor is pulled too far from the handle rod. I would imagine that a bad install on the 16X could be the cause here as well.

 

Ps. Totally unrelated, but I wouldn’t dare to ride that close to a row of parked cars… Way too many chances of careless people jumping out of their cars, or suddenly accelerating in front of you, or kids and dogs running from between the cars etc… One of the first rules of safe riding is to ride like no-one would be able to see you.

[Tawpie]

Wow! That sucks. It beeped once as it was dropping you (one beep is normal when the lift switch activates). I don't know if 1 beep happens with other conditions or if it's unique to lift switch. It'll usually beep twice when the lift switch disengages and motor control is restored, I didn't hear that in the video but clearly it wasn't balancing. Maybe when you power cycled it everything reset.

 

I'd take it apart and see if anything looks odd. The lift switches are inside of balloons at the bottom of each trolley handle rod. They're exceptionally fragile so be careful. In order to shut the wheel off, the switch has to close (it's normally open). You might have something that closed the switch or shorted the switch circuit just as you were getting going and it had to think you weren't moving. If you are moving, it's supposed to ignore the switch, but what constitutes "moving" only KS knows.

What firmware are you on?

Oh... the lift switch assemblies were changed as time went along. There's a v1.0 and v1.2 (I think it's 1.2) and they are not interchangeable. 1.0 is for early wheels and its board is a bit thicker than 1.2... a 1.0 board won't fit into the slot for a newer wheel that's supposed to have 1.2.

No harm disabling the lift switch though. You'll learn to remember to turn it off before you pick it up... the skid mark that won't come off the carpet is a constant reminder.

Edited March 20, 2022 by Tawpie

[Tawpie]

One other thing to check. At the bottom of each trolley handle pole there's a screw that goes through a spring to provide tension for the handle release button. This spring also pushes on the metal plate that's used to actuate the lift switch. Check that screw tension. I don't know where it needs to be set but if it's too loose I can imagine the metal plate being loose enough to trip the switch. I think mine are screwed in about half way so the button is 'firm' but not difficult to push.

[enaon]

4 hours ago, ElectroCycles said:

Video of crash uploaded! Let me know how to fix the lift switch if you have an idea. Thank you

not a fix per se, but this is what I use:
The switch on mine works reliably, but I do not like it enabled most of the time, so I have an option on the watch, if selected the switch is auto disabled on connect and enabled on disconnect. 
 

 

[Paradox]

The lift switch on my 18XL is so sensitive I have disabled it in the app.  I can roll the wheel while holding the handle, not lifting, and sometimes the lift sensor would activate.  It was so troubling for me I decided not to trust this would not happen while actually on the wheel and I disabled the lift sensor.  Just starting from a complete stop could jostle the wheel just enough to make it dangerous.

[LightWave]

13 hours ago, alcatraz said:

I notice that it taught me how to go over and down stairs without cutting off the motor.

Interesting how do you bring it up stairs bounce the tire off the last one or? Any videos on this idea?

[LightWave]

5 hours ago, Paradox said:

The lift switch on my 18XL is so sensitive I have disabled it in the app.  I can roll the wheel while holding the handle, not lifting, and sometimes the lift sensor would activate.  It was so troubling for me I decided not to trust this would not happen while actually on the wheel and I disabled the lift sensor.  Just starting from a complete stop could jostle the wheel just enough to make it dangerous.

That's a good idea yeah I don't think I can ever use the lift switch ever again... If the switch malfunctions while when going faster I could be in a much worse situation. I'm really disappointed in Kingsong for not fixing this issue because it can be really dangerous for drivers or anyone around the possible crash!

[Roadpower]

10 minutes ago, ElectroCycles said:

I'm really disappointed in Kingsong for not fixing this issue because it can be really dangerous for drivers or anyone around the possible crash!

It doesn't activate at speed, I've never seen it do that. It only ever happened at walking speed. However even so it is very disconcerting.

[MetricUSA]

I keep a tether on my 18xl handle, which also works as a Killswitch if I ditch it...

My first real road ride was in windy conditions and also holding a shopping bag wrong, I accidentally pulled the tether and instantly dropped the wheel....oops...

Edited March 20, 2022 by MetricUSA

[redsnapper]

it would make sense for the logic in the firmware to check for some max rotation speed  ( or some other critical data point ) before liftswitch can be logically engaged ( regardless of physical status of switch ). can u can confirm the liftswitch does not hv a firmware based over-ride ( set footplates on blocks with slight incline then test engaging liftswitch at carious speeds )...

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

53 minutes ago, redsnapper said:

it would make sense for the logic in the firmware to check for some max rotation speed  ( or some other critical data point ) before liftswitch can be logically engaged ( regardless of physical status of switch ). can u can confirm the liftswitch does not hv a firmware based over-ride ( set footplates on blocks with slight incline then test engaging liftswitch at carious speeds )...

Lift switches on KS wheels do not cause the wheel to stop spinning unless it's at <4KM/H.

[LightWave]

UPDATE: re-enabled the "Lift Switch" works again perfectly fine but still I disabled it again. I was just curious if was really that glitchy to disable it self

[alcatraz]

5 hours ago, ElectroCycles said:

Interesting how do you bring it up stairs bounce the tire off the last one or? Any videos on this idea?

When going up steps you need to unweigh the tire exactly when it hits the step. 

The force amount and angle depends on the height of the step you're trying to get over. For lower edges you don't need to unweigh at all. You just put forward pressure and the wheel climbs itself.

It helps if you run a lower tire pressure like me too. The tire gets more traction trying to get over the edge, and you need to put in less upwars force.

In the beginning it feels like crap because you'll be unweighing the wheel too much. When you get good at it you unweigh it less and less until you're maybe just carrying about 30% of its weight to get up normal stairs, curbs, obstacles etc. 

I can now keep up with rush hour passenger flows at the train station and I can do this after a long day at work when I'm tired.

Should I need to get up a low wall I can now do that too because I've practiced the angles the wheel needs to be kept at to stop spinning like crazy. It means if I need to get over a 1 meter high wall I could pick up the wheel and put it on the edge, without the wheel going nuts. It's very fast because there's no cut-off time or re-balancing time.

[Roadpower]

12 minutes ago, ElectroCycles said:

UPDATE: re-enabled the "Lift Switch" works again perfectly fine but still I disabled it again. I was just curious if was really that glitchy to disable it self

It works but the glitch is that it is over sensitive, so that even slight handle jiggling causes the switch to activate the cutout. It is better in my opinion to just disable it until it can be made to work properly which means that you have to open the wheel to inspect/clean/repair/adjust/replace the switch.