Kingsong S20 vs Veteran Sherman- What are your thoughts?

[Thatmustache]

Hey Everyone! For the past 3 years I have ridden my Kingsong 18XL everywhere and anywhere. I would say I've become somewhat of an advanced rider over the 3 years with that wheel. It is the wheel that I learned to ride on, and truth be told I haven't touched any other EUC's ever aside from my 18XL. That is until yesterday!

Yesterday I payed a visit to an EUC distributor and touched another EUC for the first time! In fact not only did I get to touch them, I was able to ride SIX new wheels! 😎 It might sound kind of funny to some of you, but I was like a kid in a candy shop!

The wheels I tried for the first time were- M10, V8, 16X, S18, the Sherman, and the S20.

Obviously coming from nothing but an 18XL, the Sherman and the S20 stole the show for me.

So to get to the point of my question- I rode the S20 for maybe 30- 40 minutes (wow what a good looking wheel), and the Sherman for about 1 hour.

My thoughts after riding these wheels- I expected more from the S20. It hurt my legs quite a bit (probably just the pads) but I had a hard time feeling in control of the wheel. I also thought the suspension would have been a little better. I did play around with the suspension settings, but thought it would have been a little bit better. Granted, the wheel felt quite nimble for its size. The quality of the wheel is worrisome. While visiting the show room, another customer checking out the S20 broke the power button right off the wheel. We were still able to turn it on using a pin 📌 though lol.

In regards to the Sherman- I expected good things from it, and it gave me more than I expected! I went in fully thinking that the S20 would give the Sherman a run for its money, but I found myself soon drooling over the Sherman with its stable and strong stance. With what felt like endless power it became an extension of my body very easily. Yes the bumps were a bit harsher without suspension. But not as big of a factor as I thought it would be. Seated riding was a breeze, and I love the idea of a bigger battery (something that concerned me about the S20).

So after riding all these wheels (with most of my time on the S20 and Sherman) I feel like I'm leaning more towards buying a Sherman over an S20.

I wanted to know what your thoughts are comparing these 2 wheels! For those who have tried the S20 and or Sherman. Yeah I would rather own both, but for me that's not an option unfortunately 😕

FULL DISCLAIMER! I only had under 2 hours combined with the 2 wheels. My opinions could change if I had more time. These are just my initial thoughts.

Please let me know what you think! Thanks 😊 

 

[Big Bad Ron]

Hey your from Canada, I thought I should say HI.

I have 4 wheels, but the Sherman is my favourite.

 

[Mango]

Currently most of the hype/reviews surrounding the S20 are coming from distributors... so no bias there (haha)

I have Sherman, Inmotion V10F, Kingsong S18, Kingsong 16x, Kingsong 14d, and Gotway mten3. By far, the Sherman is my most ridden and cherished wheed having put over 16,000 kms on it. Yeah, worth every penny I paid by this point. Everything about Sherman is just amazing. Parts are easy to find, and servicing the wheel is very easy once you do it a couple of times. I love this wheel.

It's a mature product now so most of the kinks have been worked out, like the rim and BMS/side panel issues. The board, batteries and motor are solid.

S20 won't be a viable wheel in my eyes until SS 2023. Going to have to wait for more unbiased reviews before I commit. However, the Begode Master looks like a solid wheel and that's the wheel I'm leaning towards.

[Tawpie]

I own neither... but I know a lot of Sherman owners and have an S20 on pre-order!

As always, it comes down to what you want to be doing—which based on what you said, you want the Sherman! (you mentioned range, and there's no way getting around the size advantage of the Sherman battery)

The S20 is an off road wheel first, the Sherman is a fast, long range road machine. Yes, the Sherman does go off road but think "fire roads" more than rock gardens. Yes, the S20 is going to be a fine road wheel (potholes etc.), but it's 18XL range and while it's fast-enough-to-get-hurt it is not as fast as you can get by a long shot. Unless you absolutely must have suspension (general comfort, knees, back, terrain), there's little point in paying the range penalty.

@Ginger On Wheels just posted an S20 range test/first impressions that you should check out. He's a long time Sherman rider, so his perspective is pretty solid for the comparison (in my opinion anyway!). He is also an avid 'other PEV' rider, so he brings that to the table as well.

Have fun with your new wheel, that's the whole point isn't it?

Edited March 5, 2022 by Tawpie

[Planemo]

As a Sherman owner, it's amazing. Buy one.

Seriously, theres not a lot to dislike about the Sherman. It's proven, reliable, rides extremely smoothly, is well balanced, has a small form factor relative to it's range, the display is really handy and rides great seated if thats something you like. I honestly can't say anything bad about it except maybe the rear running light could be brighter (being really picky here) but the light is nice and bright when braking which is handy during group rides/general road safety. Yes there are still potential issues with rims but my V2 (black button/wider rim/higher pedals) has had ZERO issues with the rim and I only run 25psi.

It will never really compare with a suspension wheel though. Thats just the way it is. Apples and oranges.

[BKW]

I was super-hyped about the S20. I do not own the wheel, but after seeing a lot of reviews since it came out, here are my thoughts:

• Cheap plastic body will break easy, especially lights, stand, and front bumper (although KS said they will make a stronger front bumper)
• Suspension is supposedly the best on the market, and if I were to bet, it will be better than the Begode Master as well
• Around 27 miles range if you are riding it hard (confirmed by Speedy Feet), and advertised range is accurate riding it "normally" (range is still being tested by new owners)
• Very smooth ride
• Speed is good considering it's a KS, with 45 mph (confirmed?)

The only thing I want about the KS20 is the suspension. Other stats can be exceeded by other wheels on the market. Personally, since my only wheel is the 16X, my next wheel would be something with a larger wheel size and faster speed, mainly. If I'm going to get another wheel it's going to be one of the best on the market and different than the 16X. The Sherman Max ticks a lot of boxes off my decision making process. With the Max, it's said to be a very stable wheel, smooth ride, it's range is one of the best on the market, SPEED is one of the fastest on the market (45 mph) and negligible to me when compared to the fastest wheel coming out (Begode Master @ 55mph), the Max will be version 4 so it's been tested and modified overtime to be reliable (unlike KS20, Master, etc), stronger rim has been confirmed (previous version weak point), confirmed to be probably the best EUC ever made by riders, the few riders who now own the Max says the torque is improved due to upgraded power (previous version, torque was weak point) and comparable to the Commander, etc.

With all that said, the Max, in my mind, will be much better than the KS20. The only thing I'd pick the KS20 over the Max would be for the suspension since the Max does not have it. Pedal clearance is much better on KS20, but that's negligible to me as well -- I'm not sure how much better the Max pedal clearance has improved since the older version. However, the KS20 is still an amazing wheel considering many things I've likely not even covered, but in my mind the Max is better, and as such, more expensive.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by bkw

[Thatmustache]

Thanks for all the feedback! It seems like most people are partial to the Sherman, and really only have good things to say about it! The range is a big thing for me!

I just watched the range test of the S20 by Ginger on Wheels. 2 things to note from it- seeing as I only rode it for just over half an hour, it's probably true that it would take around 100 miles or so for me to adjust to the wheel and feel comfortable riding it. And the other thing is despite it performing well once you figure the wheel out, it won't live up to your expectations if you're wanting something with a good range. (good being more than my 18XL).

It seems that either the Sherman or the Sherman Max may be calling my name!

[Forwardnbak]

That all settles is then.

Both. 

[.....]

Im a pretty negative guy. I havent much bad to say about the Sherman. It (v1) also took some finalizing with replacing all the screws, replacing the rim, putting a bluetooth module in it and protecting motor wires. NO first release euc's seem to be good to go. The Sherman needed small things, my s18 needed less design flaws. 

I don't go on long rides, but the overhead and smoothness of the Sherm is great. Its still a mediocre built plastic vehicle, but it definitely keeps up with euc standards. I too had an 18L for my first wheel and still own an 18XL. Even with the sherman, I ride the 18xl quite a bit. THeres no getting around the fact that the sherman is heavy as hell to lift into a car or up stairs. I'd say my 18xl is like my honda civic that I ride around when its a lazy or short ride. My sherman is more like the 4-door sedan. It rides well, but sometimes just a bit much to bother with on short outings.  I've a few vids of the wheels I've owned and ridden.  18XL, Sherman and MTen, make a potent trio. As for trust... well, I trust the 18XL the most. None of my wheels have let me down, but theres just something about the XL that seems right. Of my 3 wheels, the Sherman is most likely to be damaged in a crash. My mtens and 18xl arrived w/o needing anything tended to. Both those models are long in the tooth, so first release worries didnt apply.

I havent much faith in the newer wheels KS has been putting out. I am waiting to see how the s20 goes, but theres no way in hell I'd trade out my sherman for one. Until the s20 lives thru a few revisions and has a cpla years of PROVEN, I'm not gambling on it. I gambled on the s18 and lost. I gambled on the Sherman and won(funny I consider it a win, simply because the problems COULD be "easily" fixed). 50/50 for my last two wheels. Its not my wallet that worries about buying an s20. I simply am not ready to be disappointed again, so I'll just wait and let others roll those dice.

I do think we are comparing apples to oranges tho. If you dont have a NEED for suspension, don't bother. NO reason to overcomplicate and compromise things that you don't truly need for your style of riding. Not to mention, theres a drastic range difference between the two wheels, but NOT a drastic weight difference. Tbh, Im closer to buying the V11 now that I've seen the s18 and s20. Im merely waiting to test ride one first and dig around to see what/if changes have been made to the v11 to mitigate the various issues it had upon release. Fwiw, Im about to the point I wont even claim to ride off-road at all. My old knees dont like it and I ride for joy, not to create work. For me, the V11 looks like a streetable suspension. The s20 looks like its more offroad geared, but looks have been deceiving. I'd imagine the first thing I'd do with an s20 (aside from comb thru it and fix it while putting in missing screws) is to remove those pads and design some to fit my needs. Second thing I'd do is take a picture of it, before it fell over and something broke.

Edited March 5, 2022 by ShanesPlanet

[BKW]

10 hours ago, Thatmustache said:

It seems that either the Sherman or the Sherman Max may be calling my name!

If I were to guess, the regular sherman will be harder to find once the sherman max takes hold of the market. For example, ehweels will no longer be selling anything but the sherman max, so now might be the time to buy older versions of the sherman for a cheaper price if that's what you want. You'll probably see a lot of used ones up for sale as well as time goes on.

[.....]

1 minute ago, bkw said:

If I were to guess, the regular sherman will be harder to find once the sherman max takes hold of the market. For example, ehweels will no longer be selling anything but the sherman max, so now might be the time to buy older versions of the sherman for a cheaper price if that's what you want. You'll probably see a lot of used ones up for sale as well as time goes on.

Sweet! So in a couple years, the original sherman will become a collectors model. Kinda sucks tho, it means I neednt crash it.

[BKW]

16 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Sweet! So in a couple years, the original sherman will become a collectors model. Kinda sucks tho, it means I neednt crash it.

Wild guess on my part. I could be completely wrong too!

[Planemo]

55 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Sweet! So in a couple years, the original sherman will become a collectors model. Kinda sucks tho, it means I neednt crash it.

Well you kinda have a point there. The version I have is the last of what I call the proper Old Skool 18650 wheels with the cells I love - Sanyo GA. Also, in a 10P format. The later versions went to 21700's in a 6P(??) format? I'm not sure what P the Max is either.

As a result I get a massive feelgood factor in terms of headroom and it feels as strong as an Ox to me.

I know the 21700's can output more current per cell (sometimes) so less P isnt always an issue but I just love the GA's, I had them in my 100v 1860wh MSX too.

[alcatraz]

Begode Master? 

[Patrick Robert]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:32 AM, Planemo said:

I'm not sure what P the Max is either.

3600 Wh wheels like the Sherman Max will be 8p, they have 192 cells.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Patrick Robert

[Thatmustache]

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the Sheman Max is worth it over the regular Sherman? Meaning is it worth the price increase considering what it offers? Are do some of you think that the Gen 3 Sherman is more worth it?

Edited March 11, 2022 by Thatmustache

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Thatmustache said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the Sheman Max is worth it over the regular Sherman? Meaning is it worth the price increase considering what it offers? Are do some of you think that the Gen 3 Sherman is more worth it?

I think that is a very good question tbh. On the face of it I would certainly desire the extra Wh but then after thinking about it, I will still need to do a top-up charge during a full days ride, the same as I do now with my 'old' Sherman. So in reality I'm not sure I would really gain much benefit from an extra 400Wh. Depends on the riders usual distance requirements I guess. For more range to work for me, I would like to be nearer 4000Wh to make it worthwhile. FWIW, I don't need the extra motor power of the Max either.

I paid around £2350 for my Sherman. The Max is £2800 now from the same vendor. They don't offer the older wheel now, so it could be an issue buying one anyway?

[BKW]

2 hours ago, Thatmustache said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the Sheman Max is worth it over the regular Sherman? Meaning is it worth the price increase considering what it offers? Are do some of you think that the Gen 3 Sherman is more worth it?

The way I look at it, yes. Yes because the older shermans are also going up in price. If you look on Aliexpress -- one of the cheapest distributors for USA -- you will see the version 3 sherman is now at around $3,200, and the sherman max on Aliexpress is $3,500. This will also reflect the rest of the market as well unfortunately. The price for the sherman is increasing, both new and old. If you are looking for a sherman in the 2K range your best best is to get an older one from a private seller. Also, there have been many improvements for the extra $300: a stronger rim, a bigger battery, more torque, waterproof screen protector, bigger gauge wires for more amperage and safer ride,etc. Just those reasons alone justify a $300 jump form the Gen 3, especially considering how pricey things go in the EUC world.

Tbh, I almost want to stop hyping up the sherman so I can get my preorder first before other people start putting their preorders in lol. It's a VERY expensive wheel, yes. To me, it's worth it. If I had an older sherman, however, I would not upgrade, but since I don't have a sherman at all, and considering the prices increases across the board, it's worth it to me.

This is probably the last I'll hype about the sherman max because I am serious when I say I want to get mine before anymore price increases or preorders, so I don't really want to encourage anyone else anymore than I have to -- yeah, pretty selfish, and probably not even realistic, but true!

The one thing I've heard about the Max that is less than the older shermans is the top speed, but by maybe 2-3mph at most, which is negligible to me.

HOWEVER, THIS WHEEL HAS NOT YET BEEN TESTED BY ENOUGH RIDERS YET, so all these improvements might be duds. But considering the reputation of the sherman company, I think it'll be honest improvements, which will only be confirmed by riders when the wheel hits mass market soon.

Edited March 11, 2022 by bkw

[Planemo]

15 hours ago, bkw said:

there have been many improvements for the extra $300: a stronger rim, a bigger battery, more torque, waterproof screen protector, bigger gauge wires for more amperage and safer ride,etc. Just those reasons alone justify a $300 jump form the Gen 3

Thats a good point tbf, if the difference is only $300 (or even if it was £300) and I didn't have a V3 already I would deffo go for the V4, if only for the newer rim and handiness of the bigger battery. I don't think bigger wires are a massive requirement (do V3's burn out their wires? I don't recall any) and the V3 screen is waterproof anyway.

But as suggested, if you can get a good deal on a used V3 then I would seriously consider it. If you could save around $1000 it would be very tempting as they are proven and reliable if you discount the older rim (which I have had zero problems with myself).

[Paradox]

The switch to hollow bore motors on the Max should be mentioned.  This should be a plus but as we all know some roll outs of them on other wheels have been problematic.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Paradox

[BKW]

4 hours ago, Paradox said:

The switch to hollow bore motors on the Max should be mentioned.  This should be a plus but as we all know some roll outs of them on other wheels have been problematic.

Hm, didn't know that. Good info!

[Paradox]

7 minutes ago, bkw said:

Hm, didn't know that. Good info!

Here is a video of the Abrams motor.  Watch it for about a minute and 30 seconds  from the pasted time and Dennis talks about the Max too. 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by Paradox

[BKW]

I search YouTube daily for new Sherman Max videos. This is one of the few guys who own the sherman max and has videos of it. If you read the comments in his videos he answers pretty much all questions related to the Max I can think of:

 

[Paradox]

 

[BKW]

^^^ I like Hsiang reviews. It's all somewhat a personal opinion to varying degree, but good nonetheless. Pointing out the obvious: the sherman in this video is an older version, and not the Max. The S20 design may look cooler, depending on who you talk to -- I like the lower profile look of the sherman myself -- but build quality I don't think the S20 is as robust as the sherman. Also, the S20 has a kill switch, whereas the sherman does not, which is a very nice feature to have to lift on curbs or stairs without powering off the wheel. I like how Hsiang mentioned keeping high speed with the S20 as more sustainable because of the suspension, which is something that makes sense. At the end of the day, the main two difference between the two wheels is range (sherman) vs suspension (s20).