Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 @SirGeraint here a pic of the BMS board on the new battery packs. This may help as an aid. The old packs don't have the HV and the LV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 Since when are this used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomek Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 what is HV/LV used for? interesting to see that P-/P+ are directly connected to the cells, absolutely no protection on the discharge side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 1 minute ago, Tomek said: what is HV/LV used for? interesting to see that P-/P+ are directly connected to the cells, absolutely no protection on the discharge side... It's more like a balancing board. Buy battery packs from 1Radwerkstatt and you get real BMS stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomek Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 10 minutes ago, OliverH said: It's more like a balancing board. Buy battery packs from 1Radwerkstatt and you get real BMS stuff. I meant it as a good thing in a way, NO battery cutoff possible whatsoever .') Does 1Radwerkstatt have cutoff in their BMS, or do they have some other (safer for the rider) protection place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 17 minutes ago, Tomek said: I meant it as a good thing in a way, NO battery cutoff possible whatsoever .') Does 1Radwerkstatt have cutoff in their BMS, or do they have some other (safer for the rider) protection place? As I understand yes, but low voltage. Maybe @1RadWerkstatt explains it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share Posted February 3, 2016 8 hours ago, OliverH said: Since when are this used? Since November. Yes. Supposedly no cutoff possible except for over speed due to volt cutout. There's just no cure for that. 7 hours ago, Tomek said: what is HV/LV used for? interesting to see that P-/P+ are directly connected to the cells, absolutely no protection on the discharge side... Still no sure about that, haven't had a response from Gotway on this. Asked twice already. It's high and low voltage. I would love to know exactly what the purpose of having those 4 wires, smaller gauged connected to both battery packs do? That must increase the resistance of flow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted February 3, 2016 Share Posted February 3, 2016 4 hours ago, NevNutz said: Still no sure about that, haven't had a response from Gotway on this. Asked twice already. It's high and low voltage. I would love to know exactly what the purpose of having those 4 wires, smaller gauged connected to both battery packs do? That must increase the resistance of flow. Just guessing, they could be some signals for the mainboard when voltage rises too high (overcharge due to regenerative braking) or too low (overdischarged), so the mainboard logics can react to these. As for the resistance, the "main" discharge wires go parallel, so these should have no effect, or even if they did, they would slightly lower the resistance, not rise it (more parallel paths for the current to travel -> less resistance in total). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomek Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 if @esaj is correct in his guesses this might mean another significant step in EUC safety evolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranium Posted February 5, 2016 Share Posted February 5, 2016 Since we are speculating here.....My guess is that the wires feed into the Charge Controller logic to allow a rough balancing between battery packs if one goes a little lower. Since the board is single sided, it could be traced out to determine the exact function if someone wanted to spend some time on it. The picture above doesn't quite have the detail needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 On 2/3/2016 at 2:37 AM, NevNutz said: @SirGeraint here a pic of the BMS board on the new battery packs. This may help as an aid. The old packs don't have the HV and the LV. @NevNutz Sorry, I just noticed this new thread (I've been busy elsewhere). Do you recommend that I buy a SM-4P connector and cut away just enough of the heat wrap from my original, good battery pack to solder it on? Then I could connect it to the new, replacement battery pack. I really appreciate your help with this. I'd still like to know if making a Y-Adapter so that the output from the 1st battery pack could go directly to the Controller board as well as on to the 2nd battery pack would cause any problem. I don't like that there's only one power connection to the Controller Board which is a Single Point of Failure. Previously there were 2 power connections to the Controller Board. I've also wondered if I should just replace the XT-60 input wires with a SM-2P and small wires (like the 1st battery pack has) and charge them both through SM-2P connections (like how it originally was). Then the XT-60 output from the 1st battery pack could go directly to the Controller Board. If I did this I wouldn't need the Y-Adapter. Thoughts on that? Which is my best course of action? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted February 8, 2016 Share Posted February 8, 2016 @SirGeraint There is this SM-2P connector in the photo that you didn't mentioned before which clearly used for charging. If it does exist, use it as before for charge. If it does not exist, then your battery is not the same as anyone or the SM-2P connector had been cut. As for what the HV/LV used for, my guesses are: 1. To power the mainboard such as MPU or gyro part, which is more critical for power cut or fluctuation 2. To measure the total voltage of the battery pack more precisely since there is no or less voltage drop compared to the main discharge path. 3. To communicate from battery pack to the mainboard indicating battery status such as percentage power left, whether any cell is bad/critical low, or battery temperature. The improvements of the new BMS over the old that I can see: --- add a 4-wire connector --- much better charge route as it is shorter and with thicker stripe. It will withstand 5A charge current (if the MOS and battery can withstand) --- the board become single sided(at least from the part shown), This will make it easy for trouble shoot ans repair, less dangerous for short circuit, and lower the cost. Anybody know what that "ES" stand for? External Sense? They seems connected to HV/LV as well. Another question, how could those SM-4P connectors connect if there are more than one battery pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 @SirGeraint That would be an accident waiting to happen if you replace the thicker wires of the XT-60 to a SM-2P. Those two cant connect to each other. You will probably get a nice fireworks show from doing that. As for the SM-4P connector, each batteries BMS is supposed to have 4-wires, two black and two red. Both batteries are connected this way. For what, I'm unsure. Never got a direct answer from Gotway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 15 hours ago, NevNutz said: @SirGeraint That would be an accident waiting to happen if you replace the thicker wires of the XT-60 to a SM-2P. Those two cant connect to each other. You will probably get a nice fireworks show from doing that. As for the SM-4P connector, each batteries BMS is supposed to have 4-wires, two black and two red. Both batteries are connected this way. For what, I'm unsure. Never got a direct answer from Gotway. @NevNutz, I don't think you are understanding. Originally both battery packs charged with SM-2P's. Now the new battery pack has to charge via the XT-60 input. This is the one I considered replacing with an SM-2P (so it would be like the original battery pack). That battery pack still has an XT-60 output connector. Neither of my original battery packs had an SM-4P. Let me describe them again. Original GOOD battery pack: SM-2P & XT-60 Original BAD battery pack: SM-2P & XT-60 New REPLACEMENT battery pack: SM-4P, XT-60 Female, XT-60 Male So the original questions still apply. Plus, How would YOU connect this new battery pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 On 2/8/2016 at 3:00 AM, zlymex said: @SirGeraint There is this SM-2P connector in the photo that you didn't mentioned before which clearly used for charging. If it does exist, use it as before for charge. If it does not exist, then your battery is not the same as anyone or the SM-2P connector had been cut. As for what the HV/LV used for, my guesses are: 1. To power the mainboard such as MPU or gyro part, which is more critical for power cut or fluctuation 2. To measure the total voltage of the battery pack more precisely since there is no or less voltage drop compared to the main discharge path. 3. To communicate from battery pack to the mainboard indicating battery status such as percentage power left, whether any cell is bad/critical low, or battery temperature. The improvements of the new BMS over the old that I can see: --- add a 4-wire connector --- much better charge route as it is shorter and with thicker stripe. It will withstand 5A charge current (if the MOS and battery can withstand) --- the board become single sided(at least from the part shown), This will make it easy for trouble shoot ans repair, less dangerous for short circuit, and lower the cost. Anybody know what that "ES" stand for? External Sense? They seems connected to HV/LV as well. Another question, how could those SM-4P connectors connect if there are more than one battery pack? @zlymex, the SM-4P's only connect the 2 battery packs so I don't think they help the mainboard in any way. Only one XT-60 goes to the controller board. The way they are supposed to connect is the first battery pack has a SM-2P for charging, an XT-60 to charge the 2nd battery pack and the SM-4P of one gender connects to the SM-4P of the 2nd battery pack. You see these style of battery packs have different connectors that the style I had. My battery packs originally had the same connectors. But with the new style it goes like this. 1st battery pack: SM-2P, SM-4P, XT-60 (charges through SM-2P) 2nd battery pack: SM-4P, XT-60 Female, XT-60 Male (charges through XT-60) I wish I knew which course of action I should take. Basically there are 4 choices. 1) Make my 1st B.Pack like the new style by adding an SM-4P. 2) Make my 2nd B. Pack like the OLD style by making it charge through an SM-2P. 3) Leave both battery packs mismatched like they are now. 4) Leave both battery packs mismatched like they are now and add a Y-Adapter so the output of the 1st B.P. can go to the Controller Board as well as to charge the 2nd battery pack. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomek Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I would never charge one battery pack through another, and information above is not useful if we don't know how the plugs on both batteries are connected to the BMSes. what you need is: C- and C+ of BOTH BMSes connected to the charging plug (in parallel) and P- and P+ of BOTH BMSes connected (in parallel) to the motor controller (thick cables, xt60 plugs). if it's all wired via a Y-cable or via one battery having male&famale xt60 (both connected to P- and P+!) is your choice. since nobody here knows what hv lv is i would avoid using those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 6 hours ago, SirGeraint said: @NevNutz, I don't think you are understanding. Originally both battery packs charged with SM-2P's. Now the new battery pack has to charge via the XT-60 input. This is the one I considered replacing with an SM-2P (so it would be like the original battery pack). That battery pack still has an XT-60 output connector. Neither of my original battery packs had an SM-4P. Let me describe them again. Original GOOD battery pack: SM-2P & XT-60 Original BAD battery pack: SM-2P & XT-60 New REPLACEMENT battery pack: SM-4P, XT-60 Female, XT-60 Male So the original questions still apply. Plus, How would YOU connect this new battery pack? @SirGeraint Now I understand you better. What was the issue with the Oringinal BAD battery pack? Was it bad cells, bad BMS, unknown? Well, based on what you have, I would have to agree with @Tomek You should just hook it up the old way. Use your current y connectors originally connecting the batteries in parallel. You just need to solder on the SM-2P connector and be done with it. Just electric tape the XT-60 connector and the SM-4P connector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlymex Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 12 hours ago, SirGeraint said: 2nd battery pack: SM-4P, XT-60 Female, XT-60 Male Now I understand. Obviously the charge connector is missing. I suggest that you contact Gotway to solve the problem. Cut open the shrink wrap will void the warranty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 10 hours ago, zlymex said: Now I understand. Obviously the charge connector is missing. I suggest that you contact Gotway to solve the problem. Cut open the shrink wrap will void the warranty. @zlymex The charge connector on the second pack is missing because the second pack is being charged through the first pack with the SM-2P connector. The new packs are like this now so that there is no need for y connectors to hook up two batteries. That's why they have one female XT-60 and one male XT-60 on the second pack. I'm assuming that they are still connected in parallel through the BMS. That SM-4P connector which connects between both battery packs must regulate the charge coming in to the second pack. That's my guess anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirGeraint Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 21 minutes ago, NevNutz said: @zlymex The charge connector on the second pack is missing because the second pack is being charged through the first pack with the SM-2P connector. The new packs are like this now so that there is no need for y connectors to hook up two batteries. That's why they have one female XT-60 and one male XT-60 on the second pack. I'm assuming that they are still connected in parallel through the BMS. That SM-4P connector which connects between both battery packs must regulate the charge coming in to the second pack. That's my guess anyways. @NevNutz, Right, the first pack is charged through the SM-2P and the second pack is charged from the XT-60 output to an XT-60 input. This was how Gotway showed me to connect it. Unfortunately they also assumed that both battery packs were the new style and had SM-4P connectors (which mine didn't). The SM-4P probably is for some kind of balancing. I haven't been able to use it since my battery pack didn't have one. I have been having trouble getting Gotway to understand the problem. I think the warranty on the battery is just 6 months. If so, it's over half over. I might just have to risk it and cut away the heat shrink. I don't know why Gotway changed but I like the old way of connecting them better. But since it's the old way one would assume the new way must be better some how. I will buy a SM-2P connector and put it back the old way. Thanks for all the help @NevNutz and @zlymex. Oh, I almost forgot to answer. My bad battery pack had a bad BMS (see the attached picture) that damaged 4 of the batteries. I feel I am lucky that it didn't catch on fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted February 10, 2016 Author Share Posted February 10, 2016 @SirGeraint I see, well you might want to full discharge the battery pack if you didn't already. Then you can dispose of it safely in the trash can so that there is not risk of it catching fire. heres a link from hobby people. might be of some help. http://www.hobbypeople.net/media/uploads/LiPo-Battery-Safety-Guide.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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