EUCs can be dangerous

[supercurio]

9 hours ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Here is a very nice clip you guys can watch.

@Mike Sacristan makes a lot of good points in this messages.

I can't understand the madness of it and am happy I'm not expected to live by these rules. Traveling around NYC on anything but a car looks like madness.
To me, it seems like a blend of art, barely civilized insanity as standard, but I'm sure it can be become your normal if you get used to it.

I agree that this is so foreign that other rules someone else is used to don't really apply. It doesn't mean I like it and think it's smart, but it also means I'm not in a position to judge just like a culture can't judge another one - considering itself superior.

Since the whole city seems to be full of these terrible street/road multi-lane, interrupted by red lights, turns and merging "stroads", the only real quick and effective way to move around appears to be by flowing around cars, replacing common sense and respect for the rules by mad skills.

I'm sure it's not specific to NYC of course, the same applies to all cities with similar infrastructure.

 

Agree with Mike, it helps to put in context by highlighting that the reckless EUC riding we can observe in some videos is nothing new. It's kind of a "genre"

Terry Barentsen's YouTube channel documents this with amazing videography, including in the video Mike showed, of which the (high quality 4k source) is

His channel shows him, friends and more practice the same in various countries like in Mexico in Death Wish. It's both terrifying and fascinating to watch. The channel also shows many sub-cultures around vehicles in the city like in the YOU WITH US? masterpiece.

Edited March 18, 2022 by supercurio

[Skeptikos]

Well, I guess this is going to be a stalemate because I'm too tired to post any more about this. Still seems utterly bizarre to me, like 3/4 of the forum is about EUC mechanics and the other 1/4 is a neverending obsession with 3 dudes in NYC who run stoplights. I don't know, hopefully I can make it another 3 months without getting into this argument. Dear god, this is a cursed topic.

[Guest]

I spent time, i saw the videos by 'live', he don't a place in the street, a danger for people. We have not the same definition of sport , liberty time, gaming, plesure.

[Bizra6ot]

1 hour ago, Skeptikos said:

Well, I guess this is going to be a stalemate because I'm too tired to post any more about this. Still seems utterly bizarre to me, like 3/4 of the forum is about EUC mechanics and the other 1/4 is a neverending obsession with 3 dudes in NYC who run stoplights. I don't know, hopefully I can make it another 3 months without getting into this argument. Dear god, this is a cursed topic.

Yeah and the funniest thing is that the most active people who are constantly going on and on about this every day are riding in the UK or AUS where the wheels are totally illegal with no grey areas just illegal, so pretty funny what's wrong with these people...

[Mike Sacristan]

12 hours ago, supercurio said:

 

His channel shows him, friends and more practice the same in various countries like in Mexico in Death Wish. It's both terrifying and fascinating to watch. The channel also shows many sub-cultures around vehicles in the city like in the YOU WITH US? masterpiece.

That was quite a find. And quite uncomfortable for me to watch haha.

[mrelwood]

 

13 hours ago, supercurio said:

I agree that this is so foreign that other rules someone else is used to don't really apply. It doesn't mean I like it and think it's smart, but it also means I'm not in a position to judge just like a culture can't judge another one - considering itself superior.

I find it interesting that you mentioned rules. The aspects that bug me in the Alleycat race and a few NYC riders is exactly that, that they don’t abide to the local rules. Red light has the same exact meaning all over the world. so does the directionality of traffic lanes. And so is the purpose of a crosswalk. I’m sure there are differences in how much law breaking is normal in each culture, but the Alleycat racers ignores all of them for nothing more than personal pleasure.

 And it’s very clear from the videos as well that other members of the local traffic aren’t doing that. So it’s not a dominant local culture. It’s only those EUC riders that are applying their own rules of their illegal underground culture, expecting it to be ok.

 

13 hours ago, supercurio said:

the only real quick and effective way to move around appears to be by flowing around cars, replacing common sense and respect for the rules by mad skills.

Is the only real quick and effective way to move around ok if it’s illegal and against the local culture? To me it’s not. There’s often a faster illegal way to do things. For example, the only quick and effective way to get an EUC is to steal one.

Although, that is besides the point, since the beef here is with the racers. Racing from a checkpoint to another is not a need, it’s done purely for fun. Moving around the city for one’s ch

ores is another matter.

 

37 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Yeah and the funniest thing is that the most active people who are constantly going on and on about this every day are riding in the UK or AUS where the wheels are totally illegal with no grey areas just illegal, so pretty funny what's wrong with these people...

I hope the above was a joke and you actually do realize the difference between harmless resistance of a questionable, dated and conflicting law, and endangering others and the whole hobby for other riders for nothing but a one time little fun.

[redsnapper]

 We had the Hatfields and the McCoys; Tesla vs Edison; Gore Vidal vs William F Buckley; Ali vs Frazier; Bush vs Gore; Biggie vs Tupac; Hogan vs MachoMan; Trump vs Obama; Trump vs Hilary; Trump vs Biden; Trump vs CNN; Trump vs Twitter;  Trump vs NYTimes; Trump vs Bezos; Trump vs Facebook; Trump vs Washington Post; Trump vs Comey; Trump vs McCabe; Trump vs Barr; Trump vs McConnell; Trump vs Stormy Daniels; Trump vs Cohen; Trump vs Tillerson; Trump vs Gen McRaven; Trump vs Gen McMaster; Trump vs Gen McCrystal;  Trump vs Gen Mattis; Trump vs Pence; Trump vs the map of the projected path of Hurricane Dorian; Trump vs Covid; Trump vs __________ - but these pale in the gargantuan shadow of the epic Battle Royale over the NYC UNICIDE Squad! A like barrage of quotes & counter-quotes, of thrust and parry, of tit for tat, may ne'er be seen again and will assuredly be held up as the pinnacle all other feuds will be measured against... Guys - thanks for the memories 

 

 

Edited March 19, 2022 by redsnapper

[LanghamP]

On 3/19/2022 at 5:19 AM, mrelwood said:

I find it interesting that you mentioned rules. The aspects that bug me in the Alleycat race and a few NYC riders is exactly that, that they don’t abide to the local rules. Red light has the same exact meaning all over the world. so does the directionality of traffic lanes. And so is the purpose of a crosswalk. I’m sure there are differences in how much law breaking is normal in each culture, but the Alleycat racers ignores all of them for nothing more than personal pleasure.

 And it’s very clear from the videos as well that other members of the local traffic aren’t doing that. So it’s not a dominant local culture. It’s only those EUC riders that are applying their own rules of their illegal underground culture, expecting it to be ok.

My impression of these Alleycat races, and hardcore urban bicyclists/PEV in general, is that breaking the local traffic laws is the point. A big massive middle-finger to the Man, the Establishment, to Car Kulture. It's a form of understandable rebellion that's hard for a lot of people to articulate because car culture is now so ingrained from before living memory, but people who ride bicycles and PEV instinctively know there's something wrong with allowing the least efficient form of transportation be the dominant form of transportation.

Urbanity! estimated the total space devoted to bicycle infrastructure came to about 2.5% of the infrastructure devoted to cars in a city like NYC. I mean, when you have one-way streets, right turn on red, public on-street car storage for dockless autos, free public charging on on-street car storage, narrow sidewalks but wide roads, felonies for turnstile jumpers but not for parking tickets, etc...then it's hard to see how NYC is anything but an automobile's paradise. The massive traffic jams, by the way, are a result of said paradise.

The law binds but does not protect.

The law protects but does not bind.

Which group are drivers in? Which group are bicyclists/PEV's in?

[techyiam]

3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

My impression of these Alleycat races, and hardcore urban bicyclists/PEV in general, is that breaking the local traffic laws is the point. A big massive middle-finger to the Man, the Establishment, to Car Kulture. It's a form of understandable rebellion that's hard for a lot of people to articulate because car culture is now so ingrained from before living memory, but people who ride bicycles and PEV instinctively know there's something wrong with allowing the least efficient form of transportation be the dominant form of transportation.

Your argument fails to be convincing, because your main premise fails to differentiate between rebelling with, and without the preservation of public safety. It is one thing for hundreds of cyclists traveling down streets to give a protest-like impression to the public, and another for one individual cyclist to race towards a red light hollering as he attempts to cross a fully occupied cross walk at speed.

In the former, they could be breaking laws, but largely no one is getting hurt, nor being endangered. It is not uncommon to have police presence too. There is no reason why people cannot get their point across, and not endanger the public at large. The latter is simply an individual reflecting on his own selfish self, with very little regards or even no regards for the safety of others. It is not a valid excuse to use the line "but no one got hurt so far", since the pedestrians were forced to take emergency evasive action to minimize injuries and damage. In other words, the pedestrians were endangered.

 

3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Urbanity! estimated the total space devoted to bicycle infrastructure came to about 2.5% of the infrastructure devoted to cars in a city like NYC. I mean, when you have one-way streets, right turn on red, public on-street car storage for dockless autos, free public charging on on-street car storage, narrow sidewalks but wide roads, felonies for turnstile jumpers but not for parking tickets, etc...then it's hard to see how NYC is anything but an automobile's paradise. The massive traffic jams, by the way, are a result of said paradise.

Circular Reasoning Fallacy.

Edited April 11, 2022 by techyiam

[LanghamP]

13 hours ago, techyiam said:

Your argument fails to be convincing, because your main premise fails to differentiate between rebelling with, and without the preservation of public safety. It is one thing for hundreds of cyclists traveling down streets to give a protest-like impression to the public, and another for one individual cyclist to race towards a red light hollering as he attempts to cross a fully occupied cross walk at speed.

I didn't know bicyclists were such a danger to people. You've now convinced me that, indeed, bicyclists running red like are a menace to society, and should be harshly punished.

Please explain to me how I made the error of circular reasoning. My mistake eludes me.

[techyiam]

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I didn't know bicyclists were such a danger to people. You've now convinced me that, indeed, bicyclists running red like are a menace to society, and should be harshly punished.

Strawman Argument Fallacy 

 

7 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Please explain to me how I made the error of circular reasoning. My mistake eludes me.

1. A is true because B is true;
2. B is true because A is true.

1. "Many Drivers" is true because Paradise is true.

2. Paradise is true because "Many Drivers" (gridlock) is true. 

[UniMe]

I've turned the cranks on a bike a few times in my life... the NYC fixed gear ride is sporting and fun to watch. It also keeps with my understanding of the city, and the culture i.e. keep your head up at all times! especially if you're a child in a crosswalk lol

From where I sit, the guy's just giving it a go, showing off a bit for the trailing camera, but at least he's not slinging crack and doing real violence.

I've also seen some absolutely terrifying videos of people on motorcycles lane splitting, but at much higher speeds.

Don't know where the thread started, didn't scroll back that far, but thanks for this entertaining cycling video.

One of my favorite motoring experiences was driving through Sicily, traffic laws optional! Drive in the middle, on the right, fast, slow, between, whatever... just be prepared to back it up if someone starts screaming at you lol

[LanghamP]

9 hours ago, techyiam said:

Strawman Argument Fallacy 

 

1. A is true because B is true;
2. B is true because A is true.

1. "Many Drivers" is true because Paradise is true.

2. Paradise is true because "Many Drivers" (gridlock) is true. 

No good can come  from this person.

[techyiam]

9 hours ago, LanghamP said:

No good can come  from this person.

ad hominem fallacy

[UniMe]

It seems my fellow countryman may have taken a philosophy course or two and wants to practice identifying flawed argument types

What's the failed logic in this statement: nobody cares , beyond being an informal fallacy and faulty generalization. Or this one: a forum is a safe way to act like a pedantic lunatic because there are no real life consequences hahaha!!

[Mike Sacristan]

My favorite fallacy in this thread is the fallacy fallacy. 

[techyiam]

32 minutes ago, UniMe said:

It seems my fellow countryman may have taken a philosophy course or two and wants to practice identifying flawed argument types

What's the failed logic in this statement: nobody cares , beyond being an informal fallacy and faulty generalization. Or this one: a forum is a safe way to act like a pedantic lunatic because there are no real life consequences hahaha!!

Simply that the actions of some Alleycat racers who ride recklessly, while breaking laws, and endangering other road users, purely for selfish reasons are not defensible.

Edited April 12, 2022 by techyiam

[LanghamP]

40 minutes ago, UniMe said:

It seems my fellow countryman may have taken a philosophy course or two and wants to practice identifying flawed argument types

What's the failed logic in this statement: nobody cares , beyond being an informal fallacy and faulty generalization. Or this one: a forum is a safe way to act like a pedantic lunatic because there are no real life consequences hahaha!!

Speaking of pedantic and pointless irreverent arguments, I just got a KS18xl to replace my KS16s of nearly 9,000 miles. Do you like yours? Ride it much?

This will be my first EUC in nearly 6 years.

[Paul A]

Gotway MCM5 EUC Crash at 25 MPH

456 views

Apr 12, 2022

sevin7

416 subscribers

 

 

[supercurio]

MCM5 is a dangerous wheel because its beeps are so incredibly quiet.

I urge any of its riders to use app alarms. If you ride one and not have crashed yet: respect!

[Paul A]

Take special note of the incident from time mark 3.34.

 

 

[RockyTop]

18 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I just got a KS18xl to replace my KS16s of nearly 9,000 miles. Do you like yours? Ride it much?

This will be my first EUC in nearly 6 years.

 Welcome to 2019. … The good old days. Can I join you! 

Seriously tho, If I had to pick an older new wheel it would be the 18XL. Wheels come and go … except the 18XL, I’m keeping mine!!  
 

The funny thing is that my 18XL seems to be shrinking. It was my heaviest longest range wheel now it is my smallest regularly used wheel. 

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

 Welcome to 2019. … The good old days. Can I join you! 

Seriously tho, If I had to pick an older new wheel it would be the 18XL. Wheels come and go … except the 18XL, I’m keeping mine!!  
 

The funny thing is that my 18XL seems to be shrinking. It was my heaviest longest range wheel now it is my smallest regularly used wheel. 

I rode a Sherman in St Louis (kinda surprised the owner of it, apparently riders are rare) and I'm simply not a big-wheel person. I'm therefore happy I rode the Sherman so I know I'm not going to think about buying one.

But I'm blown away by the ease and quality of the Sherman. Surprisingly, I couldn't figure out how to ride it backwards which is absurd. It just hung there, seriously WTF?! Tried several times, could not for the life of me back it up. There was a man who invented a one wheeled motorcycle about a decade of more ago that never really went anywhere, and the Sherman reminds me of that bike.

[UniMe]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:34 PM, LanghamP said:

Speaking of pedantic and pointless irreverent arguments, I just got a KS18xl to replace my KS16s of nearly 9,000 miles. Do you like yours? Ride it much?

This will be my first EUC in nearly 6 years.

The short of a long story, I'll also probably join the ranks of riding my xl more in medium term future. The GW RS-HT I have... well, I'm spooked by it and haven't it ridden nearly as much as I would like. Battery fires... early version board so it toe dips.... I can imagine in my mind (perhaps manifesting reality) that I can hear the f'n bearing grind (version is notorious for bearing issues)... just dunno, seems like it was a waste of money. I was really hoping the KS S22 would be a good evolution, at 235 I'm a heavier rider so the S18 is probably too light. And in truth, I really want to bash off road on an EUC... !! I haven't given up hope yet, but I probably won't see a suspension wheel this calendar year the way things are going...

[Skeptikos]

On 3/19/2022 at 6:19 AM, mrelwood said:

I find it interesting that you mentioned rules. The aspects that bug me in the Alleycat race and a few NYC riders is exactly that, that they don’t abide to the local rules. Red light has the same exact meaning all over the world. so does the directionality of traffic lanes. And so is the purpose of a crosswalk. I’m sure there are differences in how much law breaking is normal in each culture, but the Alleycat racers ignores all of them for nothing more than personal pleasure.

And it’s very clear from the videos as well that other members of the local traffic aren’t doing that. So it’s not a dominant local culture. It’s only those EUC riders that are applying their own rules of their illegal underground culture, expecting it to be ok.

Now that I've chilled a bit let's try again.

It's becoming clear that a lot of this is a cultural misunderstanding, which starts to explain why the people most upset are strangely located on the opposite side of the globe.

So alleycat races are a NYC thing. It is part of NYC culture, and has been for decades. They're presented as a daring and mostly harmless countercultural event that showcases NYC's bike culture. I haven't heard much about people in NYC getting upset about it, probably because alleycat races are just a drop in the bucket in the context of NYC's normal, slow and chaotic traffic. (I mean seriously, do you guys realize how many people live in NYC? It's the most crowded place I've ever been by a huge margin, and the result is that NYC does not have normal traffic.) These races get lots of support. For example look at the Broadway Bomb-- this illegal race for skateboarders in NYC attracts thousands of attendees every year.

For all of us familiar with NYC, it's obvious that breaking "local" traffic rules is a "local" tradition there.

And running red lights is a common cyclist thing too. It's called an Idaho stop, and it's officially legal in several US states. Pretty much guaranteed that there are a bunch of cyclists doing this in NYC, legal or not.

So if you're from the US, and especially if you're from the NYC area, it's very clear that these events are drawing directly from NYC culture. Specifically, they're drawing on NYC's aggressive and adventurous cycling culture.

An open question for me is whether these aspects of NYC cycling culture should be applied to EUCs. Doing the same things on a motorcycle would be a lot scarier, and I could understand someone thinking that a Sherman should be treated like a motorcycle.

But instead the loudest naysayers seem to object to the entire concept of an alleycat race. From my perspective, getting upset about alleycat races breaking NYC traffic laws makes a person sound like an uptight killjoy, someone who isn't primarily concerned about safety and really just wants to be angry at people. It's just an odd thing to get upset about in the NYC context. There's already a lot of traffic law breaking in the normal background noise of NYC traffic. When you're calibrated to the context, EUC riders getting together to break traffic laws as a group once or twice a year hardly seems worth mentioning. And spending months debating it is just ... bizarre.